Update 40 Preview 1: Raid Loot Feedback Thread

[cru121]

I am sure everyone was hoping that few more posters join the math show-off. So here I am.

Assuming the following crit profiles
Epic Elemental Bloom (18x3; 17x4 competence, 16x4 insight; 15x4 icrit
The Staff of Shadows (20x3; 19x4 competence, 18x4 insight, 17x4 icrit
Sireth (16x2; 15x3 competence, 14x3 icrit; no pulverizer)

Assuming 25 seeker

Epic Elemental Bloom and The Staff of Shadow break even at around +138 bonus damage.
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets...GvY/edit#gid=1

Other considerations:
* Sireth seems behind. It has dmg procs, but those get dwarfed by base damage multiplied by melee power.
* EEBloom gets better with more Seeker, more bonus damage, and in content where Paralyzing is useful.
* New staff gets better with extra [W]. New staff has also stronger glancing blows (those cannot crit, higher base dmg wins). New staff is stronger against fortified targets.

Few more considerations:
* Mauls and Great Axes are also 20/x3 weapons. Further increase of crit profile for the new staff might make it better than all mauls and great axes (while having more doublestrike and attack speed). Bad idea imho.

[legendkilleroll]

May only be r3 or so which i solo or duo, not r10 like all the forums seem to run but i love having my partner as a fury archer, boss fights are so much quicker, not saying they better than this build or that build nor do i really care whats the best at the meta but imo they arnt as terrible as some of you make out.

I know one of you runs in LD and tries to compete with the better sustained damage builds

Anyways, i like some of the new unique effects, like the caster staff which have effects that are based on class abilities or things you have from enhancemenrs or ED's, i want to see more of them.

Couldnt the bow have something which changes depending on which imbue your using? Kinda like the pinnacle ring with monk stances, that way it could feel unique depending on imbues your using

[korgzz_bloodaxe]

Solid items. No real power creep but plenty of variety and eventually as we get more and more variety it will lead to some interesting item combinations. There are 3-4 items I want in my bank. I probably won't use any of them to start with except for blackrazor but I am sure at some point in the future i'll be able to make a good set out of them.

[Iriale]

I think it is questionable if the old developers really understood anything better.
When I now think about it, it was maybe a mistake to bring out any weapon with any improved critical profile but this is just only an objective view.
Because different and interesting critical profiles are also interesting and fun for me I'm not sure if I want to miss them in DDO.
But the big problem is that if a weapon doesn't have this interesting property everyone tells you: "meh that weapon is not good enough" we see it here again with the U40 weapons.

As you can see with some crude math, a weapon doesn't need to have an improved critical profile to perform similarly to a weapon that is improved in another way.
But does this change the base problem?
You have named weapons and basically, everything else (random drop and Cannith Crafting) is outdated after you introduce such weapons who are much more powerful.
I think we have to live with the current situation but there is no need to enforce the problem.
If players now demand they want weapons with more weapon dices and an improved critical profile, in addition, the answer should be no!
Of course, players always ask for more power for new items but at the end, they play also for different items with similar power just only to have them and even if the difference is only a new cool look.

You can introduce new weapons who are not more powerful than the old weapons we already have with improved critical profiles.
Therefore the new Staff of Shadows should be similar strong as the Elemental Bloom but don't have to be more powerful just only because it is a newer weapon or because the source is a raid.

This reminds me of the saying that nothing is older than the news from yesterday...
Of course, everyone is excited that you have new even more powerful items with the next update even more if they are powerful enough so that every moron can see they are better than the previous items.
But after a week, the excitement is gone and this new item is just the boring and now already old standard again.
And the negative consequences for DDO that all old items are now obsolete and unattractive remains for years.

That the developers now set Cannith Crafting as the standard is a step in the right direction
Just with the new level 28 and 29 items, they broke once again this standard

As I said, it is not about giving a critical range to any weapon, but to qstaffs, which are weapons without innate critical range. It is debatable whether it is good for the game to create weapons such as the eSOs, but in the case of the qstaffs they *need* improvements with respect to the other weapons, because the qstaffs are inferior weapons in themselves, without innate critical range and with low base damage.

