Update 40 Preview 1: Raid Loot Feedback Thread

[Aelonwy]

It's not the job of itemization to fix balance problems between weapon styles, and overpumping this would be a big mistake. Ideally, each weapon style - and weapon - is matched in DPS or utility or some niche way versus each other. If you are worried that a Quarterstaff with appropriate dice (and the bonus I'll regret adding of a bonus crit mult) is not performing well versus a greatsword, we should buff Quarterstaves as a whole, not buff THIS quarterstaff to compensate for a class/weapon style/combat technique imbalance.

If I go 20000% on this and give it some absurd crit something, and in the future we change Quarterstaves by changing Thief Acrobat or Henshin or add a universal pole-vaulting tree, then we'll have to go back and firmly smack the Staff of Shadows with 14 individual nerfs and it'll be a whole thing and they'll be 20 pages of discussion about how we hate quarterstaves and pole-vaulting and the Olympics.

I hardly think 19-20x3 is absurd, but /shrugs. I understand that Henshin and Thief Acrobat could use some tweaks to better compare with other weapon styles. We all know that could be years before it happens too. It seems as though this item is set in stone and no amount of feedback will make a difference.

Okay. Ten Four.

[Sam-u-r-eye]

If I go 20000% on this and give it some absurd crit something, and in the future we change Quarterstaves by changing Thief Acrobat or Henshin or add a universal pole-vaulting tree, then we'll have to go back and firmly smack the Staff of Shadows with 14 individual nerfs and it'll be a whole thing and they'll be 20 pages of discussion about how we hate quarterstaves and pole-vaulting and the Olympics.

The community would prefer this though. Recently stick builds were nerfed since they were too powerful.

+1 for humor

[Pilgrim1]

This is a great jumping off point into a post I should have made quite some time ago, but here's the mathematical proof that the current Staff of Shadows is better than Bloom in damage by a significant margin:

Assuming: the character is using completely equivalent gear/feats/everything when comparing these weapons, that 3.5 is the average of 1d6 and 9.5 is the average of 1d6+6, and in combat the character only misses on a 1:

An Epic Elemental Bloom with 5[1d6] and 18-20/x3 does (5 * 3.5 = 17.5) on a non-crit and (17.5 * 3 = 52.5) on a crit. On an average 20 hits, they will miss once (0), hit 16 times, and crit 3 times. 16 hits (16 * 17.5 = 280) and 3 crits (3 * 52.5 = 157.5) make a total of 473.5 damage across 20 hits, for an average of 21.875 per hit.

A Staff of Shadows with 5[1d6+6] and a 20/x3 does (5 * 9.5 = 47.5) on a non-crit and (47.5 * 3 = 142.5) on a crit. On an average 20 hits, they will miss once (0), hit 18 times, and crit once. 18 hits (18 * 47.5 = 855) and 1 crit (1 * 142.5 = 142.5) make a total of 997.5 damage across 20 hits, for an average of 49.875 per hit.

This is just my back of the napkin math, but the loaded dice more than compensate for relying on the base critical threat of a weapon.

While this is striclty correct it is largly misleading. For a weapon that has a crit profile of 20/x3 you should multiply your flat damge sources by 1.1 [(22/20) - 1 miss, 18 normal hits, 1 hit at 3 times normal/20 rolls on the die). Bloom has a crit effect of: (16+9)/20 or 1.25. That means for every additional damage your add onto your toon the staff of shadows multipiles the damage by 1.1 and th bloom by 1.25. That doesn’t seam like much does it? Well consiter +15 weapon enhancment bonus, +45 stat mod (70 stat, 1.5 dmg), +15 deadly, +10 q.staff enhancments. Thats just small numbers not even what you can push for. But that means that your basicly into gear adds 85 dmg/hit. The staff of shadows turns that 85 into 93 dmg/hit. The elemental bloom turns that into 106 dmg/hit. Also consiter seeker which only works on critical hit.

The effect of this is that weapons with expanded crit profiles do BETER the more additional base damage people run. Weapons with flat on-hit-bonus-damage do BETER with lower damage toons.


Epic Sword of shadows:
Sword of shadows had several aspects that had it stand apart from other great swords:
(1) - expanded critical multiplyer x3 instead of x2.
(2) - expanded critical threat range 18-20 instead of 19-20 (was later turned to 17-20 with the improved critical pass)
(3) - adamantine weapon
(4) - enhanhanced base damage 5d6 instead of 2d6 (I dont remeber what it orginaly was)
(5) - bonus enhancment +10 weapon instead of +6

You have created a staff with 1 and 3. You have missed the others. If you want to create a staff of shadows with the flavor of the epic sword of shadows i sugest:

7[1d6+6]18-20x3
+20 weapon bonus.
Adamantine
Red slot
Purple slot.

