Update 40 Preview 1: Raid Loot Feedback Thread

[Yamani]

I just hope they make the skin nice, so far looks like a cosmetic item slash sentinent food. +3% speed and elastic is barely making this a wilderness item, not raid gear in its current form.

This is the chaosbow on lamannia

[Vish]

FYI,
There's nothing in this raid I want
So it's already dead to me
Unless you fix the staff
May give me reason to run henshin again
I doubt it, monks getting nerfed bad
I guess it's time to move on
I put all my resources into monk, now theyre sad
Can't and don't want to grind all over

And another thing.
There really is no 30 scene
The Strahd doesn't get pugged hardly,
Baba does get run but that's only half the loot
I just hope new raid is pug friendly,
Or itll be just as dead as lightning dragon raid
Stop wasting your time

[ned_ellis]

Staff of Irian Quarterstaff
Damage Dice: 5[1d6+6]

Deific Focus III
Fire/Light Spell Power 208
Fire/Light Spell Lore 30%
If Quarterstaves are your favored weapon, whenever you expend a charge of Turn Undead, you become Favored by Irian, increasing your Fire and Light Spell Critical Damage by 5% (Quality Bonus) for 20 seconds.
If Quarterstaves are your favored weapon, while you are projecting an Aura of Menace, you can absorb 20 spells per rest.
Brazen Brilliance (from the Sunsword)
Red Augment Slot
Orange Augment Slot

Why tie the bolded part to Aura of Menace? Why exclude clerics but include warlocks on this item?

Clouded Dreams Ring

Exceptional Potency +20
Exceptional Spell Lore +10%
Insightful Spell Focus Mastery +4
Improved Nightmare Guard (DC 100)
Mind Drain (-5% Max Spell Points)
-4 Will Saves
Green Augment Slot
Yellow Augment Slot

Nice idea but...the pro's (available elsewhere) really don't overcome the cons; not even going to consider the fact I 'might' free up a slot because of the negative effects on the item

Also agree with Iriale on caster goggles!

Also agree with Janave on the bow; I like the consolidation of effects even though it really ain't sparkly
I will only move on from Pinion at end-game because of the higher minimum lvl...and I'd feel so bad for my trusty Pinion I might not even bother! Let's hope it looks good!

[Iriale]

Clouded Dreams devalues the RL robe, no it severally devalues it and the drawback doesn't make much sense balance wise or has much coherency with the "spells get stronger" theme, why not have it grant bonuses based on the missing SP pool?

rather the robe devalues this ring. Nobody in their right mind will use that ring, when all these effects are in other items and without the need of a penalty. The only new thing is the nightmare proc with high DC, and meh, it's not worth -5% to your spell points.

People complain about the little damage that spells do, and instead they receive a penalty to the spell points, so that spell nuking is even more unproductive. * Sigh *

[Captain_Wizbang]

I do not envy SSG when it comes to this.

Making loot for the min/maxers, the meta, the grinders, the average player is a nightmare I'm sure.

People want the next greatest thing, and think you're lame if they dont get what they want.

That's OK, as E.Gary Gygax said "D&D players are the smartest bunch of whiners you'll ever meet"

You (SSG) have plan, and we dont know what that is. The loot you're designing is part of that plan. I get that. My biggest concern is consistency. Which sadly we haven't seen a lot of because of the evolution of staff and the game.

Again, some of looks awesome, some looks like a waste of time. I wouldn't your job. Hero to zero and back again.

Just make Reflection of Blackrazor & Blackrazor the baddest swds ever. And make the drop rate for them <2%

[RevCo]

Howdy folks, could someone please explain the difference between the reflection loot for the night revels raid(specifically the Warhammer version) and the White Plume Mountain version?

http://m.ddowiki.com/page/Item:Legendary_Echo_of_Whelm

Thank you in advance!

RevCo

[Lynnabel]

If you want staff of shadow to be good, you need to make it either 17-20/x3 or 20/x4. SoS is blonkers because of extended critical threat and multiplier otherwise someone might as well go with the epic elemental bloom.