The old designers therefore created all the melee qstaffs (or almost all) with expanded critical. Because for other weapons the expanded critical is a big boon and prolly an OP feature, but for the qstaff this only puts them at the level of the rest of the weapons that do not have expanded critical (since they have innate critical range)

Of course the designers could instead create named qstaffs with expanded critical to give these improvements in the trees of TA / HM and the divine feats of Aureon. But they have not done so, and there is no programmed improvement in this sense; just unnecessary nerfs to the monk. So as long as they do not fix this, the named qstaff need SOMETHING to compete with other weapons. It is not necessary to be expanded critical, but then the weapon must have better enchantments than the rest of the weapons, to compensate that the qstaff is innately worse as a base weapon and that the combat trees with qstaff do not cover this difference. The old designers opted for expanded critical in named qstaffs. Lynnabel could opt for other options, but still has to cover that difference between the qstaff and the rest of the weapons.

It is no coincidence that right now the style of combat with qstaff is something practically disappeared in game. It has been a long time since there is a good named qstaff, the enhancements are still insufficient, and the style is simply too subpar for several reasons.

[HuneyMunster]

Lightning Coil Light Mace
Damage Dice: 5[1d6+3]

• Every few seconds, this weapon charges you with more lingering electricity that increases lightning spell power/spell lore. When you cast a lightning spell, it consumes all stacks. Each stack provides 10 Exceptional Lightning Spell Power, and 5% exceptional Lightning Spell Lore, max stack size 3.
• Lightning Spell Power 208
• Lightning Spell Lore 30%
• Evocation Spell DC +8
• Red Augment Slot
• Orange Augment Slot

This item may have been better the other way around. For long boss fights having it gain stacks per cast would make it more worthwhile casting multiple lightning spells to get full stacks. Maybe a Druid would get better use out of this than my Air Savant as they have few lightning spells to be able to wait for the max the charges.


For those that have Barovian Nobles' Regalia the full 3 stacks would provide 10 spell power and 5% crit chance as they both do not stack. Though it would be good for those without the Robe. Another point is no Insightful Evocation which I would lose from Nightmother's Sceptre, while offhand I'm better off with Golden Orb of Death or Echo of the Tome of Strahd for the 5% Insightful Spell Lore.


I wouldn't even consider making this my second sentient weapon with dps casting filigrees as there are none. At first I though Electrocution filigree, but I think Storm Sentience only works with melee and missile attacks and not spells.


There is one semi-caster dps Filigree set Frozen Wanderer, but that cold spells only and the weapon proc says melee and ranged attacks which I believe does not include spells.

[Chacka_DDO]

I mean if they are both +100 and +100 it's pointless math as they both cancel each other out. So really all that matters for enhancement bonus is the difference of 15 and 7. Heck you could just add +8 to the staff of shadows and that would give you the same exact number of 100/92. *Do note this just being the crude math of looking for the core difference between the 2 base weapons*

I'm not sure what you want to say here but the core difference is, of course, the better critical profile of the Elemental Bloom.
A better critical profile makes such weapons always "win" if your damage bonus is high enough.

But maybe you don't understand the mathematical connection?
So I try to explain and of course, I hope I did no mistakes because to err is human

Critical hits produce at the end basically only additional "free" hits if you are lucky so if you critically hit with a weapon with a multiplier of x3 it is the same as if you would hit 3 times at this moment.
And the critical thread range increases the chance that this happens.
The staff of Shadows 19-20 and x3 produces 23 hits on 20 tries (a miss on a 1, 17 normal hits and 2 critical worth 6 normal hits).
Elemental Bloom 17-20 x3 produces 27 hits on 20 tries (a miss on a 1, 15 normal hits and 4 critical worth 12 normal hits)
the weapon dice and the enhancement bonus together with the other damage bonuses you have, give you the average hit for each weapon.
Staff of Shadows 5[1d6+6] +15 = 47.5 + x
Elemental Bloom 5[1d6] +7 = 24.5 + x
x is the additional damage bonus you need so both weapons do the same damage so the equation is:
23*(47.5 + x) = 27*(24.5 + x)
1092.5+23x=661,5+27x
4x=431
x=107,75