This gives you a scaled up version of the sword.

[Sam-u-r-eye]

We want big dumb numbers from the new raid. We also want old loot to stay relevant (mostly). We want more flavor.

GIMME GIMME GIMME

[Captain_Wizbang]

The effect of this is that weapons with expanded crit profiles do BETER the more additional base damage people run. Weapons with flat on-hit-bonus-damage do BETER with lower damage toons.

You hit on a point I believe is where they are thinking. Building to accommodate as many people as possible.

Your numbers are spot on, but I'd like to hear a rebuttal to my statement about designing for the masses.

[Sam-u-r-eye]

A lot of these weapons are for TWF / SWF.
Could we get a set of handwraps? Maybe convert the freezing scimi into some freezing wraps as well?

<3

Also we could maybe use an item with combat mastery and seeker. We've been missing these for quite a while.

[Shoemaker]

The in-game item is missing "Impact V"

It also seems to be missing a ML and the BV is very low.

[Sam-u-r-eye]

It's not the job of itemization to fix balance problems between weapon styles, and overpumping this would be a big mistake. Ideally, each weapon style - and weapon - is matched in DPS or utility or some niche way versus each other. If you are worried that a Quarterstaff with appropriate dice (and the bonus I'll regret adding of a bonus crit mult) is not performing well versus a greatsword, we should buff Quarterstaves as a whole, not buff THIS quarterstaff to compensate for a class/weapon style/combat technique imbalance.

Could we have a crafting system then to put Blackrazor on any weapon type?
Or any of your cool new stuff. Obviously restrictions to THF / Single weapons would apply. IDK just food for thought... ^^

Maybe just have 1 or 2 items be craftable?

[SerPounce]

Feedback like this is great to read, but not as actionable as a few neat suggestions to work in instead of the Death Ward effect. What should the rage armor ward/guard/do instead of Energy Drain immunity? Give me suggestions!

Hah! The pressure is on . For rage related effects I love things that "stack up." Like as you kill stuff you get more powerful, or as you take hits you get angrier. For an armor maybe something like: whenever you make a saving throw vs. a spell gain +5 mrr. stacks up to 5 times, with one stack faiding every 10 seconds.

For something simpler (I'd think, but what do I know?) maybe a "rage bonus" to tactics. Barbarians do pretty well with tactic because of their big str numbers. But without a "trance" bonus naturally fitting in or the big feat numbers from fighter they can be a bit lower than ideal. A stacking universal tactics bonus would be useful.

[Zretch]

This is a great jumping off point into a post I should have made quite some time ago, but here's the mathematical proof that the current Staff of Shadows is better than Bloom in damage by a significant margin:

Assuming: the character is using completely equivalent gear/feats/everything when comparing these weapons, that 3.5 is the average of 1d6 and 9.5 is the average of 1d6+6, and in combat the character only misses on a 1:

An Epic Elemental Bloom with 5[1d6] and 18-20/x3 does (5 * 3.5 = 17.5) on a non-crit and (17.5 * 3 = 52.5) on a crit. On an average 20 hits, they will miss once (0), hit 16 times, and crit 3 times. 16 hits (16 * 17.5 = 280) and 3 crits (3 * 52.5 = 157.5) make a total of 473.5 damage across 20 hits, for an average of 21.875 per hit.

A Staff of Shadows with 5[1d6+6] and a 20/x3 does (5 * 9.5 = 47.5) on a non-crit and (47.5 * 3 = 142.5) on a crit. On an average 20 hits, they will miss once (0), hit 18 times, and crit once. 18 hits (18 * 47.5 = 855) and 1 crit (1 * 142.5 = 142.5) make a total of 997.5 damage across 20 hits, for an average of 49.875 per hit.

This is just my back of the napkin math, but the loaded dice more than compensate for relying on the base critical threat of a weapon.

Epic Elemental Bloom also has bodyfeeder, greater elemental bane, a wisdom drain, and paralyzing. Staff of Shadows.....doesn't require you to repair it when you go to repair all of your other gear? Also, you can equip EEBloom at level 26 and farm it solo from a level 30 quest. It's not raid gear.

[Grace_ana]

n

It's not the job of itemization to fix balance problems between weapon styles, and overpumping this would be a big mistake. Ideally, each weapon style - and weapon - is matched in DPS or utility or some niche way versus each other. If you are worried that a Quarterstaff with appropriate dice (and the bonus I'll regret adding of a bonus crit mult) is not performing well versus a greatsword, we should buff Quarterstaves as a whole, not buff THIS quarterstaff to compensate for a class/weapon style/combat technique imbalance.