This is a great jumping off point into a post I should have made quite some time ago, but here's the mathematical proof that the current Staff of Shadows is better than Bloom in damage by a significant margin:

Assuming: the character is using completely equivalent gear/feats/everything when comparing these weapons, that 3.5 is the average of 1d6 and 9.5 is the average of 1d6+6, and in combat the character only misses on a 1:

An Epic Elemental Bloom with 5[1d6] and 18-20/x3 does (5 * 3.5 = 17.5) on a non-crit and (17.5 * 3 = 52.5) on a crit. On an average 20 hits, they will miss once (0), hit 16 times, and crit 3 times. 16 hits (16 * 17.5 = 280) and 3 crits (3 * 52.5 = 157.5) make a total of 473.5 damage across 20 hits, for an average of 21.875 per hit.

A Staff of Shadows with 5[1d6+6] and a 20/x3 does (5 * 9.5 = 47.5) on a non-crit and (47.5 * 3 = 142.5) on a crit. On an average 20 hits, they will miss once (0), hit 18 times, and crit once. 18 hits (18 * 47.5 = 855) and 1 crit (1 * 142.5 = 142.5) make a total of 997.5 damage across 20 hits, for an average of 49.875 per hit.

This is just my back of the napkin math, but the loaded dice more than compensate for relying on the base critical threat of a weapon.

[Aelonwy]

Did anyone else have trouble getting the Overwhelming Impact Throwing Hammer? Every time I tried to purchase it, in order to get a look at it, I got the message that the Item Would NOT split, and some error.

Also when I was equipping my character to try out night revels I grabbed some excess RL items, BTA, and put them in the shared bank in case the Wood elf character I made might use them. But the Shared Bank will NOT allow me to remove them, it consistently says Bank Fail. Is this intended or a major oops in the build?

[Lynnabel]

Howdy folks, could someone please explain the difference between the reflection loot for the night revels raid(specifically the Warhammer version) and the White Plume Mountain version?

The upgraded Whelm/variant Whelm does a guardbreaking-like daze when it procs its shockwave.

Why tie the bolded part to Aura of Menace? Why exclude clerics but include warlocks on this item?

I wanted the divine caster staff to appeal to both Clerics and FVS and have unique, twistable/ED gettable parts for each. It's possible to Twist in Turn Undead if you're a FVS, and it's possible to run in Exalted Angel for their alternative Aura of Menace if you're a cleric.

The Warlock thing is kind of a bonus, I guess :P They're technically sorta divine!

[Thar]

Chaosbow Longbow
Damage Dice: 5[1d8+3]
9d6 Chaotic Damage (Lawful characters will take a neg level)
Improved Destruction
Elasticity (+1 Mult on 19-20)
Ranged Alacrity 25%
Red Augment Slot
Orange Augment Slot

This is markedly worse than the age of rage (non raid) bow. same chaotic damage. swap keen for improved destruction = 2w loss, ranged alacrity for heartseaker where most would have the permahaste feat by this level. it wouldn't even be a swap weapon with the age of rage bow since it's same damage type.

[SerPounce]

I love the theme. Hoping for a fun new raid!

The weapons appear to again be the highlight. Happy to see new CC effects with proper legendary DCs. These weapons seem to do a nice job complementing the ravenloft raid weapons without eclipsing them. I'm not going to pretend to be able to do the DPS calculations in my head, but hopefully these weapons have been DPS vetted so there aren't big outliers in either direction like with the wraps and throwing star from ravenloft.

The accessories are nice. Great to see some new effects and combos.

The armors appear to be unimpressive. And no docent? I love that you put new effects on them, but they seem super niche. I mean what player who's running legendary raids doesn't have their death ward situation sorted? If the silence guard works on spells it might be interesting in some situations, but don't most guards only work on melee hit?

If you're going to do some changes before it goes live, I'd work on those armors and add a docent.

[Lynnabel]

If you're going to do some changes before it goes live, I'd work on those armors and add a docent.

