Rogue - Thief-Acrobat Changes

[Chaimberland]

So I gather from your proposal that you think that acrobats are not so behind the current power frontier that they deserve major changes? Paladins and barbarians got game changing (some say game breaking) upgrades.

I'm sorry but acrobat rogues shouldn't be comparable to paladins and barbarians in melee prowess. Acrobat rogues are a specialist class and paladins and barbarians are melee classes. Don't try to make everything the same or the game gets real boring real fast.

[BigErkyKid]

I'm sorry but acrobat rogues shouldn't be comparable to paladins and barbarians in melee prowess. Acrobat rogues are a specialist class and paladins and barbarians are melee classes. Don't try to make everything the same or the game gets real boring real fast.

I am all in for giving specialists something "special". See my signature. However, the question one needs to answer is:

Why is it better to go "more rogue than paladin"? What do I gain by choosing not to get 15 levels of paladin?

And the answer needs to be something substantial that makes up for the many advantages of the paladin, but I cannot see a reason.

[IronClan]

You mean what do you give up in 15 levels of rogue to make a Paladin based Thief Acrobat? You are giving up:

10 dice worth of sneak attack damage
Improved Evasion, Slippery Mind
16% Bonus run speed (Paladin's need to dip into Sacred Defender for run speed)
+3 damage with staves
5% attack speed
5% double strike (made up for by Zeal)
Knockdown immunity

Since you are already getting your improved critical profile from Acrobat the large incentive to go 14 Paladin is largely based on Zeal and the Light Damage.

That looks like an even trade off to me. I think you could make an argument for going 16 Rogue and 4 Paladin honestly.

Sev~

Far better off just dumping the paladin all together, for 6 Monk

19-20X1 from mountain stance
+6 damage line from Henshin
Added dodge and max dodge from Ninja Spy
Sneak Dice in Ninja spy.
25% incorporeal without needing to be in SD.

The Paladin Staff build is not terrible, but it is clunky and is bucking too many non-synergies and losing too many easy ones that you mentioned and I added to. But whatever to each their own.

[Severlin]

Seems fair?

Very. The builds seem very comparable.

If you can't make good use from 10 bonus sneak attack dice (especially once Shiv gives a free Bluff check) then yes, you aren't going to value Rogue levels. That's fine with us. That's why there are multiple classes and alternate playstyles.

As for Paladin heals, they are fine in heroic content but honestly they fall behind later on. Once your Lay on Hands run out (which is very limited unless you are going outside the KotC tree) then you are relying on a small pool of level 3 and 4 spells to heal you. Even with your Healing Amp using those spells while in the middle of combat on Epic Elite it is likely that you are taking enough damage that it is a net loss in hit points if you stop DPSing to heal. Even then I can cook myself out of mana in two or three fights. Once you start building to make good use of the heals you are giving up a lot of other DPS as you splash into the tank tree, stack Healing Amp, or try to get bonus mana.

Let me put this another way: if using UMD with Heal scrolls isn't enough healing for you then the Paladin spells certainly aren't going to do it.

Sev~

[bbqzor]

10 dice worth of sneak attack damage --(made up for by kotc light damage, which doesnt quit vs undead/eles/oozes etc)
Improved Evasion, Slippery Mind --(paladin saves tend to cover this)
16% Bonus run speed (Paladin's need to dip into Sacred Defender for run speed) --(ok so 6% runspeed, meh)
+3 damage with staves --(made up by holy sword)
5% attack speed --(also kind of made up by zeal, ballparking)
5% double strike (made up for by Zeal) --(see above, zeal is 10%)
Knockdown immunity --(except it doesnt block any of the knockdowns that matter like dragons, etc)

Above, plus Paladin gets more base hp (d10 vs d6), so you gain 4+ hp/lvl (other enhancements/destinies pending, can be 50-100 hp difference which is worth a lot of relative AP). And self healing spells. Etc.