If I go 20000% on this and give it some absurd crit something, and in the future we change Quarterstaves by changing Thief Acrobat or Henshin or add a universal pole-vaulting tree, then we'll have to go back and firmly smack the Staff of Shadows with 14 individual nerfs and it'll be a whole thing and they'll be 20 pages of discussion about how we hate quarterstaves and pole-vaulting and the Olympics.

It makes zero sense to say this is a weapon based on the eSoS that leverages crits and numbers, and then to not give it those numbers. But hey, I guess it's one less thing I have to worry about in my inventory. As it stands, it's not a good weapon at all. I'll use epic Elemental Bloom instead.

[Alcides]

Please add a dwarven waraxe with some tanking flair such as constitution or strength bonus to hit and damage. Throw in some metalline and some other fun stuff and you got a nice weapon.

[SerPounce]

It's not the job of itemization to fix balance problems between weapon styles, and overpumping this would be a big mistake. Ideally, each weapon style - and weapon - is matched in DPS or utility or some niche way versus each other. If you are worried that a Quarterstaff with appropriate dice (and the bonus I'll regret adding of a bonus crit mult) is not performing well versus a greatsword, we should buff Quarterstaves as a whole, not buff THIS quarterstaff to compensate for a class/weapon style/combat technique imbalance.

If I go 20000% on this and give it some absurd crit something, and in the future we change Quarterstaves by changing Thief Acrobat or Henshin or add a universal pole-vaulting tree, then we'll have to go back and firmly smack the Staff of Shadows with 14 individual nerfs and it'll be a whole thing and they'll be 20 pages of discussion about how we hate quarterstaves and pole-vaulting and the Olympics.

This is a great point. I hadn't really thought about it, but this is 100% the way to do it. Differing base item power should be dealt with outside of itemization with feats, enhancements, etc.

but Sos has an expanded critic in a weapon with a better critical profile. Why deny the expanded critical to a weapon woth worse critical profile?

And devs still do not know that combat with qstaffs does not compete well today?

And the sos (and esos) screwed up game balance for years. Every 2hf build that didn't have an sos was garbage because the whole fighting style was build around one broken weapon.

[shinsirhc]

The Reflection of Whelm Warhammer
Damage Dice: 5[1d8+3]

• Overwhelming Shockwave: This reverberates with incredible power, and on a Vorpal strike releases a shockwave that does extreme damage to surrounding enemies. It also dazes your target (like Guardbreaking)
• +1 Crit Multiplier on a 19-20
• Bonesplitter
• Giant Bane
• Red Augment Slot
• Orange Augment Slot

Can you adjust/increase the Damage of the Overwhelming Shockwave? Its pretty weak compared to "Thunderforged WRATH OF FLAMES which deals 228 to 380 AOE fire damage".

The shockwave only deals 75 damage lol.

[DrawingGuy]

This is a great jumping off point into a post I should have made quite some time ago, but here's the mathematical proof that the current Staff of Shadows is better than Bloom in damage by a significant margin:

Assuming: the character is using completely equivalent gear/feats/everything when comparing these weapons, that 3.5 is the average of 1d6 and 9.5 is the average of 1d6+6, and in combat the character only misses on a 1:

An Epic Elemental Bloom with 5[1d6] and 18-20/x3 does (5 * 3.5 = 17.5) on a non-crit and (17.5 * 3 = 52.5) on a crit. On an average 20 hits, they will miss once (0), hit 16 times, and crit 3 times. 16 hits (16 * 17.5 = 280) and 3 crits (3 * 52.5 = 157.5) make a total of 473.5 damage across 20 hits, for an average of 21.875 per hit.

A Staff of Shadows with 5[1d6+6] and a 20/x3 does (5 * 9.5 = 47.5) on a non-crit and (47.5 * 3 = 142.5) on a crit. On an average 20 hits, they will miss once (0), hit 18 times, and crit once. 18 hits (18 * 47.5 = 855) and 1 crit (1 * 142.5 = 142.5) make a total of 997.5 damage across 20 hits, for an average of 49.875 per hit.

This is just my back of the napkin math, but the loaded dice more than compensate for relying on the base critical threat of a weapon.

Lynnabel, thank you for weighing in! Though I do see this as the underestimation of crit profiles (which is the same pitfall that the overestimation of handwrap damage is falling under and thus the nerf they're receiving - still hoping how that nerf happens will change). Once you add some actual stats behind the crits, the damage profiles change.

