Update 40 Preview 1: Raid Loot Feedback Thread

[NarutoArgo]

You're comparing apples to oranges. Its hardly fair to compare preu37 loot with post u37 loot. There was a complete overall on the dice of endgame gear whereas 1d6 vs 1d6+6. Lets take the Gulthias Staff for example. This weapon is 5[1d6+6] and it isn't meant to mimic a weapon that has extremely high base damage. I understand that that is still higher than say the rapier from u37 which is 1d6+3, or even the khopesh which is 1d8+3, however, when factoring in crit profile both of them outperform.

Lets use your math but lets factor in feats since the crit range increase is different.
"A Staff of Shadows with 5[1d6+6] and a 19-20/x3 does (5 * 9.5 = 47.5) on a non-crit and (47.5 * 3 = 142.5) on a crit. On an average 20 hits, they will miss once (0), hit 18 times, and crit once. 18 hits (18 * 47.5 = 855) and 2 crit (2 * 285 = 142.5) make a total of 997.5 damage across 20 hits, for an average of 49.875 per hit."

Lets apply that same math to the khopesh or something with a similar to the crit profile of the ESOS that you guys are mimicking.
Calamity, with 5[1d6+3] and a 17-20x3 does (5 * 6.5 = 32.5) on a non-crit and (32.5 * 3 = 97.5) on a crit. So out of 20 hits you will have 3 crits on average and 16 hits. 16 hits (15 * 32.5 = 520) and 3 crits is (4 * 97.5 = 390) now lets take into consideration that most, if not all, of the other weapons have on hit damage. So using calamity 2d8 and crit damage that it has your looking at another 10 damage per hit and and average of 239.5 damage per crit which brings the numbers to (190+ 239.5 * 4 = 1,148). Taking this and with the base damage your looking at (1,148 + 520 + 390 = 2058) This isn't taking into consideration the disintegrate.


Im aware there are other weapons, most of which have at least 9d6 extra damage per hit, so that would be 31.5 damage per hit, or in other words 598.5 damage out of 20 attacks.


The staff doesn't compete.

I forgot to do the math on the staff if you were to give it 18-20 natural range. It would go from 997.5 in 20 attacks to 1282.5, still hardly competitive but better.

[NarutoArgo]

I appreciate the counter napkin math, here is some more double-counter napkin math

As you add additional proportional stats, the Damage of the Elemental Bloom approaches the damage of the Staff of Shadows, but can't take it. I am going to round to the nearest number for simplicity here:

0 damage/0 crit damage: 22 versus 50
20 damage/20 crit damage: 118 vs 158
200 damage/200 crit damage: 987 vs 1129
2000 damage/2000 crit damage: 9672 vs 10850

You would need to have 95 seeker to break the Elemental Bloom over the Staff of Shadows, assuming you also have literally 0 sources of bonus damage. Assuming a reasonable number for damage - the same one you picked, 75 (35 mod and 40 flat) - you would need roughly 330 seeker to break even. As base damage increases, you'll need proportionally more crit damage to mathematically equal them out.

You are once again comparing completely irrelevant things. Compare the staff to items that are on the same scale, U37-U40 items. Your goal is to balance the items in the raid with one another, not with an item from years ago that isn't even a raid item.

Try doing some napkin math on items that matter.

The fact that elemental bloom even comes close is even more reason to assume the new staff is absolute trash and should completely reworked.

I don't get how you don't see that a level 26 quest item being almost as strong as a U40 raid item that is level 29 with the new expanded base damage is not a ridiculously obvious issue. You alone are beating your own argument with such a terrible comparison.

