Rogue - Thief-Acrobat Changes

[Severlin]

~ Fast Movement now adds 1% per Rogue level. It stacks with everything. Since it scales based on Rogue levels, we don't think this allows for a character who can obtain speeds that they get get now, except a Monk 18/Rogue 2 will be 2% faster and we don't that option is problematic enough to implement a complicated anti-req or stacking system.

If players can see some build we missed that can actually achieve speeds greater that what is currently possible drop us a line because that is not our intent.

~ Modified Staff Lunge so you can sweep through enemies while it is activating. This allows players to lunge into the center of a group and deliver the AoE at the end of the lunge. Note that since the AoE attack occurs at the end of the lunge players will need to not lunge past enemies or the AoE portion will fire off after you are past the enemies.

In testing it was easy to deliver this if you weren't pressing the forward key, and harder if you were pressing the forward key since the initial part of the attack carries you further.

~ We aren't currently plan on giving out free feats as they eats into the Fighter advantage.

Sev~

[btolson]

How about a percentage equal to your Rogue levels, capped by your armor's MDB? That's a decent bonus for a pure Rogue over the splashes (even the 13/6/1s like mine) and ensures that Heavy Armor Staff Paladins wouldn't take it instead of the Sacred Defender stance. The straight mitigation could be better than 25 PRR/MRR at higher levels. Restricting it to physical damage is a good choice, since it does not buff the (already adequate) Evasion defense against magic.

I don't think it should scale off rogue levels, because that will put rogue MC's in basically the same spot they are now -- Stalwart will be better. It is a t5 ability so it likely won't be seen on many non-staff builds, especially since Stalwart may still be better for some builds and is easier to reach.

I also don't think it should take MDB into account, since this is a fairly trivial cap for light armor and would still probably go too high on heavy armor for those who build for it. You raised a good issue though, and I think the solution is to simply make the stance require Light or No Armor in order to function, just as Greater Stalwart has its complementary restrictions.

[BigErkyKid]

~ We aren't currently plan on giving out free feats as they eats into the Fighter advantage.

Sev~

So I gather from your proposal that you think that acrobats are not so behind the current power frontier that they deserve major changes? Paladins and barbarians got game changing (some say game breaking) upgrades.

All I see from the rogues' proposal is a few dodge points and some DBs. This is not a big upgrade, I think it might be easy to show that a paladin 15 / rogue 4 could outperform any more rogue you throw in, which sort of tells us that your upgrade isn't much.

Maybe I am not seeing it right but it does seem there is inconsistency in what you are doing in the class upgrades. Take for instance the paladin changes, VG and KOTC and the class upgrade was very powerful. However, the defender tree remains a pile of...not useful stuff.

Why don't upgrade ALL classes according to new standards (melee power, multipliers), including racial abilities, bard songs and long forgotten class abilities? At this point the game is full of gimp options.

[Caprice]

I don't think it should scale off rogue levels, because that will put rogue MC's in basically the same spot they are now -- Stalwart will be better. It is a t5 ability so it likely won't be seen on many non-staff builds, especially since Stalwart may still be better for some builds and is easier to reach.

I also don't think it should take MDB into account, since this is a fairly trivial cap for light armor and would still probably go too high on heavy armor for those who build for it. You raised a good issue though, and I think the solution is to simply make the stance require Light or No Armor in order to function, just as Greater Stalwart has its complementary restrictions.

I want to offer bigger bonuses to pure builds than multiclassed ones (including my own 13/6/1). We need more reasons to be pure. Splashed builds are already getting much better survivability (e.g. 25% incorporeality from Monk's Shadow Veil, Heavy Armor from Fighter or Paladin) so why should they be allowed to "double dip" and get the full bonuses of multiple trees? That's reinforcing the current disincentives. I also find the Dexterity based idea somewhat less appealing because it penalizes pure Rogue Strength builds, and I think that they deserve at least as much support from the Rogue prestige as multiclasses do.

