Is the game dead for end-game players?

[Thrudh]

Eh its more that we got bored. I've done 100s of all those raids and over 500 (at least) of mods, dojs, shadowdragon, firepeaks. I've also probably have done over 1000 Fall of Truths.

Well come on dude... Of course you are bored. Do you really expect you can play the same game for 10,000 hours and not get bored? This isn't a major design flaw that is 100% SSG's fault. Sure, they could do more to make an interesting end-game, but there's no way any company in the world can keep up with players like you.

[Zzevel]

It is just dead.. Last night I popped into Evening star on Sarlona and the Weapon Vendor in the square didnr even have a full screen of weapons till I sold a bunch... (I even did an instance check and there was not multiple). Looked at the LFM list 7 real groups up 2 ghost LFMs, nothing in my range but an LFM with 6 people in it stuc in the On... Yay

Ran a reaper solo, maint, logged iff

[levy1964]

Hi all,

Several months ago I started to play DDO again 'seriously'.
I wanted to make a good DC caster and I decided to do a few TR lives to finish my ideas, so that I could get back into end-game.

Then reaper was released, and everyone started to TR to get reaper XP.
I didn't really mind that, I threw in a few additional lives to also get reaper XP but quickly I noticed it's just a huge grind for more power creep.
If I want to make a near optimal end-game character I'd have to TR over and over, to get the additional DCs, HP and whatnot.

Now, in the update in about 2 hours, we'll get racial pastlifes.
I'd be totally fine with this if it was just for the skill bonus and stats, but the additional APs just seem to much.
Now I feel like I should be doing even more lives to get the perfect amount of APs to get a strong character.

Yes, I know I don't HAVE to do all of this, but I like to make a near perfect toon to play endgame with. (Read: i don't want 3x completionist and all epic lifes, but more like 1x completionist and 3x wiz/fvs pastlifes for high return/cost)
But recently this just seems too much, and it appears to be hamster wheel after another and endgame seems dead.
I already gave up on several alts, which used to be awesome years ago in quite some raids. I am now down to 2 main toons.
(And even those 2 toons seem to much nowadays. Since reaper XP is such a HUGE grind and it's not account-shared, why would I want to play 2 toons and split my reaper XP?)
(This has another effect I really don't like. People play just 1 toon nowadays, and when they are not in epic-levels, they won't bother logging on another toon to play raids with (or end-game dungeon runs or so))

So, the game seems to just drive me away more and more.
Does anyone feel the same, or should I look at it all in a different perspective?

after i doing some PL what i need on my favor end-character build, i playing with friends just 4fun (why here is so quiet?...ohh...a lions! "small problem" xD ) and almost 9 year i like create LFM for all! not care any restriction what Dev's added to game, bravery bonus? some penetly? whos care, wanna join my ee deathwyrm on 21 ? come mate idc, is ur chellange!, haha

but do u know? up34 i cursed and u cannot anymore play ur favorite character, ur favorite quest or raids if u are lvl 30, becouse quest was lock u cant step even with -100% to xp

thats it's mean, whatever u do is impossible play in game how u like...

do we feel the same?

[Whitering]

I presume there are some players out there who play games mostly because they enjoy the gameplay rather than the results of said gameplay. Depending on the build I enjoy just playing the game or get a sinking feeling as I madly grind exp to get through a tedious life. End game, well, I think it's pretty clear that the main end game is triple tring so, it's not dead because they keep reviving it periodically.

[TedSandyman]

I know, I'm weird. I don't think there should be a thing called endgame. Endgame is FAR more boring that the so called tr hamster wheel.

You can tr and level up as you play the same old content but try a different race and class. You can build your toon and grow stronger. Find the weaknesses and strengths. Explore the same old content, but with a different set of powers so that you look at things differently and try different tactics. New challenges new experiences. The very opposite of boring.

Or you can be stuck at level 30 and just play the same old content and have no option of leveling, nothing different to ever look forward to. Nothing except maybe getting a new sword or belt that you always wanted. Then you get it and you go back to being bored. Same old quest, same old powers, same old boring.

You end gamers will never be happy with this game (or any other game really) because there is no way to make you happy. The problem is you and your expectations that are completely unrealistic and you are too focused on getting things and not focused enough on the experience (the experience not the experience points).

If they added 100 quests to end game, you would find the 4 or 5 that give the best loot and only run those 4 or 5. And then complain about being bored and how crappy endgame is because only those 4 or 5 quests are worth playing. When the truth is, in a limited world, there is always going to be a very few quests that give the best xp and loot regardless of the number of other options out there. If you choose to only run those quests because you only want loot or xp then you have completely missed the point of this or any other game and you will ALWAYS be bored playing those few quests.