Look Im not saying its not close-ish, though obviously Rogue is behind. And to be honest, to really compare, you have to get into comparative total AP costs and stuff, so its tough to just make a list. Thats not really a fair way to line things up.

But you need to be realistic too. A lot of the TA (and assassin, and presumably mechanic once that goes up) stuff is marginalized by the realities of modern ddo. In Epic, you fight mobs that can kill you in 2 or 3 hits on a regular basis, and dodge isnt 100% so without PRR/Etc youre number will come up. With the smaller portion of epic content, there is a very high number of sneak immune mobs. Raiding, almost every raid is an issue... from the adrenaline effect in fire peaks (rogues tend to be the one-shot kind in there), to Deathwyrm (all undead/constructs all the time, except the handful of cultists), to Mark of Death (a rogue can clear the archers out okay I guess, but they are uphill against anything which actually moves the event foward... clearing trash the whole time is kind of lame as the only choice).

There is a reason people would rather do a few d6 less damage, but then not have to sweat every second about getting hit by something, or worry their main class ability might straight up not function. Yea, I know you can get sneaks off with fort bypass or shadowdancer blah blah. Ive got an EE rogue I get it. And I know this rather goes beyond the scope of the enhancement pass. But seriously, we need to know that you know. And sometimes when I see lists like that, as if everything is 1:1 even, I get disheartened. I like most of the enhancement changes, yes. But things like killer wholly fading instead of peeling 1 at a time, or Momentum Defense only working when being hit... those are red flags.

A TA cant sustain getting hit 10 times for it to ramp up, generally speaking. It ought to go up on hit or miss. So like if youre under attack, and surviving, you build up momentum to keep surviving. That would be Momentum Defense. How is it momentum defense when you only get better at dodging after youve been hit a half dozen times and are likely going to die. You mentioned using heal scrolls, like thats a good substitute for self healing...Im supposed to back out, heal scroll up, and charge back in to get hit again within 12 seconds to keep building this? Not so appealing. Its basically a bonus of 1 or 2 or 3% dodge to stop the killshot from landing on you if youve already been hit once or twice. Thats... pretty tiny. And doesnt sound like T5 worthy to me.

Anyhow, hopefully momentum defense, killer, and other similar "all or nothing" buffs which you seem to assume will be up often/always, but which are very hard to maintain given the short windows and conditions for triggering, can be adjusted to be more readily playable. Rogue ought to have more draws relative to anything else (like paladin) instead of a somewhat similar list of features that kind of doesnt seem to have a real edge. Like look at that list above, you could go rogue, it might have some things it does a bit better, but why. Paladin (in this case) is really close, but can self heal, has more margin for error, and is less stringent on the demands the human playing them has to meet. Assassin tree is a good example of where the additional demand (sneaking) offers some tangible benefits (assassinate, measure the foe). TA has additional demands (requires staff and only staff, has to tumble, paradox of best near lots of guys but low defense)... the extra bonus for meeting those demands isnt quite there yet.

Anyhow enough ramblings. Hopefully helpful. The changes are good, but overall, I dont see this as the tree people will gravitate to in a relative power sense. People will do it for fun, but not because its "good". I hope it can get a little more action still. Id like to see the "tumble" stuff get the "measure" treatment, so you tumble to gain ac/ref, or dodge, or more atk etc.. but it persists after you tumble for awhile. So you can tumble in and fight, treating tumble like an action boost opener. That will make the class play different in a purposeful way. 2 cents, etc. Cheers.

[EllisDee37]

+3 damage with staves is way outclassed by holy sword

All staff build have +1 crit range + multiplier regardless of paladin levels.

That leaves +3 damage to compete with holy sword's +1 enhancement bonus. +3 damage wins.

[Mryal]

Improved evasion is useless anyway since a pally can use charisma mod to saves and evade everything anyway
Running speed is a non advantage since can be easily covered with gears and sacred defense (and haste pots)
+3 damage with staves is way outclassed by holy sword
attack speed can be covered by gear and haste pots

that leaves sneak damage (useless when soloing unless your improved deception item procs like 100% of the time wich is impossible)
Knockdown immunity.