[Iriale]

~ Fast Movement now adds 1% per Rogue level. It stacks with everything. Since it scales based on Rogue levels, we don't think this allows for a character who can obtain speeds that they get get now, except a Monk 18/Rogue 2 will be 2% faster and we don't that option is problematic enough to implement a complicated anti-req or stacking system.

If players can see some build we missed that can actually achieve speeds greater that what is currently possible drop us a line because that is not our intent.

~ Modified Staff Lunge so you can sweep through enemies while it is activating. This allows players to lunge into the center of a group and deliver the AoE at the end of the lunge. Note that since the AoE attack occurs at the end of the lunge players will need to not lunge past enemies or the AoE portion will fire off after you are past the enemies.

In testing it was easy to deliver this if you weren't pressing the forward key, and harder if you were pressing the forward key since the initial part of the attack carries you further.

~ We aren't currently plan on giving out free feats as they eats into the Fighter advantage.

Sev~

Tactical trapsmith (skill performance!!! rogue thing--- not fighter thing) or the movement part of spring attack (hey, movement: acrobat thing, not fighter thing) are not feats per se, are things that a thief acrobat should have… nobody ask for cleaves or THF feats for free. You give to pallies feats that are fighter feats, but Tactical trapsmith or movement while attacking are not fighter features.

and please, TAs need more better defensive and healing options...

[IronClan]

So I gather from your proposal that you think that acrobats are not so behind the current power frontier that they deserve major changes? Paladins and barbarians got game changing (some say game breaking) upgrades.

All I see from the rogues' proposal is a few dodge points and some DBs. This is not a big upgrade, I think it might be easy to show that a paladin 15 / rogue 4 could outperform any more rogue you throw in, which sort of tells us that your upgrade isn't much.

Maybe I am not seeing it right but it does seem there is inconsistency in what you are doing in the class upgrades. Take for instance the paladin changes, VG and KOTC and the class upgrade was very powerful. However, the defender tree remains a pile of...not useful stuff.

Why don't upgrade ALL classes according to new standards (melee power, multipliers), including racial abilities, bard songs and long forgotten class abilities? At this point the game is full of gimp options.

Staff builds on live are already among the top DPS in the game* and have layered defenses that put them close to armored DPS oriented builds for PRR, give them better miss chance, and give them evasion which is better than MRR.

*disclaimer: weaponized, non broken, melee etc.

The one area that hurts them is they must have 6 monk for Shadow veil or else be stuck with a poor Destiny.

For this reason I would like to see very high Rogue acrobat investment (15+) get increasing amounts of dodge+cap that helps compensate for not having 25% incorporeal from monk levels.

I believe they are doing exactly what you're asking for in your last sentence. it's just that they are now into the less weak classes (and indeed in the case of Staff builds already very good): for example Acrobat ALREADY HAS +1 range and X1 multiplier and has tremendous Monk synergies. Including some of the highest possible base damage in the game, along with some named weapons that unlike almost all other named weapons are actually still better than a TF version. I'm frankly surprised they are improving it.

[kauetomaz]

~ Fast Movement now adds 1% per Rogue level. It stacks with everything. Since it scales based on Rogue levels, we don't think this allows for a character who can obtain speeds that they get get now, except a Monk 18/Rogue 2 will be 2% faster and we don't that option is problematic enough to implement a complicated anti-req or stacking system.

If players can see some build we missed that can actually achieve speeds greater that what is currently possible drop us a line because that is not our intent.

~ Modified Staff Lunge so you can sweep through enemies while it is activating. This allows players to lunge into the center of a group and deliver the AoE at the end of the lunge. Note that since the AoE attack occurs at the end of the lunge players will need to not lunge past enemies or the AoE portion will fire off after you are past the enemies.

In testing it was easy to deliver this if you weren't pressing the forward key, and harder if you were pressing the forward key since the initial part of the attack carries you further.