So the result is you need an additional damage bonus of 107,75 and then the Elemental Bloom does the same damage as the Staff of Shadows (if you always hit besides you roll a 1).
So 5[1d6]+115 17-20 x3 is eqal to 5[1d6+6]+123 19-20 x3


Also, this is only a very crude calculation because it doesn't take into account that you have Seeker effects and effects that change your weapon dice like A Dance of Flowers and if your critcal profile is changed from enhancements and EDs it changes too.
And it doesn't take into account grazing hits.
Because of the sheer numbers of factors in DDO, an exact calculation is not that easy.
Of course, an exact calculation is possible maybe even for me but the question is if this is desirable for me.
At least as a player, I don't really want to do that kind of math because it also takes the charm away if I knew the exact numbers.

[LightBear]

Can anybody confirm if the staff of irian has Light as material?

[Yamani]

I'm not sure what you want to say here but the core difference is, of course, the better critical profile of the Elemental Bloom.
A better critical profile makes such weapons always "win" if your damage bonus is high enough.

But maybe you don't understand the mathematical connection?
So I try to explain and of course, I hope I did no mistakes because to err is human

Critical hits produce at the end basically only additional "free" hits if you are lucky so if you critically hit with a weapon with a multiplier of x3 it is the same as if you would hit 3 times at this moment.
And the critical thread range increases the chance that this happens.
The staff of Shadows 19-20 and x3 produces 23 hits on 20 tries (a miss on a 1, 17 normal hits and 2 critical worth 6 normal hits).
Elemental Bloom 17-20 x3 produces 27 hits on 20 tries (a miss on a 1, 15 normal hits and 4 critical worth 12 normal hits)
the weapon dice and the enhancement bonus together with the other damage bonuses you have, give you the average hit for each weapon.
Staff of Shadows 5[1d6+6] +15 = 47.5 + x
Elemental Bloom 5[1d6] +7 = 24.5 + x
x is the additional damage bonus you need so both weapons do the same damage so the equation is:
23*(47.5 + x) = 27*(24.5 + x)
1092.5+23x=661,5+27x
4x=431
x=107,75

So the result is you need an additional damage bonus of 107,75 and then the Elemental Bloom does the same damage as the Staff of Shadows (if you always hit besides you roll a 1).
So 5[1d6]+115 17-20 x3 is eqal to 5[1d6+6]+123 19-20 x3


Also, this is only a very crude calculation because it doesn't take into account that you have Seeker effects and effects that change your weapon dice like A Dance of Flowers and if your critcal profile is changed from enhancements and EDs it changes too.
And it doesn't take into account grazing hits.
Because of the sheer numbers of factors in DDO, an exact calculation is not that easy.
Of course, an exact calculation is possible maybe even for me but the question is if this is desirable for me.
At least as a player, I don't really want to do that kind of math because it also takes the charm away if I knew the exact numbers.

Just use cru121's doc...
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets...GvY/edit#gid=1

They showed rather well including the crit enhancers that will make the difference between the 2 weapons.

[ned_ellis]

The upgraded Whelm/variant Whelm does a guardbreaking-like daze when it procs its shockwave.



I wanted the divine caster staff to appeal to both Clerics and FVS and have unique, twistable/ED gettable parts for each. It's possible to Twist in Turn Undead if you're a FVS, and it's possible to run in Exalted Angel for their alternative Aura of Menace if you're a cleric.

The Warlock thing is kind of a bonus, I guess :P They're technically sorta divine!

Thank you for the reply Lynnabel! It does make it a very niche item having to have class built in a certain way+ed or twist to use it at full but if I ever find it I'll be happy to try it out! Hope my buddy RevCo is happy with his hammer too!

But please don't liken warlocks to any kind of respectable class - at school they sat in the corner with a dunce hat!