[Chacka_DDO]

This is a great jumping off point into a post I should have made quite some time ago, but here's the mathematical proof that the current Staff of Shadows is better than Bloom in damage by a significant margin:

Assuming: the character is using completely equivalent gear/feats/everything when comparing these weapons, that 3.5 is the average of 1d6 and 9.5 is the average of 1d6+6, and in combat the character only misses on a 1:

An Epic Elemental Bloom with 5[1d6] and 18-20/x3 does (5 * 3.5 = 17.5) on a non-crit and (17.5 * 3 = 52.5) on a crit. On an average 20 hits, they will miss once (0), hit 16 times, and crit 3 times. 16 hits (16 * 17.5 = 280) and 3 crits (3 * 52.5 = 157.5) make a total of 473.5 damage across 20 hits, for an average of 21.875 per hit.

A Staff of Shadows with 5[1d6+6] and a 20/x3 does (5 * 9.5 = 47.5) on a non-crit and (47.5 * 3 = 142.5) on a crit. On an average 20 hits, they will miss once (0), hit 18 times, and crit once. 18 hits (18 * 47.5 = 855) and 1 crit (1 * 142.5 = 142.5) make a total of 997.5 damage across 20 hits, for an average of 49.875 per hit.

This is just my back of the napkin math, but the loaded dice more than compensate for relying on the base critical threat of a weapon.

So both players have only 10 strength and no deadly item nor any other effect that gives + to the damage at level 30?

A more realistic assumption is that you have more than +100 damage from such effects

Elemental Bloom 5[1d6]+100 and 17-20 x3
miss once (0)
you hit 15 times for 5*3.5+100 = 1762,5
you crit 4 times for (5*3.5+100)*3 = 1410
total of 3172

The Staff of Shadows 5[1d6+6]+100 and 19-20 x3
miss once = 0
you hit 17 times for 5*9.5+100 = 2507,5
you crit 2 times for (5*9.5+100)*3 =885
total of 3392,5

I know this is only a crude calculation because other effects also play in and in a more realistic scenario The Staff of Shadows would dominate more than in this calculation.
This also shows how powerful a change of the weapon dice is and you should do this only if you know what you do!

And just to mention it, if you have a crit range of 17-20 you crit on a 17,18,19 and 20 that is four crits on 20 tries and not three!
And if you do such math to evaluate how much damage a class does I'm not surprised anymore that you nerf Unarmed Strike...
And there is another interesting question:
So you would seriously bring out a weapon that does double the damage of a previous weapon because you trust in your calculation?

And also this shows how embarrassing it was to make Duality, the Moral Compass 7[1d6+6] because this clearly shows how low your (dev in general) understanding of the damage calculation really is.
Seemingly you (dev in general) just add some numbers here and there and hope everything will be alright.
And then after many wrong steps, you (dev in general) try to correct your mistakes with another mistake.
And to make matters worse, you (dev in general) seriously to tell us at the end it would be WAI.

And don't get me wrong I really apreciate your work for the game Lynnabel and also the other developers!
If I say you I mean the development in general and my impression of how accurate they do the important math for the game.
Accurate and solid math is the backbone of a game like DDO and apparently, SSG needs to hire someone else for this task.

[GramercyRiff]

The Staff of Shadows is essentially an adamantine great axe that won't break.

So yes, once again, please buff. It's a level 29 raid item.

I mean you guys made DUALITY. Break things. It's ok.

[lyrecono]

Feedback like this is great to read, but not as actionable as a few neat suggestions to work in instead of the Death Ward effect. What should the rage armor ward/guard/do instead of Energy Drain immunity? Give me suggestions!

i'll bite:

Mail of the Mroranon Medium Armor
Sheltering +52
Resistance 16
Fortification 208%
Your Rage provides you with Divine rage for its duration (a stacking +10 str and con during rage).
parry +9




this, because you guys neglected the augment system for years
as armors go, the extremely easy to get "Legendary Coat of the Traveler" offers a far better bang for your buck an is nearly a year old -->quest<-- item.