Feedback like this is great to read, but not as actionable as a few neat suggestions to work in instead of the Death Ward effect. What should the rage armor ward/guard/do instead of Energy Drain immunity? Give me suggestions!

[legendkilleroll]

If you had an echo version with mythic/reaper bonuses, would it keep those after upgrading?

Speaking of WPM, last patch release notes mentioned mythic version now dropping, is that the mythic boosts or something else? i had heroic version with mythic boost already so didnt understand.

Some of the new weapons with DC effects have the wrong save in the text. Timeshards paralyze says fort instead of will and tornado blind is fort instead of reflex.

[Sam-u-r-eye]

Brilliant Crescent Sickle
Damage Dice: 5[1d6+3]

• 9d6 Lawful Damage (Chaotic characters will take a neg level)
• Limb Chopper
• Keen V
• Material: Adamantine
• Red Augment Slot
• Orange Augment Slot
• Set Bonus: When both Brilliant Crescents are equipped, you have +20% Offhand Strike Chance

I like the set bonus! I think the weapon could use a little more oomph but that's me. Sickles need something very special to compete with something like a scimitar given how improved critical works. Sickles are no good if you're building crit and they have that very bad base profile. Could we have the tier 5 from swashbuckler on them that gives +1 threat when you don't crit?On the other hand, maybe it should give 5ac every time you swing and don't crit---where when you crit, the stacks fall off. Some kinda funny logic like this... ...something that makes people want to NOT crit.

Tornado Handaxe
Damage Dice: 5[1d6+3]

• 9d6 Sonic Damage on hit
• Legendary Telekinetic (DC 90 Knockdown)
• Legendary Slicing Winds
• Legendary Sirocco (DC 90 Blind)
• Red Augment Slot
• Orange Augment Slot

I am glad this weapon is coming back in this form. It was a very cool item. The CC will be great.

Nullcloth Armor Heavy Armor

• Nullmagic Guard (on being struck, has a chance to silence your foe)
• PRR +52
• Fortification 208%
• Will Saves +16
• Magical Null (15% penalty to spell failure)
• Green Augment Slot
• Yellow Augment Slot

Again I am very happy to see this item com back in some form. Cool flavor---Caster bosses don't typically HIT you though. I think the nullmagic guard could be something that applies a nullmagic proc to the tank's weapon?

Ring of the Silver Tongue Ring

• Improved Deception
• Insightful Deception Att/Dmg
• Assassinate
• Insightful Assassinate
• Green Augment Slot
• Blue Augment Slot

Will this be the old version of deception? Nice ring.

Clouded Dreams Ring

• Exceptional Potency +20
• Exceptional Spell Lore +10%
• Insightful Spell Focus Mastery +4
• Improved Nightmare Guard (DC 100)
• Mind Drain (-5% Max Spell Points)
• -4 Will Saves
• Green Augment Slot
• Yellow Augment Slot

I like the flavor and negative penalty. Cheers.

Bracers of the Mountain Bracers

• Physical Resistance Rating +52
• Insightful Physical Resistance Rating +25
  
• Insightful Spell Penetration
• Petrification Immunity
• Set Bonus: While wearing this and the Cloak of the Mountain, grants exceptional 30 Acid Spell Power and 15% Acid Spell Lore, and when struck you sometimes cast Stoneskin on yourself.
• Green Augment Slot
• Blue Augment Slot

Looks like earth savant stuff.