[Feyrabrand]

I’m excited for the new raid and the new night revels. But my main is a fire sorc and when I saw the new staff I was a little sad there wasn’t a fire equivalent. Since cold and sonic also got some new toys in the last few updates I was wondering if the other elements would be getting some love soon. The new ring looks nice but the extra mana cost and comparing it to current rings makes me hesitant with it. ( sorcs already increase mana costs as is.) not gonna touch the math war I’m bad at math xP.

[Iriale]

I’m excited for the new raid and the new night revels. But my main is a fire sorc and when I saw the new staff I was a little sad there wasn’t a fire equivalent. Since cold and sonic also got some new toys in the last few updates I was wondering if the other elements would be getting some love soon. The new ring looks nice but the extra mana cost and comparing it to current rings makes me hesitant with it. ( sorcs already increase mana costs as is.) not gonna touch the math war I’m bad at math xP.

use barovian robe. Same expceptional bonuses, no penalties, easier to get than a raid item.

[SerPounce]

In addition to the itemization issues, another problem with using crit profiles to scale DPS is that they're such rough increments. Right now the staff is at 19-20/x2 (before feats/enhancements), bumping that to 19-20/x3 puts it's crit prifile ahead of the raid maul and greatsword from ravenloft. Maybe that's OK because it's lower W and lack of damage mods, but it's a problematic way of managing DPS because of the big jumps each change results in.

[scipiojedi]

I was thinking about the staff dilemma and it seems that there should be some extra properties associated with quarterstaffs. They shouldn't have great critical range like other weapons because that just homogenizes the game, but rather code in some sort of trip on Vorpal DC, some sort of cool melee CC function since that's really how quarterstaffs are used. Every quarterstaff should add a bonus to PRR/shield AC and proc a special effect, like 5% chance to trip a target on every hit. Then you don't have to code named ones with extra special crit ranges, but rather put quarterstaffs into a niche use by providing a function alternative to straight DPS for builds.

[SerPounce]

I was thinking about the staff dilemma and it seems that there should be some extra properties associated with quarterstaffs. They shouldn't have great critical range like other weapons because that just homogenizes the game, but rather code in some sort of trip on Vorpal DC, some sort of cool melee CC function since that's really how quarterstaffs are used. Every quarterstaff should add a bonus to PRR/shield AC and proc a special effect, like 5% chance to trip a target on every hit. Then you don't have to code named ones with extra special crit ranges, but rather put quarterstaffs into a niche use by providing a function alternative to straight DPS for builds.

Once upon a time staves and other blunt weapons had the advantage of getting stun mods that weren't available on other weapons. In that theme, if staves were to get a non-dps general bonus I'd like to see it be reduced tactics cooldowns (you could have it kick in 20 seconds after equip to avoid swaping abuse).

[janave]

...
Couldnt the bow have something which changes depending on which imbue your using? Kinda like the pinnacle ring with monk stances, that way it could feel unique depending on imbues your using

I would personally love this thing if the effects are nice too, however most Bow builds are already too much tied into AA. I very rarely see Bow builds that are completely independent from AA.

Id prefer bows designed to support and work with many different custom builds.

[Chacka_DDO]

Just use cru121's doc...
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets...GvY/edit#gid=1

They showed rather well including the crit enhancers that will make the difference between the 2 weapons.

Yup this shows more or less what I expected the Staff of Shadows in its current version is better than the Elemental Bloom until you reach 138.5 damage bonuses in addition to the enhancement bonus if you have seeker +25 and a crit thread and multi of +1.
But if you would have another thread range increase of +1 (from LD or DC) and/or overwhelming Critical and/or Devastating Critical this would change it again and you need even more additional bonuses to make the Elemental Bloom better then the Staff of Shadows in the current version.
And if you add A Dance of Flowers and Improved Power Attack it would shift even more in favor of The Staff of Shadows.
As I said, seemingly the additional weapon dice of +6 is underestimated by players and developers until you do the calculation or you test it.