Why should anyone go through the pain of a raid when you can solo farm this on normal..... (seriously, a guildy got this in the first week on normal while he was farming sentient gems during the off hours)

ps, make the armor out of red dragonscales to resemble vela

[DeltaBravo]

It's not the job of itemization to fix balance problems between weapon styles, and overpumping this would be a big mistake. Ideally, each weapon style - and weapon - is matched in DPS or utility or some niche way versus each other. If you are worried that a Quarterstaff with appropriate dice (and the bonus I'll regret adding of a bonus crit mult) is not performing well versus a greatsword, we should buff Quarterstaves as a whole, not buff THIS quarterstaff to compensate for a class/weapon style/combat technique imbalance.

If I go 20000% on this and give it some absurd crit something, and in the future we change Quarterstaves by changing Thief Acrobat or Henshin or add a universal pole-vaulting tree, then we'll have to go back and firmly smack the Staff of Shadows with 14 individual nerfs and it'll be a whole thing and they'll be 20 pages of discussion about how we hate quarterstaves and pole-vaulting and the Olympics.

Could add something else then that does not add DPS on it then , since it seems so many people think it is under powerd compared to the other stuff in the list ?maybe add the shadow monster thingy that is also on some other item. ??
Give the user a hide bonus ?
Give the user blur ?
or maybe even cooler blur clikie.? Or shadow walk clikie ?

Dont have to be DPS thing that is added if you think it will become OP with a upgrade on DPS add something else ?

Allthough honestly.. Its a lvl 29 raid item for update 40.. and it got the name staff of shadows, i mean that kinda needs to be a tad OP. without being game breaking ofc. But imo. it really should be Darn nice DPS. PS. i think when you do calculations on weapon damge. I think you should actully go try the weapon rather then doing only pure math. And if you do the pure math.. make sure to do a max math calculation no a theocrafty calculation. But look at what a player that wanted to go all in on staff DPS would have. and i think you will find it very very close to other items at lower level and not raid items.
Just imo.

Cheers DB

[NarutoArgo]

And also this shows how embarrassing it was to make Duality, the Moral Compass 7[1d6+6] because this clearly shows how low your (dev in general) understanding of the damage calculation really is.
Seemingly you (dev in general) just add some numbers here and there and hope everything will be alright.
And then after many wrong steps, you (dev in general) try to correct your mistakes with another mistake.
And to make matters worse, you (dev in general) seriously to tell us at the end it would be WAI.

And don't get me wrong I really apreciate your work for the game Lynnabel and also the other developers!
If I say you I mean the development in general and my impression of how accurate they do the important math for the game.
Accurate and solid math is the backbone of a game like DDO and apparently, SSG needs to hire someone else for this task.

This is a great point. You guys are comparing a staff vs old gear but completely ignore all the current content. Even the most basic of math calculations put items in the new raids 2 or 3 times higher than the proposed damage from the staff of shadows. Adding some effects like wounding 5 and slay living dc 100 or something would balance the weapon and add a nice amount of flavor.

[DrawingGuy]

I appreciate the counter napkin math, here is some more double-counter napkin math

As you add additional proportional stats, the Damage of the Elemental Bloom approaches the damage of the Staff of Shadows, but can't take it. I am going to round to the nearest number for simplicity here:

0 damage/0 crit damage: 22 versus 50
20 damage/20 crit damage: 118 vs 158
200 damage/200 crit damage: 987 vs 1129
2000 damage/2000 crit damage: 9672 vs 10850

You would need to have 95 seeker to break the Elemental Bloom over the Staff of Shadows, assuming you also have literally 0 sources of bonus damage. Assuming a reasonable number for damage - the same one you picked, 75 (35 mod and 40 flat) - you would need roughly 330 seeker to break even. As base damage increases, you'll need proportionally more crit damage to mathematically equal them out.

Sorry, Lynnabel, you're missing the fact that crits affect most damage modifiers whereas the flat die increase remains flat. As things scale, crit profiles become more important. It would only take about 25 more seeker for Elemental Bloom to beat out Staff of Shadows, or about 35 more damage in modifiers. Perfectly achievable with end game items.