Seems fair?

Running speed is stackable and as severlin posted earlier in the thread it is more speed than defender stance.
Attack speed is also stackable.
+3 damage is better than the +1 enhancement given by holy sword.
Severlin also did not mention the added 3 SA from including Improved Sneak Attack epic feat.
Knockdown immunity is a L-O-T better than people think.

Theres a whole lot of other things that arent beign put in question here, severlin is pulling the attack speed from capstone, wich means he is also not mentioning the other advantages the capstone has and that 18th cores have that you wont get by going any assorted lvls of paladin up to 15 paladin.This also means you will be using the +int divine might version from harper, and thus ending up with a completly different build.

The only point that i can wholeheartedly agree (misspelling there im sure) is the self healing, but that is due to how scroll useage still work as pre motu and like i pointed before shouldnt use concentration at all.in fact why do we even have concentration checks on ddo these days? Not to mention the speed for using scrolls should be at least doubled.

[bbqzor]

As for Paladin heals, they are fine in heroic content but honestly they fall behind later on. Once your Lay on Hands run out (which is very limited unless you are going outside the KotC tree) then you are relying on a small pool of level 3 and 4 spells to heal you. Even with your Healing Amp using those spells while in the middle of combat on Epic Elite it is likely that you are taking enough damage that it is a net loss in hit points if you stop DPSing to heal. Even then I can cook myself out of mana in two or three fights. Once you start building to make good use of the heals you are giving up a lot of other DPS as you splash into the tank tree, stack Healing Amp, or try to get bonus mana.

Let me put this another way: if using UMD with Heal scrolls isn't enough healing for you then the Paladin spells certainly aren't going to do it.

1) Quickened paladin heals cannot be interrupted by epic mobs hitting for 300+ or whatever they hit for.
2) There is no quickened heal scrolls, it can and WILL be interrupted easily.
3) Heal scrolling takes time to swap in and out, paladin heals are on-demand.
4) If your paladin heals cannot cut EE, or you are running out of mana, you may need a different paladin build.

Not trying to be snarky, but seriously. Its very, very hard to run oom on a paladin if you use something like ConOp or Torc or whatever. And its easy to slot a devotion crystal into a weapon and get a ton of healing power on top of your amp. You very much can self heal in EE for a long time, LoH not needed. Using Scroll in Epic Hard even can get to be impossible due to the inability to reach concentration scores large enough to prevent interrupt.

Maybe you need to add a "scroll pro" enhancement so rogues get uninterruptable heal scrolls. Otherwise this seriously is not even remotely close. This is one of those things thats very different on paper than where the rubber hits the road. Not even close.

[Mryal]

Very. The builds seem very comparable.

If you can't make good use from 10 bonus sneak attack dice (especially once Shiv gives a free Bluff check) then yes, you aren't going to value Rogue levels. That's fine with us. That's why there are multiple classes and alternate playstyles.

As for Paladin heals, they are fine in heroic content but honestly they fall behind later on. Once your Lay on Hands run out (which is very limited unless you are going outside the KotC tree) then you are relying on a small pool of level 3 and 4 spells to heal you. Even with your Healing Amp using those spells while in the middle of combat on Epic Elite it is likely that you are taking enough damage that it is a net loss in hit points if you stop DPSing to heal. Even then I can cook myself out of mana in two or three fights. Once you start building to make good use of the heals you are giving up a lot of other DPS as you splash into the tank tree, stack Healing Amp, or try to get bonus mana.

Let me put this another way: if using UMD with Heal scrolls isn't enough healing for you then the Paladin spells certainly aren't going to do it.