Conclusion for me is that the Staff of Shadows in its current version is not bad at all, even if some players have the feeling it is not good enough.

[barecm]

i'd change the destruction to 9d6 good damage helping break dr at the same time and alaracty to a legendary vorpal or legendary paralyzing or shiradi colors effect some like effect that's different. it should be better than hunter of the wilds because a) it's a longbow and b) it's a raid weapon. The ravenloft bow is meh even compared to the other ravenloft bows. Need something to compete with the shuriken builds although one weapon isn't going to fix that.

I agree. However, as has been said, this is a chaos driven set of loot, so I would say keep that in there. The damage is in line for lvl 29. Where I do agree is that this bow does not offer much above the shortbow that has similar stats. The Chaosbow as is is simply not a raid quality item as compared to what can be obtained in normal quests. INHO I would go with 5% insight bonus to speed and add some sort of chaos damage vulnerability (if possible) instead of the improved destruction.

Lastly, I was down on Void until I built towards what it does, that is cold damage. You can actually boost it fairly well with spell power and cold based boosting items, stay frosty, etc... and then the cold vulnerability. Plus, with the arrow clickie, it winds up being rather useful and my primary weapon now for my ranger. Maybe that is a sign for me to be onboard until we can figure a build around it, but I just don't see the same ability to boost chaos damage as I can with elemental damage. I plan to test out on Lam tonight.

[SerPounce]

Yup this shows more or less what I expected the Staff of Shadows in its current version is better than the Elemental Bloom until you reach 138.5 damage bonuses in addition to the enhancement bonus if you have seeker +25 and a crit thread and multi of +1.
But if you would have another thread range increase of +1 (from LD or DC) and/or overwhelming Critical and/or Devastating Critical this would change it again and you need even more additional bonuses to make the Elemental Bloom better then the Staff of Shadows in the current version.
And if you add A Dance of Flowers and Improved Power Attack it would shift even more in favor of The Staff of Shadows.
As I said, seemingly the additional weapon dice of +6 is underestimated by players and developers until you do the calculation or you test it.

Conclusion for me is that the Staff of Shadows in its current version is not bad at all, even if some players have the feeling it is not good enough.

Props on both doing the math and for changing your position based on it. It’s great to see that kind of grounded analysis and open mindedness. There’s way too much conclusion driven lobbying on these forums.

[janave]

The Chaosbow as is is simply not a raid quality item as compared to what can be obtained in normal quests. INHO I would go with 5% insight bonus to speed and add some sort of chaos damage vulnerability (if possible) instead of the improved destruction..

I am personally not too sold on the alacrity bonuses, due to the clunky animation & how difficulty to tell even a 10% bonus. See the Shiradi stance toggle from Fatesinger, which does not show up on the character sheet. How much of those % are effective % scaling to compare with other effects.

Bows being two handed weapons with nothing to compensate for the offhand should also factor in.

[LightBear]

Yup this shows more or less what I expected the Staff of Shadows in its current version is better than the Elemental Bloom until you reach 138.5 damage bonuses in addition to the enhancement bonus if you have seeker +25 and a crit thread and multi of +1.
But if you would have another thread range increase of +1 (from LD or DC) and/or overwhelming Critical and/or Devastating Critical this would change it again and you need even more additional bonuses to make the Elemental Bloom better then the Staff of Shadows in the current version.
And if you add A Dance of Flowers and Improved Power Attack it would shift even more in favor of The Staff of Shadows.
As I said, seemingly the additional weapon dice of +6 is underestimated by players and developers until you do the calculation or you test it.

Conclusion for me is that the Staff of Shadows in its current version is not bad at all, even if some players have the feeling it is not good enough.

I think you're right.

The +6 of the weighted dice are real easy to look over (I did).
It basically equals a standing deadly of 30 that grows 6 with each added weapon die.
Or +60 str that grows 12 with each added weapon die.

Still, it could use some flavor like maybe a Light + Negative damage reduction of 25% and an Improved Invisibility clicky?
Both are defensive so would not add to the offensive power of the weapon while still fit into the shadow theme.