Cloak of the Mountain Cloak

• Insightful Charisma +9
• Spell Focus Mastery
• Spell Penetration
• Spellcast on the Run feat
• Set Bonus: While wearing this and the Bracers of the Mountain, grants exceptional 30 Acid Spell Power and 15% Acid Spell Lore, and when struck you sometimes cast Stoneskin on yourself.
• Green Augment Slot
• Yellow Augment Slot

The Reflection of Blackrazor Greatsword
Damage Dice: 7[2d6+6] (+2W from Keen)

• Soul Devouring: On hit, applies a stack of Soul Scar - Reduces AC, Fortification, and Will Saves by 1, stacks 20 times. On hit, Blackrazor can attempt to devour the Soul of a non-boss monster (DC 100 Phantasmal Killer vs Will negates, no effect vs mobs at 5,000 or more HP). When you kill a target, this adds a stack of Devoured Soul to you, max 20, which provides a profane bonus of 1 to Damage and Melee power per stack. On Block or unequip, consumed souls are released. Souls last for 20 seconds.
• Keen V
• Entropic (Bane damage on hit)
• Vampirism 4d2
• Mind Control Immunity
• Red Augment Slot
• Orange Augment Slot

There is a long history of nerfing vorpals, mortal fear, woo woos, etc.... I hope that this weapon is balanced for the future. I'd prefer to see a multiplier instead of the insta-kill effect, but I understand that you're going this way. In the future the EFFECT could very well become problematic though... ...I disagree with this design decision based on previous design decisions. There is a long history here and it upsets me that my vorpals were killed, my nightmares were killed, and my mortal fear weapons were killed. The community has been favoring some crit-profile bonus for quite a while. I think you should explain this design decision to us because there's a history against a decision like this.

The Reflection of Wave Quarterstaff
Damage Dice: 5[1d6+6]

• The Crash of the Waves: On Harmful Spellcast, you have a small chance of locking an enemy in a frozen block of ice. DC 100.
• Frozen Storm Lore: Ice/Electric/Sonic Spell Lore +30%
• Frozen Storm Power: Ice/Electric/Sonic Spell Power 208
• Swirling Ice Shield: 3 Charges/3 per day
• Greater Water Elemental Form: While in Water Elemental Form (Druid and Sorcerer both count for this), you benefit from 50 Exceptional Cold Spell Power, 20% Exceptional Cold Spell Lore, and you have 5 additional maximum/current Cold Spell caster levels
• Water Breathing
• Red Augment Slot
• Orange Augment Slot

I love this item. The caster levels and crit are great. It is competing with Nightmother's sceptre though which is tough on it. Could you maybe add the insightful conjuration/evocation bonuses? Casting dps is very dependent on DCs. Cheers!

The Staff of Shadows Quarterstaff
Damage Dice: 5[1d6+6]
+1 Base Multiplier

• Material: Adamantine
• Red Augment Slot
• Orange Augment Slot

Our swordly version has a threat bonus. Quarterstaffs are pretty weak as a class of weapons and many of them already have threat and multiplier bonuses, e.x., Elemental Bloom.

[Aelonwy]

This is a great jumping off point into a post I should have made quite some time ago, but here's the mathematical proof that the current Staff of Shadows is better than Bloom in damage by a significant margin:

Assuming: the character is using completely equivalent gear/feats/everything when comparing these weapons, that 3.5 is the average of 1d6 and 9.5 is the average of 1d6+6, and in combat the character only misses on a 1:

An Epic Elemental Bloom with 5[1d6] and 18-20/x3 does (5 * 3.5 = 17.5) on a non-crit and (17.5 * 3 = 52.5) on a crit. On an average 20 hits, they will miss once (0), hit 16 times, and crit 3 times. 16 hits (16 * 17.5 = 280) and 3 crits (3 * 52.5 = 157.5) make a total of 473.5 damage across 20 hits, for an average of 21.875 per hit.

A Staff of Shadows with 5[1d6+6] and a 20/x3 does (5 * 9.5 = 47.5) on a non-crit and (47.5 * 3 = 142.5) on a crit. On an average 20 hits, they will miss once (0), hit 18 times, and crit once. 18 hits (18 * 47.5 = 855) and 1 crit (1 * 142.5 = 142.5) make a total of 997.5 damage across 20 hits, for an average of 49.875 per hit.

This is just my back of the napkin math, but the loaded dice more than compensate for relying on the base critical threat of a weapon.