Let's take someone that has 80 damage stat (so 35 modifier), 40 flat damage (deadly, enhancements, PA, etc will pass this value), and 20 seeker (easily reached between items and enhancements).

An Epic Elemental Bloom with 5[1d6] and 18-20/x3 does (5 * 3.5 = 17.5 + 35 + 40 = 92.5) on a non-crit and ((92.5 + 20) * 3 = 337.5) on a crit. On an average 20 hits, they will miss once (0), hit 16 times, and crit 3 times. 16 hits (16 * 92.5 = 1480) and 3 crits (3 * 337.5 = 1012.5) make a total of 2492.5 damage across 20 hits, for an average of 124.625 per hit.

A Staff of Shadows with 5[1d6+6] and a 20/x3 does (5 * 9.5 = 47.5 + 35 + 40 = 122.5) on a non-crit and ((122.5 + 20) * 3 = 427.5) on a crit. On an average 20 hits, they will miss once (0), hit 18 times, and crit once. 18 hits (18 * 122.5 = 2205) and 1 crit (1 * 427.5 = 427.5) make a total of 2632.5 damage across 20 hits, for an average of 131.625 per hit.

This is also napkin math, but shows that the difference is quite small between a raid item and a quest item where you don't even have to finish the quest for loot chances. Higher stat modifiers, KtA, etc will actually have Elemental Bloom pull ahead. Add in weapons with other abilities, and you will see why Staff of Shadows needs something. Simply expanding the crit range is all it needs.

[LevelJ]

The Reflection of Wave Quarterstaff
Damage Dice: 5[1d6+6]

• The Crash of the Waves: On Harmful Spellcast, you have a small chance of locking an enemy in a frozen block of ice. DC 100.
• Frozen Storm Lore: Ice/Electric/Sonic Spell Lore +30%
• Frozen Storm Power: Ice/Electric/Sonic Spell Power 208
• Swirling Ice Shield: 3 Charges/3 per day
• Greater Water Elemental Form: While in Water Elemental Form (Druid and Sorcerer both count for this), you benefit from 50 Exceptional Cold Spell Power, 20% Exceptional Cold Spell Lore, and you have 5 additional maximum/current Cold Spell caster levels
• Water Breathing
• Red Augment Slot
• Orange Augment Slot

Any chance we could get a Greater Air Elemental form added to this too, with the same benefits the Greater Water Elemental Form ability has (for air, of course)? This weapon is clearly intended to benefit lightning and cold druids and sorcs, and since elemental forms for sorcs are mutually exclusive, there would be no higher power creep to do so I'd think. Would be awesome if possible!


-Jayron

[Selvera]

It's not the job of itemization to fix balance problems between weapon styles, and overpumping this would be a big mistake. Ideally, each weapon style - and weapon - is matched in DPS or utility or some niche way versus each other. If you are worried that a Quarterstaff with appropriate dice (and the bonus I'll regret adding of a bonus crit mult) is not performing well versus a greatsword, we should buff Quarterstaves as a whole, not buff THIS quarterstaff to compensate for a class/weapon style/combat technique imbalance.

If I go 20000% on this and give it some absurd crit something, and in the future we change Quarterstaves by changing Thief Acrobat or Henshin or add a universal pole-vaulting tree, then we'll have to go back and firmly smack the Staff of Shadows with 14 individual nerfs and it'll be a whole thing and they'll be 20 pages of discussion about how we hate quarterstaves and pole-vaulting and the Olympics.

Then henshin and acrobat should be buffed; stick builds rely heavily on the named quaterstaffs with improved critical profiles (of which there are many through all levels 4 to 26; said builds are fairly weak pre-4 and post 26). The elemental bloom sticks out as amazing especially in heroics; good enough to use even without those trees. But there are no named q-staffs endgame that have similar critical profiles.

As mentioned by others; the 0.15 better critical profile of the elemental bloom is worth at least +15 average damage per hit from static bonuses (since +100 damage isn't unreasonable to expect a 2 handed weapon build to obtain at cap). Which offsets the +28 base damage you calculated for the staff of shadows by a significant amount. Depending on seeker bonuses; +[w] bonuses and other critical threat range/multi increases; this gap might shrink some. (Increased [w], such as from grandmaster of flowers is better for the staff of shadows; but increases seeker; which all melees run; is better for the elemental bloom).

Or; if you would prefer to push the weapon into a more niche use rather then raw dps of other classes/builds (which they keep up with sorta via named items from 4 to 26, but fall behind at endgame), then consider what niche quarterstaff builds should fill; and aim towards that.