~ We aren't currently plan on giving out free feats as they eats into the Fighter advantage.

Sev~

instead of posting here how about you address the 7 hour unannounced downtime that has been extended for over 1:30 hours so far and still no word of it? seriously 8 1/2 hours without so much as an explanation seems more important then you coming here talking about rogues like nothing is wrong with the game we pay for and cant access

[Saekee]

~ Fast Movement now adds 1% per Rogue level. It stacks with everything. Since it scales based on Rogue levels, we don't think this allows for a character who can obtain speeds that they get get now, except a Monk 18/Rogue 2 will be 2% faster and we don't that option is problematic enough to implement a complicated anti-req or stacking system.

If players can see some build we missed that can actually achieve speeds greater that what is currently possible drop us a line because that is not our intent.

~ Modified Staff Lunge so you can sweep through enemies while it is activating. This allows players to lunge into the center of a group and deliver the AoE at the end of the lunge. Note that since the AoE attack occurs at the end of the lunge players will need to not lunge past enemies or the AoE portion will fire off after you are past the enemies.

In testing it was easy to deliver this if you weren't pressing the forward key, and harder if you were pressing the forward key since the initial part of the attack carries you further.

~ We aren't currently plan on giving out free feats as they eats into the Fighter advantage.

Sev~

Thx Sev--this is exciting and gives an incentive to not simply be 14 Pally/ then rogue for those of us that love a little speed

[Thrudh]

~ Fast Movement now adds 1% per Rogue level. It stacks with everything. Since it scales based on Rogue levels, we don't think this allows for a character who can obtain speeds that they get get now, except a Monk 18/Rogue 2 will be 2% faster and we don't that option is problematic enough to implement a complicated anti-req or stacking system.

If players can see some build we missed that can actually achieve speeds greater that what is currently possible drop us a line because that is not our intent.

~ Modified Staff Lunge so you can sweep through enemies while it is activating. This allows players to lunge into the center of a group and deliver the AoE at the end of the lunge. Note that since the AoE attack occurs at the end of the lunge players will need to not lunge past enemies or the AoE portion will fire off after you are past the enemies.

In testing it was easy to deliver this if you weren't pressing the forward key, and harder if you were pressing the forward key since the initial part of the attack carries you further.

~ We aren't currently plan on giving out free feats as they eats into the Fighter advantage.

Sev~

These (and the other changes you posted) look great... Thanks Sev.... My barbarian/rogue staff guy is going to love this.

[Severlin]

So I gather from your proposal that you think that acrobats are not so behind the current power frontier that they deserve major changes?

Correct.

Sev~

[HuneyMunster]

~ We aren't currently plan on giving out free feats as they eats into the Fighter advantage.

Sev~

The only feat that missing from Rogue special abilities is Bonus Feat option. Why not allow this to be taken at Rogue 19 as replacement option instead of either of the usual left over options after Improved Evasion, Opportunist and Defensive Roll/Skill Mastery have been taken.

This way it does not give rogues extra feats and requires a heavy investment into rogue.

[BigErkyKid]

Staff builds on live are already among the top DPS in the game* and have layered defenses that put them close to armored DPS oriented builds for PRR, give them better miss chance, and give them evasion which is better than MRR.

Define staff build? Read below.

Correct.

Sev~

So maybe I am missing something, but how isn't something along the lines of paladin 15 / rogue 3 add whatever base more powerful than any build that includes more rogue for a staff build?

My understanding is that staff builds excel in:

- Attack speed (but it is very low hanging fruit)
- Double strike (again low hanging and AFAIK stacking with zeal)

So why should I go more rogue instead of getting awesomeness from the KOTC tree? Why not grab some defender while I am at it?

When you upgraded paladin and barbarian you made it very hard not to go pure. I don't see this happening at all for rogue staff builds. But maybe I am missing something? Care to illuminate me?

[Iriale]

Correct.