A 19-20 crit profile on the Staff of Shadows would place it far enough ahead the Elemental Bloom could never realistically catch up, and 18-20 would put it invariably ahead.

[Lynnabel]

Accurate and solid math is the backbone of a game like DDO and apparently, SSG needs to hire someone else for this task.

Ouch! Very harsh words, seriously. Feedback like that is unusably nonconstructive. However, you did happen to be right about one thing - I did make a serious napkin math mistake in my previous posts. I'm sure this mistake will totally blow over, though, and no one will ever hold it against me beyond this thread... right? :P

The relationships between the two weapons don't follow a non-intersecting curve, there is a breaking point at which the weapons do pass each other at certain damage/seeker and bonus crit threat relationships (somewhere in the +2 range +4 mult area when damage is roughly double the seeker value). If anything, though, you guys are convincing me to nerf the Elemental Bloom quarterstaff. If the existence of Elemental Bloom is inhibiting our ability to make raid loot, the problem is the original weapon, not our new weapon.

This is kind of the hole that DDO weaponry has been dug into over the last 12 years, and digging ourselves out of it will take a lot of time. I'm willing to die on the hill of "don't repeat past DDO mistakes," even if you guys hate me forever for it.

[NarutoArgo]

i'll bite:

Mail of the Mroranon Medium Armor
Sheltering +52
Resistance 16
Fortification 208%
Your Rage provides you with Divine rage for its duration (a stacking +6 str and con during rage).
parry +9




this, because you guys neglected the augment system for years
as armors go, the extremely easy to get "Legendary Coat of the Traveler" offers a far better bang for your buck an is nearly a year old -->quest<-- item.

Why should anyone go through the pain of a raid when you can solo farm this on normal..... (seriously, a guildy got this in the first week on normal while he was farming sentient gems during the off hours)

the +6 rage con and she bonus is an excellent suggestion and you devs should definitely listen to it.

[Grace_ana]

I appreciate the counter napkin math, here is some more double-counter napkin math

As you add additional proportional stats, the Damage of the Elemental Bloom approaches the damage of the Staff of Shadows, but can't take it. I am going to round to the nearest number for simplicity here:

0 damage/0 crit damage: 22 versus 50
20 damage/20 crit damage: 118 vs 158
200 damage/200 crit damage: 987 vs 1129
2000 damage/2000 crit damage: 9672 vs 10850

You would need to have 95 seeker to break the Elemental Bloom over the Staff of Shadows, assuming you also have literally 0 sources of bonus damage. Assuming a reasonable number for damage - the same one you picked, 75 (35 mod and 40 flat) - you would need roughly 330 seeker to break even. As base damage increases, you'll need proportionally more crit damage to mathematically equal them out.

No. Because a lot of the abilities we have available are extra damage or only available ON CRIT.

LD: Critical damage, devastating critical

DC: Purge the wicked, celestial champion

TA: Followthrough, staff specialization

Assassin: Lethality, critical mastery

Henshin: Serenity, void strike, staff specialization

Monk: fire stance

Kensai: Strike with no thought, one cut, critical mastery, a good death

NW: A true hunter, go for the kill

These are just some in the game, drawing from the classes (rogue, monk, fighter, druid) that are most likely to use a qstaff as their primary weapon (fighter because they can use anything, and they are often splashed for kensai). All of these abilities add to crit damage, either through straight crit damage added or additional crit multipliers (which of course only matter if you crit and act essentially as extra crit damage). Anything else that also adds damage - melee power, additional base damage, etc. - also applies to crits. So what happens is the high crit weapons will ultimately bypass the higher base damage weapon, unless the base damage is so significantly large as to be frankly ridiculous.

Your double-napkin math didn't take any of this into account. It just assumed crit damage would stay static in comparison to non-crit damage.