Sev~

If you use the spells you may end up out of sp very quickly yes.But if you use cocoon wich is what you will use on BOTH rogue and paladin, then the paladin can heal all day, while rogues with 0 base sp will end up healing considerably less.Scroll healing is hardly viable in the middle of a fight on EE content, it takes way too long, and any mob that touches you will make you fail the concentration check.
Reinforcing that i stil agree with all youre other points :P

[Mryal]

Anyhow enough ramblings. Hopefully helpful. The changes are good, but overall, I dont see this as the tree people will gravitate to in a relative power sense. People will do it for fun, but not because its "good". I hope it can get a little more action still. Id like to see the "tumble" stuff get the "measure" treatment, so you tumble to gain ac/ref, or dodge, or more atk etc.. but it persists after you tumble for awhile. So you can tumble in and fight, treating tumble like an action boost opener. That will make the class play different in a purposeful way. 2 cents, etc. Cheers.

Thats the problem thought, why does all new changes need to have 'people gravitate to because its better', thats just added power creep.Its a viable option, it alredy is on live, after changes it will be even more.

[Munkenmo]

~ Fast Movement now adds 1% per Rogue level. It stacks with everything. Since it scales based on Rogue levels, we don't think this allows for a character who can obtain speeds that they get get now, except a Monk 18/Rogue 2 will be 2% faster and we don't that option is problematic enough to implement a complicated anti-req or stacking system.

If players can see some build we missed that can actually achieve speeds greater that what is currently possible drop us a line because that is not our intent.

Sev~

15monk/4paladin/1rogue.

25% 15monk
10% 4 paladin Sacred Defender Swift Defense (Fighter/ Stalwart Defender offers same boost)
1% 1 rogue.

36% movement speed would be the new fastest build in the game (excluding hasteboost)

[ToastyFred]

Far better off just dumping the paladin all together, for 6 Monk

19-20X1 from mountain stance

Need Master of Rocks for this so you need 12 levels of Monk.

[BigErkyKid]

Very. The builds seem very comparable.

If you can't make good use from 10 bonus sneak attack dice (especially once Shiv gives a free Bluff check) then yes, you aren't going to value Rogue levels. That's fine with us. That's why there are multiple classes and alternate play styles.

10 sneak attack dice vs 5 light damage dice. So we are talking about 5 sneak attack dice as presumably the additional DPS a rogue could bring. This is not considering the free cleaves and smites a paladin gets. What does this have to measure against?

The easiest on is the survivability of the paladin. I think that you are not getting it right.

As for Paladin heals, they are fine in heroic content but honestly they fall behind later on. Once your Lay on Hands run out (which is very limited unless you are going outside the KotC tree) then you are relying on a small pool of level 3 and 4 spells to heal you. Even with your Healing Amp using those spells while in the middle of combat on Epic Elite it is likely that you are taking enough damage that it is a net loss in hit points if you stop DPSing to heal. Even then I can cook myself out of mana in two or three fights. Once you start building to make good use of the heals you are giving up a lot of other DPS as you splash into the tank tree, stack Healing Amp, or try to get bonus mana.

Let me put this another way: if using UMD with Heal scrolls isn't enough healing for you then the Paladin spells certainly aren't going to do it.

Sev~

Here is where I think you are wrong. With the amount of healing amp of the paladin and a devotion augment slotted, quickened heals are hitting for a conservative +300HPs a pop. It is not comparable at all to the rogue that has to swap for scrolls. Just have a look at what people are doing with paladins in EEs in youtube. Getting healing AMP is not a problem since you placed it in the DPS tree of the paladin anyway. And paladins can get a respectable pool of SPs in epics.

The reasoning you are using is very different to my experience playing the game.

[Rys]

As for Paladin heals, they are fine in heroic content but honestly they fall behind later on. Once your Lay on Hands run out (which is very limited unless you are going outside the KotC tree) then you are relying on a small pool of level 3 and 4 spells to heal you. Even with your Healing Amp using those spells while in the middle of combat on Epic Elite it is likely that you are taking enough damage that it is a net loss in hit points if you stop DPSing to heal. Even then I can cook myself out of mana in two or three fights. Once you start building to make good use of the heals you are giving up a lot of other DPS as you splash into the tank tree, stack Healing Amp, or try to get bonus mana.

lol

[BigErkyKid]

All staff build have +1 crit range + multiplier regardless of paladin levels.