Sev~

Would you want at least consider the idea of tactical trapsmith? TAs are not only acrobats, are thieves too... and as rogues, is frustrating that is hard to get a good DC in disable / search. It's ok that for a small splash of rogue, but for a rogue o mostly rogue build? Dex-based build is a hard hit to your trapping performance. And hey this is not a fighter thing, certainly.

And sorry, but I think that better defensive and healing options are needed... your changes mean that the multiclass will remain almost mandatory.

[Basic_Uncaring]

Momentum Defense: Each time you are struck with an attack you gain +1 to your Dodge and Maximum Dodge for 12 seconds. This stacks up to ten times. (Each hit refreshes all stacks, stacks fall off all at once.)

Kinda weak for being a tier 5 ench. Is it too much to look at others classes tier 5 skills and compare?

Being hit just to get a +1 dodge for 12 seconds sucks even when u max the stacks to 10 cause you are going to be hit a LOT anyway and in EE content you can be sure you are pretty much dead if you get hit 4 or 5 times within 12 and cannot heal quickly. As always the problem is being avoided. Give rogues something USEFUL. If bards can oneshot things at tier 5 and paladins reach 11/20 in crit. threat using a great sword let rogues be at least comparable to them since it was TURBINE who broke the toy in the first place!


How about something that can actually justify raising rogue levels instead of simply splashing 2 levels for evasion, trap skills or 5 levels to get the increased threat range with quarterstaff and then using other classes? Seems to me like you can't balance a class without making it extremely overpowered or underpowered (just like the barbarians that still sucks)

[Saekee]

Define staff build? Read below.



So maybe I am missing something, but how isn't something along the lines of paladin 15 / rogue 3 add whatever base more powerful than any build that includes more rogue for a staff build?

My understanding is that staff builds excel in:

- Attack speed (but it is very low hanging fruit)
- Double strike (again low hanging and AFAIK stacking with zeal)

So why should I go more rogue instead of getting awesomeness from the KOTC tree? Why not grab some defender while I am at it?

When you upgraded paladin and barbarian you made it very hard not to go pure. I don't see this happening at all for rogue staff builds. But maybe I am missing something? Care to illuminate me?

I raised this question some posts back--ultimately, the enhancements must be weighed against the split you mention. Faster speed, boosts to dodge etc. are so far the tradeoffs. I don't think the sneak attack damage will be vastly more than the pally bonuses. I do like the cheaper haste and damage boosts. Anyway my plans for sig's dex build will be affected by these changes and am curious how it will play out.

[BigErkyKid]

I raised this question some posts back--ultimately, the enhancements must be weighed against the split you mention. Faster speed, boosts to dodge etc. are so far the tradeoffs. I don't think the sneak attack damage will be vastly more than the pally bonuses. I do like the cheaper haste and damage boosts. Anyway my plans for sig's dex build will be affected by these changes and am curious how it will play out.

Right. Sorry, I didn't see it. But I think this is the first that comes to anyone's mind. And unless I am doing something wrong (and I am completely willing to admit that), I fail to see how it holds a candle against the paladin build.

[Severlin]

So why should I go more rogue instead of getting awesomeness from the KOTC tree? Why not grab some defender while I am at it?

When you upgraded paladin and barbarian you made it very hard not to go pure. I don't see this happening at all for rogue staff builds. But maybe I am missing something? Care to illuminate me?

You mean what do you give up in 15 levels of rogue to make a Paladin based Thief Acrobat? You are giving up:

10 dice worth of sneak attack damage
Improved Evasion, Slippery Mind
16% Bonus run speed (Paladin's need to dip into Sacred Defender for run speed)
+3 damage with staves
5% attack speed
5% double strike (made up for by Zeal)
Knockdown immunity

Since you are already getting your improved critical profile from Acrobat the large incentive to go 14 Paladin is largely based on Zeal and the Light Damage.