[NarutoArgo]

Ouch! Very harsh words, seriously. Feedback like that is unusably nonconstructive. However, you did happen to be right about one thing - I did make a serious napkin math mistake in my previous posts. I'm sure this mistake will totally blow over, though, and no one will ever hold it against me beyond this thread... right? :P

The relationships between the two weapons don't follow a non-intersecting curve, there is a breaking point at which the weapons do pass each other at certain damage/seeker and bonus crit threat relationships (somewhere in the +2 range +4 mult area when damage is roughly double the seeker value). If anything, you guys are convincing me to nerf the Elemental Bloom quarterstaff. If the existence of Elemental Bloom is inhibiting our ability to make raid loot, the problem is the original weapon, not our new weapon.

This is kind of the hole that DDO weaponry has been dug into over the last 12 years, and digging ourselves out of it will take a lot of time. I'm willing to die on the hill of "don't repeat past DDO mistakes," even if you guys hate me forever for it.

I mean this in the nicest of ways, but you guys are being ridiculous. Not a single person cares about how good elemental bloom is because it still miles behind the current content. You're comparing it to end game gear but if you put it up against anything but the terrible proposed staff of shadows it would fall extremely short. You're ignoring the issue of the staff being underperforming by trying to compare it to an old outdated useless item. There are plenty of ways to balance the staff of shadows withoutnincreases it's damage but you guys are ignoring it.

[Arkat]

If anything, you guys are convincing me to nerf the Elemental Bloom quarterstaff. If the existence of Elemental Bloom is inhibiting our ability to make raid loot, the problem is the original weapon, not our new weapon.

Why? There were never an over-abundance of Q-Staff Monks and Rogues running all over Eberron and the Forgotten Realms just destroying content with it. Elemental Bloom was fine for levels 26, 27, and 28. It was never an end-game weapon, though. Honestly, I prefer the Morninglord Q-Staff over Elemental Bloom.

This is kind of the hole that DDO weaponry has been dug into over the last 12 years, and digging ourselves out of it will take a lot of time. I'm willing to die on the hill of "don't repeat past DDO mistakes," even if you guys hate me forever for it.

You're taking this stuff too personally. Sure, some of the DDO Forum drama queens might make you feel like it's personal but you're not doing yourself any favors by taking their comments as such.

Slow down, take it easy, and breathe.


BTW...Grace_ana has a very good point a couple posts up. Just read it and think about it.

[Arriene]

I want to start this with a huge thankyou, and a well done on the loot so far - there are a whole bunch of interesting items, the general theme is cool, and overall this preview has me really excited for the loot to hit live. It's great to see how Lynnabel implemented some of the things that people asked for (and especially great to see Staff of Shadows, since a staff with a different crit profile was something I asked for).

Which means it's time to add another voice to the masses - this staff has some cool ideas going on (I can't describe how happy an indestructible quarterstaff makes me) but also looks really bare compared with all the fancy, shiny effects on other loot from this raid. With that in mind...

Will the indestructible-ness be made an obvious bonus on the item, or more of a hidden effect? Making it the first one would go a long way towards filling out the items box so that it looks less bland.

Critical stats. There are a lot of people calling for an increased threat range as well as the multiplier, which seems like something you're wary about implementing (for good reason, looking at the misbalance some old weapons with expanded crit profiles caused in their times). I was originally going to ask for the same, but there have been good points made against this - quarterstaffs as a weapon feel like they're in a weak place, and overtuning this to match other weapons will definitely cause problems should that change. As an option half-way between, thoughts on adding impact V? This would give it a stronger profile, without causing the same potential balance issues as an overtuned base profile, as well as giving it a solid bump in raw damage, to bring it more in line with other popular two handed weapons (Tail of the Scorpion and Tremor, I'm looking at you two)