I still think the staff should be at least an innate 19-20 x3 to compare favorably with its namesake. Its weird how you are only comparing it to other staves and not looking at all how it compares to other weapons its level. I understand comparing it to other staves for itemization purposes but there is is also the gestalt. If you look at this staff as just a weapon and compare it to other weapons acquired similarly (RAID) and same level, it is undeniably lacking as it stands at this moment. If you compared it to the greatswords coming in this update its obvious.

[Captain_Wizbang]

There is a long history of nerfing vorpals, mortal fear, woo woos, etc.... I hope that this weapon is balanced for the future. I'd prefer to see a multiplier instead of the insta-kill effect, but I understand that you're going this way. In the future the EFFECT could very well become problematic though... ...I disagree with this design decision based on previous design decisions. There is a long history here and it upsets me that my vorpals were killed, my nightmares were killed, and my mortal fear weapons were killed. The community has been favoring some crit-profile bonus for quite a while. I think you should explain this design decision to us because there's a history against a decision like this.

/signed

[Lynnabel]

I still think the staff should be at least an innate 19-20 x3 to compare favorably with its namesake. Its weird how you are only comparing it to other staves and not looking at all how it compares to other weapons its level. I understand comparing it to other staves for itemization purposes but there is is also the gestalt. If you look at this staff as just a weapon and compare it to other weapons acquired similarly (RAID) and same level, it is undeniably lacking as it stands at this moment. If you compared it to the greatswords coming in this update its obvious.

It's not the job of itemization to fix balance problems between weapon styles, and overpumping this would be a big mistake. Ideally, each weapon style - and weapon - is matched in DPS or utility or some niche way versus each other. If you are worried that a Quarterstaff with appropriate dice (and the bonus I'll regret adding of a bonus crit mult) is not performing well versus a greatsword, we should buff Quarterstaves as a whole, not buff THIS quarterstaff to compensate for a class/weapon style/combat technique imbalance.

If I go 20000% on this and give it some absurd crit something, and in the future we change Quarterstaves by changing Thief Acrobat or Henshin or add a universal pole-vaulting tree, then we'll have to go back and firmly smack the Staff of Shadows with 14 individual nerfs and it'll be a whole thing and they'll be 20 pages of discussion about how we hate quarterstaves and pole-vaulting and the Olympics.

[Iriale]

It's not the job of itemization to fix balance problems between weapon styles, and overpumping this would be a big mistake. Ideally, each weapon style - and weapon - is matched in DPS or utility or some niche way versus each other. If you are worried that a Quarterstaff with appropriate dice (and the bonus I'll regret adding of a bonus crit mult) is not performing well versus a greatsword, we should buff Quarterstaves as a whole, not buff THIS quarterstaff to compensate for a class/weapon style/combat technique imbalance.

If I go 20000% on this and give it some absurd crit something, and in the future we change Quarterstaves by changing Thief Acrobat or Henshin or add a universal pole-vaulting tree, then we'll have to go back and firmly smack the Staff of Shadows with 14 individual nerfs and it'll be a whole thing and they'll be 20 pages of discussion about how we hate quarterstaves and pole-vaulting and the Olympics.

but Sos has an expanded critic in a weapon with a better critical profile. Why deny the expanded critical to a weapon woth worse critical profile?

And devs still do not know that combat with qstaffs does not compete well today?

[NarutoArgo]

This is a great jumping off point into a post I should have made quite some time ago, but here's the mathematical proof that the current Staff of Shadows is better than Bloom in damage by a significant margin:

Assuming: the character is using completely equivalent gear/feats/everything when comparing these weapons, that 3.5 is the average of 1d6 and 9.5 is the average of 1d6+6, and in combat the character only misses on a 1:

An Epic Elemental Bloom with 5[1d6] and 18-20/x3 does (5 * 3.5 = 17.5) on a non-crit and (17.5 * 3 = 52.5) on a crit. On an average 20 hits, they will miss once (0), hit 16 times, and crit 3 times. 16 hits (16 * 17.5 = 280) and 3 crits (3 * 52.5 = 157.5) make a total of 473.5 damage across 20 hits, for an average of 21.875 per hit.