The hamster wheel IS the game. It is what keeps the game fresh. The developers know it, even if you don't. That is why reaper wasn't applied ONLY to end game. That is why racial reincarnation was added. It is to force you to try new things that you are too stubborn to do on your own. It is because you get so bored doing the same thing over and over again, but you refuse to change and you keep doing those same boring things over and over again instead of trying something new. So if you treat it like you have in the past, and only zerg through for the benefits, you can get back to being bored again real quick.

In a game like Doom, you start at the beginning and then you work your way through a linear story line and then you get to the end and you are done. Some people brag about how fast they finished the game. I cant think of a stupider thing to brag about. Or in this game, going from level 1 to level 30 in two days, or however long it takes. I can't even begin to imagine what drives a person to think that is fun. You are ignoring all of the content and options and going for sheer speed. It is like going to a museum and bragging about how fast you made it through. Or bragging about how fast you finished a good steak.

When you finish a game like Doom in 2 days, what is left? You got to enjoy the game for a very, VERY short time. But if you take it slow, and try to find out all of the hidden items and do all of the optionals, you can make the game last a few weeks and your time of enjoyment is much longer.

With an MMO the problem is compounded. To keep you interested for years on end is hard. And if you don't care one bit about the content, and all you care about is getting to the end and the gear, you will never be happy with any mmo. Even if there is no level cap, you would eventually realize that the randomly generated dungeons that would have to be a part of that type of game, only give the same content scrambled around, you would still get bored quickly. Maybe even quicker.

If you want to enjoy this game, you have to slow down and make it last. If you follow some build off of the Internet and only do the trs required to make that one, all powerful build, and you zerg through those trs and finish your god-toon, then yes, you are going to sit at end game and be very, very bored. There is no reason to tr again, because you have all of the benefits you need. You don't care about challenge because you can run all of the content on elite without being killed. You only care about getting that next level of weapon, and once you have it, there is nothing. And that will be true of any game you ever play.

So the question is how to enjoy this game? Play it as intended. Work through a life. Pick a class and pick a race. Don't follow some build. Make your toon yours. Play it how you would like to play it. Advance it the way you want and enjoy that life. Level up. Get more powerful. Learn the ins and outs. Maybe realize you should have done something differently.

Play all of the content, not just the quests that give the greatest xp. Don't run water works 5 times (how boring is that?), run all of the harbor quests. Yeah, you have run them before, but probably not in a while. It is far less BORING than running water works 5 times. Put up LFMs. Meet people. Do the optionals. If you're in a group with struggling players, don't run off and leave them, stay with them a protect them, help them through. Give them advice. Don't yell at them. Spend a week, or better, a month getting to level 20. Then tr and try the class again, maybe with a different race. Fix those things you realized you did wrong. Explore the races and classes the way you might explore a dungeon. TR because you want to try new things with this class, not because it gives you some bonus.

Go for completionist, not for the feat, but because you want to try all of the classes. I did. I thought I wouldn't enjoy some of the classes, but I found every one of them fun to play. And I found some that I particularly liked, so I played them more. Not for any benefit, but because it was fun. Now I will probably try some odd combination races, just to see how they work and to get some racial bonuses of course, but I wont be racing through just to get all of the bonuses as quickly as possible. Maybe I'll play a warforged assassin. That sounds fun.

My current toon is a paladin/warlock. People tell me all of the time, that wont be worth having at endgame. A pure warlock would have been better. But I don't care, I don't plan on hanging around endgame for long. Yeah, he doesn't kill with anywhere near the efficiency of a pure warlock, but he's a blast to play (literally). And really, having fun is so much more important than having the perfect build.

So if you are bored at endgame, my reply is, well duh. If you want a challenge, then don't do all of the steps that completely remove any challenge. You are bored because you are playing the game wrong. And if the idea of slowing down and trying different things isn't for you, then you will never be happy, and yeah, you might as well quit. Because no amount of end game content will ever make you happy.

[Thrudh]

Some people brag about how fast they finished the game. I cant think of a stupider thing to brag about. Or in this game, going from level 1 to level 30 in two days, or however long it takes. I can't even begin to imagine what drives a person to think that is fun. You are ignoring all of the content and options and going for sheer speed. It is like going to a museum and bragging about how fast you made it through. Or bragging about how fast you finished a good steak.

Sig-worthy.