As a side note, a couple of other people have already mentioned this, but with the different critical profiles of Elemental Bloom and Staff of Shadows, they scale differently with flat damage bonuses. Assuming a character with tier 5s in thief acrobat or henshin for the critical range and multiplier, improved critical, and pulverizer from legendary dreadnought, you're looking at Elemental Bloom having a 15-20/x4 profile, compared with the staff of shadows 17-20/x4. Going from this assumption, and sticking with the earlier ones of missing on a 1, and automatically confirming crits, your 20 average hits gives something more like:

Elemental Bloom misses once, hits normally 13 times, and crits 6 times. So you're doing ((1x0)+(13x1)+(6x4)) times base damage - 37
Staff of Shadows misses once, hits normally 15 times, and crits 4 times. You do ((1x0)+(15x1)+(4x4)) times base damage - 31

Following on from these numbers, and taking Y as flat damage boosts:
Elemental bloom does 37(Y+17.5) damage
Staff of Shadows does 31(Y+47.5) damage

This means they'll do equal damage when 37(Y+17.5)=31(Y+47.5). Solving for Y, we get:
37Y + 647.5 = 31Y + 1472.5
6Y = 825
Y = 137.5
In other words, once you have a damage bonus of 138 or higher, Elemental Bloom will start doing more damage. Seeker will push this number lower, since they favour the Elemental Bloom's higher profile, but +[W] effects will push it higher, with Staff of Shadows having higher base dice. Either way, Elemental Bloom will eventually overtake the Staff of Shadows in damage, it's just a case of when, and if that threshold is too high to be realistically achievable. So in Lynnabel's case of ignoring other damage effects, Staff of Shadows is unquestionably better, but it won't always be. (Also, someone please feel free to correct me if my maths is off, it's been a long day)

[Lynnabel]

Why? There were never an over-abundance of Q-Staff Monks and Rogues running all over Eberron and the Forgotten Realms just destroying content. Elemental Bloom was fine for the few levels 26, 27, 1nd 28. It was never an end-game weapon, though. Honestly, I prefer the Morninglord Q-Staff over Elemental Bloom.

That's a problem with the quarterstaff as a weapon, not a problem with THIS quarterstaff. If we overdo this quarterstaff, and then later on buff TA or Henshin, this quarterstaff would be too good. DDO has too bright of a future to use that approach. I don't ever want to kick problems down the cosmic road.

You're taking this stuff too personally.

Taking stuff too personally is my middle name.

It's hyphenated :P

In all seriousness, you're probably right. I overuse the royal "we" or "I" - it's a speech habit rather than a responsibility habit, trust me. I'm actually having a super great day, majorly embarrassing math problems aside XD

[tarrith_dourden]

The new runearm looks like it should fire chains not snowballs.

[J-mann]

Ouch! Very harsh words, seriously. Feedback like that is unusably nonconstructive. However, you did happen to be right about one thing - I did make a serious napkin math mistake in my previous posts. I'm sure this mistake will totally blow over, though, and no one will ever hold it against me beyond this thread... right? :P

The relationships between the two weapons don't follow a non-intersecting curve, there is a breaking point at which the weapons do pass each other at certain damage/seeker and bonus crit threat relationships (somewhere in the +2 range +4 mult area when damage is roughly double the seeker value). If anything, though, you guys are convincing me to nerf the Elemental Bloom quarterstaff. If the existence of Elemental Bloom is inhibiting our ability to make raid loot, the problem is the original weapon, not our new weapon.

This is kind of the hole that DDO weaponry has been dug into over the last 12 years, and digging ourselves out of it will take a lot of time. I'm willing to die on the hill of "don't repeat past DDO mistakes," even if you guys hate me forever for it.

Sorry lynn, but comparing to bloom is flat out wrong, nevermind the fact that ypur comparisons are nowhere near realistic. Please compare the weapons in a full build out at least, and i think you would be supprised to find how close the two are. (Not to mention you are totally ignoring the exras bloom gives) And this does not mean bloom is op, how many blooms do you see being used even before rl? Hint not very many. The issue is that this qstaff is so weak when compared to similar grade weapons (the greatswords) its funny how bad it is. Sorry, but 1 mult does not make up for 4 effects, not even close heck this is just a great ax with worse damage dice. This item needs more and yes heshine and ta need buffs, the nerf to heshines mp was really really poorly done.