That looks like an even trade off to me. I think you could make an argument for going 16 Rogue and 4 Paladin honestly.

Sev~

[Mryal]

You mean what do you give up in 15 levels of rogue to make a Paladin based Thief Acrobat? You are giving up:

10 dice worth of sneak attack damage
Improved Evasion, Slippery Mind
16% Bonus run speed (Paladin's need to dip into Sacred Defender for run speed)
+3 damage with staves
5% attack speed
5% double strike (made up for by Zeal)
Knockdown immunity

Since you are already getting your improved critical profile from Acrobat the large incentive to go 14 Paladin is largely based on Zeal and the Light Damage.

That looks like an even trade off to me. I think you could make an argument for going 16 Rogue and 4 Paladin honestly.

Sev~

Just found out you can give + rep to devs.Btw i saw the other post...wait, no i didnt say anything.

[BigErkyKid]

You mean what do you give up in 15 levels of rogue to make a Paladin based Thief Acrobat? You are giving up:

10 dice worth of sneak attack damage
Improved Evasion, Slippery Mind
16% Bonus run speed (Paladin's need to dip into Sacred Defender for run speed)
+3 damage with staves
5% attack speed
5% double strike (made up for by Zeal)
Knockdown immunity

Since you are already getting your improved critical profile from Acrobat the large incentive to go 14 Paladin is largely based on Zeal and the Light Damage.

That looks like an even trade off to me. I think you could make an argument for going 16 Rogue and 4 Paladin honestly.

Sev~

So maybe I am doing it wrong, but to me attack speed and DBs are equivalent. The reason being that they both result in more attacks per second, but they don't benefit cleave attacks. A 5% chance of double striking is equivalent to attacking 5% faster.

So I see (paladin left, rogue right)

Zeal (10% DBs) VS 5% DBs and 5% attack speed: so its a wash.
Evasion + saves from paladin VS improved evasion and slipper mind: unclear, since you could splash paladin to get the saves, in any case it favors the rogue. However since armor up a lot of people will say evasion is not a great deal.
Paladin cleaves, smites and light damage vs rogue SA: Half the sneak attack is covered by the light damage, which does not require sneak attack conditions.

And then you have all the healing brought by the paladin vs the general problem of rogues (cocoon and scrolls for fleshies not measuring against paladin heals). If you go paladin, probably you'll grab KOTC healing amp to make it even more obvious that it is more survivable. Finally, paladin frees up a lot of enhancement points by giving the crit profile for free, allowing you to take sneak attack and other bonus stuff from other trees if that's what you want.

To sum it up, I don't see a big gain in DPS even going "very rogue" and I see a very substantial decrease in survivability through much lessened heals. I don't even know if it is not possible to get more DPS on the paladin through a good combination of trees, to be honest, since the rogue has little to offer besides the SA.

It doesn't seem like a fair trade off to me. Maybe others think otherwise?

[Basic_Uncaring]

You mean what do you give up in 15 levels of rogue to make a Paladin based Thief Acrobat? You are giving up:

10 dice worth of sneak attack damage
Improved Evasion, Slippery Mind
16% Bonus run speed (Paladin's need to dip into Sacred Defender for run speed)
+3 damage with staves
5% attack speed
5% double strike (made up for by Zeal)
Knockdown immunity

Since you are already getting your improved critical profile from Acrobat the large incentive to go 14 Paladin is largely based on Zeal and the Light Damage.

That looks like an even trade off to me. I think you could make an argument for going 16 Rogue and 4 Paladin honestly.

Sev~

Improved evasion is useless anyway since a pally can use charisma mod to saves and evade everything anyway
Running speed is a non advantage since can be easily covered with gears and sacred defense (and haste pots)
+3 damage with staves is way outclassed by holy sword
attack speed can be covered by gear and haste pots

that leaves sneak damage (useless when soloing unless your improved deception item procs like 100% of the time wich is impossible)
Knockdown immunity.

Seems fair?