Let's look at the thief acrobat tree:
1) Attackspeed - Pretty nice for a 2hf weapon that relies less on cleaves, more glancing blows procs?
2) Doublestrike - Essentially devalued now that most/all weapons can hit the doublestrike cap of 100% at least for short bursts if not for sustained periods of time.
3) AoE trip - Cool stuff; sort of like lay waste.
4) Pole-vault aka wings ability - One of many options to get this; including a clickable item (with a long cooldown), but still cool.
5) Increased dodge cap - Here's an interesting niche to work with. A dps who is able to dodge all damage for short periods of time? Useful at some higher reapers.

How about the henshin?
1) Attackspeed - As above, but they don't get it until they're epic level
2) Melee power - Used to be much more then other builds; now it's not really anything special anymore, a fighter with a greatsword gets more melee power.
3) Doublestrike - As above, not nearly as good as it used to be before power creep.
4) Melee/ranged power Aura - Now this is some cool ***t
5) Bonus damage in cauldron of flame - Handwrap monks have a bunch of cool items that upgrade their punching in different stances; what if henshins got a staff that upgraded their thwacking while in cauldron of flame?

[NarutoArgo]

It's not the job of itemization to fix balance problems between weapon styles, and overpumping this would be a big mistake. Ideally, each weapon style - and weapon - is matched in DPS or utility or some niche way versus each other. If you are worried that a Quarterstaff with appropriate dice (and the bonus I'll regret adding of a bonus crit mult) is not performing well versus a greatsword, we should buff Quarterstaves as a whole, not buff THIS quarterstaff to compensate for a class/weapon style/combat technique imbalance.

If I go 20000% on this and give it some absurd crit something, and in the future we change Quarterstaves by changing Thief Acrobat or Henshin or add a universal pole-vaulting tree, then we'll have to go back and firmly smack the Staff of Shadows with 14 individual nerfs and it'll be a whole thing and they'll be 20 pages of discussion about how we hate quarterstaves and pole-vaulting and the Olympics.

This is an absurd response. You're not going to make the staff competitive with other items because you may or may not buff acrobats in the future? That's some backwards thinking.

[red_kain]

Feedback like this is great to read, but not as actionable as a few neat suggestions to work in instead of the Death Ward effect. What should the rage armor ward/guard/do instead of Energy Drain immunity? Give me suggestions!

The rage bonus could be "Unstoppable" and be similar to freedom of movement or immune to knockdowns, immunity to enchantment effects. You could also change it to a chance to refresh the rage effect when hit, making the rage last longer, Rage Guard.

Onto caster stuff, take another look at the Mountainskin set bonus and the lightning coil. Electric spells will suffer comparing these bonuses, losing stacks on cast is a poor choice. I'd much rather see something like lightning coil absorbs a small bit of charge from your lightning casts, +1 stack. Not casting lightning shouldn't make your lightning stronger. The set bonus for acid is great. Wave seems like its going to boost Water Savant best sorc, maybe? Combined with the 5% from sentient filigree we got last update, cold is looking pretty strong.

I saw a few posts saying the Bracers of the mountain is a melee item, but its just defensive for anybody, with a nice caster set bonus. As a defensive item, spell penetration doesn't quite fit, I'm fine with it as is, but if you wanted to change it, maybe something like natural armor or put the insightful devotion from Elyd Charm onto the Bracers and give the Necklace insightful sonic spellpower. Personally I find insightful spellpower is hard to fit into gear, and often use items like the Morninglord's Sceptre or panosophic circlet to get insightful spellpower.

Did I miss fire's +15% lore somewhere. or is that going to be in U41?

[Lynnabel]

This is also napkin math, but shows that the difference is quite small between a raid item and a quest item where you don't even have to finish the quest for loot chances. Higher stat modifiers, KtA, etc will actually have Elemental Bloom pull ahead. Add in weapons with other abilities, and you will see why Staff of Shadows needs something. Simply expanding the crit range is all it needs.

I appreciate the counter napkin math, here is some more double-counter napkin math

As you add additional proportional stats, the Damage of the Elemental Bloom approaches the damage of the Staff of Shadows, but can't take it. I am going to round to the nearest number for simplicity here:

0 damage/0 crit damage: 22 versus 50
20 damage/20 crit damage: 118 vs 158
200 damage/200 crit damage: 987 vs 1129
2000 damage/2000 crit damage: 9672 vs 10850

You would need to have 95 seeker to break the Elemental Bloom over the Staff of Shadows, assuming you also have literally 0 sources of bonus damage. Assuming a reasonable number for damage - the same one you picked, 75 (35 mod and 40 flat) - you would need roughly 330 seeker to break even. As base damage increases, you'll need proportionally more crit damage to mathematically equal them out.