[nokowi]

So if you are bored at endgame, my reply is, well duh. If you want a challenge, then don't do all of the steps that completely remove any challenge. You are bored because you are playing the game wrong. And if the idea of slowing down and trying different things isn't for you, then you will never be happy, and yeah, you might as well quit. Because no amount of end game content will ever make you happy.

The idea that you play the game correctly and others play it wrong is simply 100% false.

We all the play the game the way we want to.

If DDO can meet more of our preferences, they have more players and make more money.

[nokowi]

Sig-worthy.

Sig worthy in it's falseness.

[Chai]

I know, I'm weird. I don't think there should be a thing called endgame. Endgame is FAR more boring that the so called tr hamster wheel.

You can tr and level up as you play the same old content but try a different race and class. You can build your toon and grow stronger. Find the weaknesses and strengths. Explore the same old content, but with a different set of powers so that you look at things differently and try different tactics. New challenges new experiences. The very opposite of boring.

Or you can be stuck at level 30 and just play the same old content and have no option of leveling, nothing different to ever look forward to. Nothing except maybe getting a new sword or belt that you always wanted. Then you get it and you go back to being bored. Same old quest, same old powers, same old boring.

You end gamers will never be happy with this game (or any other game really) because there is no way to make you happy. The problem is you and your expectations that are completely unrealistic and you are too focused on getting things and not focused enough on the experience (the experience not the experience points).

If they added 100 quests to end game, you would find the 4 or 5 that give the best loot and only run those 4 or 5. And then complain about being bored and how crappy endgame is because only those 4 or 5 quests are worth playing. When the truth is, in a limited world, there is always going to be a very few quests that give the best xp and loot regardless of the number of other options out there. If you choose to only run those quests because you only want loot or xp then you have completely missed the point of this or any other game and you will ALWAYS be bored playing those few quests.

The hamster wheel IS the game. It is what keeps the game fresh. The developers know it, even if you don't. That is why reaper wasn't applied ONLY to end game. That is why racial reincarnation was added. It is to force you to try new things that you are too stubborn to do on your own. It is because you get so bored doing the same thing over and over again, but you refuse to change and you keep doing those same boring things over and over again instead of trying something new. So if you treat it like you have in the past, and only zerg through for the benefits, you can get back to being bored again real quick.

In a game like Doom, you start at the beginning and then you work your way through a linear story line and then you get to the end and you are done. Some people brag about how fast they finished the game. I cant think of a stupider thing to brag about. Or in this game, going from level 1 to level 30 in two days, or however long it takes. I can't even begin to imagine what drives a person to think that is fun. You are ignoring all of the content and options and going for sheer speed. It is like going to a museum and bragging about how fast you made it through. Or bragging about how fast you finished a good steak.

When you finish a game like Doom in 2 days, what is left? You got to enjoy the game for a very, VERY short time. But if you take it slow, and try to find out all of the hidden items and do all of the optionals, you can make the game last a few weeks and your time of enjoyment is much longer.

With an MMO the problem is compounded. To keep you interested for years on end is hard. And if you don't care one bit about the content, and all you care about is getting to the end and the gear, you will never be happy with any mmo. Even if there is no level cap, you would eventually realize that the randomly generated dungeons that would have to be a part of that type of game, only give the same content scrambled around, you would still get bored quickly. Maybe even quicker.

If you want to enjoy this game, you have to slow down and make it last. If you follow some build off of the Internet and only do the trs required to make that one, all powerful build, and you zerg through those trs and finish your god-toon, then yes, you are going to sit at end game and be very, very bored. There is no reason to tr again, because you have all of the benefits you need. You don't care about challenge because you can run all of the content on elite without being killed. You only care about getting that next level of weapon, and once you have it, there is nothing. And that will be true of any game you ever play.

So the question is how to enjoy this game? Play it as intended. Work through a life. Pick a class and pick a race. Don't follow some build. Make your toon yours. Play it how you would like to play it. Advance it the way you want and enjoy that life. Level up. Get more powerful. Learn the ins and outs. Maybe realize you should have done something differently.

Play all of the content, not just the quests that give the greatest xp. Don't run water works 5 times (how boring is that?), run all of the harbor quests. Yeah, you have run them before, but probably not in a while. It is far less BORING than running water works 5 times. Put up LFMs. Meet people. Do the optionals. If you're in a group with struggling players, don't run off and leave them, stay with them a protect them, help them through. Give them advice. Don't yell at them. Spend a week, or better, a month getting to level 20. Then tr and try the class again, maybe with a different race. Fix those things you realized you did wrong. Explore the races and classes the way you might explore a dungeon. TR because you want to try new things with this class, not because it gives you some bonus.