[Requiro]

Ouch! Very harsh words, seriously. Feedback like that is unusably nonconstructive. However, you did happen to be right about one thing - I did make a serious napkin math mistake in my previous posts. I'm sure this mistake will totally blow over, though, and no one will ever hold it against me beyond this thread... right? :P

The relationships between the two weapons don't follow a non-intersecting curve, there is a breaking point at which the weapons do pass each other at certain damage/seeker and bonus crit threat relationships (somewhere in the +2 range +4 mult area when damage is roughly double the seeker value). If anything, though, you guys are convincing me to nerf the Elemental Bloom quarterstaff. If the existence of Elemental Bloom is inhibiting our ability to make raid loot, the problem is the original weapon, not our new weapon.

This is kind of the hole that DDO weaponry has been dug into over the last 12 years, and digging ourselves out of it will take a lot of time. I'm willing to die on the hill of "don't repeat past DDO mistakes," even if you guys hate me forever for it.

I'm quite disappointed Lynnabel. All what folks try to told you is that Critical profiles on weapons are ALWAYS better then flat dice increase. Some time ago Kheopesh was the king of any weapons. Just because critical profile.

[Iriale]

Ouch! Very harsh words, seriously. Feedback like that is unusably nonconstructive. However, you did happen to be right about one thing - I did make a serious napkin math mistake in my previous posts. I'm sure this mistake will totally blow over, though, and no one will ever hold it against me beyond this thread... right? :P

The relationships between the two weapons don't follow a non-intersecting curve, there is a breaking point at which the weapons do pass each other at certain damage/seeker and bonus crit threat relationships (somewhere in the +2 range +4 mult area when damage is roughly double the seeker value). If anything, though, you guys are convincing me to nerf the Elemental Bloom quarterstaff. If the existence of Elemental Bloom is inhibiting our ability to make raid loot, the problem is the original weapon, not our new weapon.

This is kind of the hole that DDO weaponry has been dug into over the last 12 years, and digging ourselves out of it will take a lot of time. I'm willing to die on the hill of "don't repeat past DDO mistakes," even if you guys hate me forever for it.

Old devs used to put an expanded critical range on the staffs because it's a weapon with no innate critical profile. It is very different to add critical range to weapons with innate critical range (that expand it even more), than to weapons without innate critical range (with that you only put them at the level of the rest of the weapons) Old designers understood that. That is why the named sticks had an expanded critical range, because staffs needed it to compete with the weapons that already have it!

Of course, there are other ways to balance the fact that the staff is a weapon with low base damage and no critical range. But your Staff of shadows does not have any of those forms.

Having said that, I inform you that today stick builds are miles away behind the rest of the dps builds.

One question, does the nerf monk follow the same reasoning that you have followed here with the critical damage? Because that explains a lot. The only thing that saved the dps of the unarmed monk, having no innate critical range, was having more base damage. Now that you are going to remove it, we will see where is the unarmed monk dps.

I will also tell you that the poor elemental bloom has no fault that the crits are op. Rather, blame all modifiers to the critical damage devs have added over the years. A lot of them. And with elemental bloom or without it, stick builds are practically an anecdote nowadays; so outdated are

[Aelonwy]

If anything, though, you guys are convincing me to nerf the Elemental Bloom quarterstaff. If the existence of Elemental Bloom is inhibiting our ability to make raid loot, the problem is the original weapon, not our new weapon.

I absolutely knew that was coming. I'm parking my quarterstaff rogue for the foreseeable future. I'll pull her out again in 2024 when you guys get back to tweaking the quarterstaff trees. Thanks.