A Staff of Shadows with 5[1d6+6] and a 20/x3 does (5 * 9.5 = 47.5) on a non-crit and (47.5 * 3 = 142.5) on a crit. On an average 20 hits, they will miss once (0), hit 18 times, and crit once. 18 hits (18 * 47.5 = 855) and 1 crit (1 * 142.5 = 142.5) make a total of 997.5 damage across 20 hits, for an average of 49.875 per hit.

This is just my back of the napkin math, but the loaded dice more than compensate for relying on the base critical threat of a weapon.

You're comparing apples to oranges. Its hardly fair to compare preu37 loot with post u37 loot. There was a complete overall on the dice of endgame gear whereas 1d6 vs 1d6+6. Lets take the Gulthias Staff for example. This weapon is 5[1d6+6] and it isn't meant to mimic a weapon that has extremely high base damage. I understand that that is still higher than say the rapier from u37 which is 1d6+3, or even the khopesh which is 1d8+3, however, when factoring in crit profile both of them outperform.

Lets use your math but lets factor in feats since the crit range increase is different.
"A Staff of Shadows with 5[1d6+6] and a 19-20/x3 does (5 * 9.5 = 47.5) on a non-crit and (47.5 * 3 = 142.5) on a crit. On an average 20 hits, they will miss once (0), hit 18 times, and crit once. 18 hits (18 * 47.5 = 855) and 2 crit (2 * 285 = 142.5) make a total of 997.5 damage across 20 hits, for an average of 49.875 per hit."

Lets apply that same math to the khopesh or something with a similar to the crit profile of the ESOS that you guys are mimicking.
Calamity, with 5[1d6+3] and a 17-20x3 does (5 * 6.5 = 32.5) on a non-crit and (32.5 * 3 = 97.5) on a crit. So out of 20 hits you will have 3 crits on average and 16 hits. 16 hits (15 * 32.5 = 520) and 3 crits is (4 * 97.5 = 390) now lets take into consideration that most, if not all, of the other weapons have on hit damage. So using calamity 2d8 and crit damage that it has your looking at another 10 damage per hit and and average of 239.5 damage per crit which brings the numbers to (190+ 239.5 * 4 = 1,148). Taking this and with the base damage your looking at (1,148 + 520 + 390 = 2058) This isn't taking into consideration the disintegrate.


Im aware there are other weapons, most of which have at least 9d6 extra damage per hit, so that would be 31.5 damage per hit, or in other words 598.5 damage out of 20 attacks.


The staff doesn't compete.

[barecm]

Chaosbow Longbow
Damage Dice: 5[1d8+3]
9d6 Chaotic Damage (Lawful characters will take a neg level)
Improved Destruction
Elasticity (+1 Mult on 19-20)
Ranged Alacrity 25%
Red Augment Slot
Orange Augment Slot

This is markedly worse than the age of rage (non raid) bow. same chaotic damage. swap keen for improved destruction = 2w loss, ranged alacrity for heartseaker where most would have the permahaste feat by this level. it wouldn't even be a swap weapon with the age of rage bow since it's same damage type.

I agree for this bow. I am reading a lot of folks saying how awesome it will be, and others not so much. I am on the not so much side. 3% speed increase (yes, proper archers have haste feat) is not worth the effort. Make it a 5% insightful bonus or something that stacks. Elasticity is fine. Imp destruction is nice but no wow factor either. Chaotic damage is pedestrian. Standard damage for a lvl 29 item; raid or non raid.

What will fix this is turning 25% ranged alacrity into a 5% insightful bonus. If you are going to add 2 augments, please make some lvl 29 worthy augments to put in there! Augments seem to have fallen off a long time ago... we need some new imaginative choices here. I am not advocating an increased crit range (as I think that idea made things out of control for a while), but there needs to be something with more flash or creativity.

As is, this is a poorly thought out, rather bland addition that does not really give you anything new or exciting. I get the feeling that whomever was working on this kind of mailed it in.... not much effort on this one.