That leaves +3 damage to compete with holy sword's +1 enhancement bonus. +3 damage wins.

No it does not. The paladin one is a spell that costs 0 AP, whereas the rogue locks a lot of AP into a tree. You can get your +3 damage easy from other places if that's what you choose to do with your free AP.

[IronClan]

Improved evasion is useless anyway since a pally can use charisma mod to saves and evade everything anyway
Running speed is a non advantage since can be easily covered with gears and sacred defense (and haste pots)
+3 damage with staves is way outclassed by holy sword
attack speed can be covered by gear and haste pots

that leaves sneak damage (useless when soloing unless your improved deception item procs like 100% of the time wich is impossible)
Knockdown immunity.

Seems fair?

Running speed available from pots and gear is identical between the two, so I don't see how they can't be used to make up the difference.

Improved evasion is awesome when you roll a 1 or a 2 in harder content, better still it allows one to neglect ones saves a little more than other builds and use that opportunity cost for other stuff. In any case there's more than one Rogue special feat to choose from.

+3 Damage is two more than Holy Sword can possibly offer. Staff specialization Rogue T5 gives the exact same bonus as Holy Sword does minus the +1 enhancement bonus. So in other words the Rogue in his example is doing more base damage than a Paladin staff build before we get to sneak attack damage. And perhaps more importantly before we get to what Monk adds on top of that.

[barecm]

Very. The builds seem very comparable.

If you can't make good use from 10 bonus sneak attack dice (especially once Shiv gives a free Bluff check) then yes, you aren't going to value Rogue levels. That's fine with us. That's why there are multiple classes and alternate playstyles.

As for Paladin heals, they are fine in heroic content but honestly they fall behind later on. Once your Lay on Hands run out (which is very limited unless you are going outside the KotC tree) then you are relying on a small pool of level 3 and 4 spells to heal you. Even with your Healing Amp using those spells while in the middle of combat on Epic Elite it is likely that you are taking enough damage that it is a net loss in hit points if you stop DPSing to heal. Even then I can cook myself out of mana in two or three fights. Once you start building to make good use of the heals you are giving up a lot of other DPS as you splash into the tank tree, stack Healing Amp, or try to get bonus mana.

Let me put this another way: if using UMD with Heal scrolls isn't enough healing for you then the Paladin spells certainly aren't going to do it.

Sev~

Let's be real here. If you are a non cleric/FvS you are using an epic destiny to provide heals, not spells.... at least during combat. You can scroll heal to remove stat damage between fights etc... but on EE if your are scroll healing yourself, you are doing something wrong already. Not that it shouldn't be ok, it is just that you will take more damage than you heal for before the animation finishes and then only be healed a small amount compared to cocoon. It is all about the heal skill now... and healing amp. Everyone gets spell points in epic levels now too and you can slot a power augment to give you more than enough to cocoon heal yourself.

[BigErkyKid]

Far better off just dumping the paladin all together, for 6 Monk

19-20X1 from mountain stance
+6 damage line from Henshin
Added dodge and max dodge from Ninja Spy
Sneak Dice in Ninja spy.
25% incorporeal without needing to be in SD.

The Paladin Staff build is not terrible, but it is clunky and is bucking too many non-synergies and losing too many easy ones that you mentioned and I added to. But whatever to each their own.

Sorry, I think you are off assuming a monk / rogue is better than a paladin / rogue. Like not even close.

[IronClan]

Need Master of Rocks for this so you need 12 levels of Monk.

Nope. 1 but you'll want 6 in any case.

[IronClan]

Sorry, I think you are off assuming a monk / rogue is better than a paladin / rogue. Like not even close.

I think I just showed you and you're preferring your belief (and your entrenched stance on the forum) to the facts listed in front of you.

But that's okay, I wasn't expecting you to change your mind.