Go for completionist, not for the feat, but because you want to try all of the classes. I did. I thought I wouldn't enjoy some of the classes, but I found every one of them fun to play. And I found some that I particularly liked, so I played them more. Not for any benefit, but because it was fun. Now I will probably try some odd combination races, just to see how they work and to get some racial bonuses of course, but I wont be racing through just to get all of the bonuses as quickly as possible. Maybe I'll play a warforged assassin. That sounds fun.

My current toon is a paladin/warlock. People tell me all of the time, that wont be worth having at endgame. A pure warlock would have been better. But I don't care, I don't plan on hanging around endgame for long. Yeah, he doesn't kill with anywhere near the efficiency of a pure warlock, but he's a blast to play (literally). And really, having fun is so much more important than having the perfect build.

So if you are bored at endgame, my reply is, well duh. If you want a challenge, then don't do all of the steps that completely remove any challenge. You are bored because you are playing the game wrong. And if the idea of slowing down and trying different things isn't for you, then you will never be happy, and yeah, you might as well quit. Because no amount of end game content will ever make you happy.

This post is precisely why there needs to be more separation between different types of gamers. Telling other people they are playing the game wrong is 100% incorrect, especially from a marketing standpoint. The major reason why theres so much argumentation regarding who is doing it right and who is doing it wrong, is because people who play the game very differently all occupy the same game space. This creates a situation where the devs implementing suggestions one group wants has major potential to cause the other group(s) to lose out. If players who play very differently occupied different game spaces, then the devs could implement suggestions for each group without causing the other groups to be negatively affected, due to the separation between them. This poster could then enjoy their slow grindy hamster wheel while other folks who like to stay at cap and play there could also do so.

[Chai]

Well come on dude... Of course you are bored. Do you really expect you can play the same game for 10,000 hours and not get bored? This isn't a major design flaw that is 100% SSG's fault. Sure, they could do more to make an interesting end-game, but there's no way any company in the world can keep up with players like you.

Yet there are games which do just that. None of them have a repetitive TR game to fall back on when end game gets boring, because for the endgmers in those games, endgame, doesnt get boring.

[Ellihor]

We need some grind that we can do only at cap. To not add more power creep as a reward for this grind, they could come up with a way to get racial/heroic/epic/iconic past lives by playing at cap.

We could recieve a sort of currency that you get when you complete reaper quests if you are at lv 30, and you can turn this currency into xp talking to a NPC. The prices would vary for epic XP or heroic XP. When you turn in for epic, you get both karma and normal XP, just like when you eat a token.

The higher the skull, the more currency you receive.

This would allow people to progress their characters while playing at cap.

[Vengenance]

Be a champion in private quests focused on adventure, not grind.

[SirValentine]

I don't get it.

You clearly don't.

If you have fun wandering around aimlessly, that's fine. I really don't object.

Some of us did all the wandering we want, and now want to settle down and enjoy the destination. Without them repeatedly jerking it out of reach. Just because you never want to have a destination doesn't mean others having one are somehow playing wrong. I don't know why you object to letting others have their fun, too.

[slarden]

They had a choice about where to focus a year ago. It seemed to be on end game with reaper in the works and quests like slavers. Then they decided to turn reaper into a hamster wheel and tossed out the racial hamster wheel also. Now we know the game is and always will be about hamster wheels.

DDO is a game for persistent people that are driven by goals. There is nothing in this game that is hard to accomplish, it's just a matter of putting in the time or paying for the shortcuts. I don't say that in a negative way - it's just the niche they decided on for DDO.

It will be hard to ever put forth an end game when so many people are still on the hamster wheel. I can't say whether it's good or bad - it's just the way the devs decided to go.

[Mr_Helmet]

You clearly don't.

If you have fun wandering around aimlessly, that's fine. I really don't object.

Some of us did all the wandering we want, and now want to settle down and enjoy the destination. Without them repeatedly jerking it out of reach. Just because you never want to have a destination doesn't mean others having one are somehow playing wrong. I don't know why you object to letting others have their fun, too.

Clearly you are playing wrong if you are doing anything besides riding the hamster wheel.

And when this hamster wheel is done, they'll make up a new one.

There will never be an end-game again in DDO. What makes you think you'll ever be able to settle down in a game where level 30 people are homeless?

Now you go back to the harbor and pump out those halfling lives.