Rogue - Thief-Acrobat Changes

[Blackheartox]

I wonder if devs will surprise us with ability to get metafeats on scrolls in upcoming mechanic tree..
Would fix all issues rogue has with selfheals

[General_Gronker]

-I've always seen all those "when tumble/after tumble" features a bit dificult to use in combat.

Honestly, those are a poor attempt to add some relevancy to a skill from the mothergame that should not have even been included in DDO. The primary function of the Tumble skill is to move through threatened area while avoiding Attacks of Opportunity. Without AoO in the game, Tumble is pretty useless outside of falling damage mitigation.

Instead of basing TA abilities on the condition of having tumbled, I'd much rather them look into seeing what it would take to encode Attacks of Opportunity/Zones of Control into the game, making the skill useful and relevant.

[Iriale]

I wonder if devs will surprise us with ability to get metafeats on scrolls in upcoming mechanic tree..
Would fix all issues rogue has with selfheals

Well, the Quick Draw feat slightly improves the speed of equip scrolls and wands (perhaps this feat could be added to Wand and Scroll Mastery, but working only with this items, not with weapons), but I think it would be better to change the scrolls so that they can be used without to equip. Several clickies to equip and use the scroll still make too slowly healing in combat. Or alternatively the healing by this source needs be improved.

Although I think the main difficulty will be to address the delay in the calculation of the UMD check. In heroics the calculation is fast. In epics, the delay is very noticeable. This is an old problem that still has not been solved. Maybe it can not be fixed.

If they fail to make possible the scrolls, perhaps devs can add an enhancement that mimics healing by objects, but whatever it is, has to be fast. Or will not work.

And of course ... this does not work if is in the tier 2 of a tree, as the case Wand and Scroll Mastery in the mechanic tree. It's something needed for all rogues, therefore should not be necessary to invest much in a particular tree... or all rogue trees should give this. Ah, if we had general class trees ... but we do not.

[Caprice]

I like the Tactile Trapsmith idea but I don't think that's something we've seen before (alternate attribute bonus to skills) so it might be too far to reach.

To help with pain of T-A builds not being able to reach proper DC targets, especially the Dexterity based builds, maybe we could have something like Cormyrean Knight Training or the Know the Angles? "Staff Tactics: While wielding a staff you receive a bonus to the DCs of your Tactical Feats equal to half of your Dexterity modifier." I get the impression that changing tactical feat coding to use different attributes as the base modifier for standard abilities is difficult, but since those other enhancements are already in place it appears that adding a bonus based on a second attribute is not as difficult. CKT requires a sword so making the T-A one require a staff seems reasonable too, and would avoid power creep on certain other prestiges. It were set up as an Insight bonus it would not stack with KtA. It might even make sense to roll it into Acrobatic Staff Training.

In my mind Wand & Scroll Mastery is already a meta feat for scrolls, specifically Empower. Rank 3 W&SM is +75% effectiveness, which matches Empower's bonus (+75 spellpower) if you have no base spellpower. Additional enhancements that mimic Quicken or Maximize would be nice, but I suspect that the former would be challenging. I also think that since the Mechanic tree currently combines crossbow and alchemy themes, plus a little trapping, it would not be hard to justify some sort of self-healing at a higher tier or core. Things like those might make it worth investing in beyond tier 2. But we'll see what we actually get once the preview is posted.

I respectfully disagree that taking something from tier 2 of another tree is too deep to be reasonable. If it is a good ability I am pretty sure that you can find 8 AP to spare for it, especially on a pure build that only has 3 prestige trees to spend points on (plus possibly Harper, but IMO that one should be optional and never absolutely required).

[Iriale]

Ah, other thing… I love Spring attack because is highly thematic that the character suffers no penalty to his attack roll when meleeing and moving. An acrobat should have a high mobility!! But with the recent changes to the THF chain of feats, spring attack is a subpar option and a rogue doesn't have many feats for fit THF (3 feats!), spring attack chain (3 feats!), improved critical, power attack, cleave and great cleave… spring attack (or at least the part of melee and movement) would be a wonderful addition to high level cores, too (Kick up, maybe?)

[Iriale]

I like the Tactile Trapsmith idea but I don't think that's something we've seen before (alternate attribute bonus to skills) so it might be too far to reach.

Why not? I do not think it is difficult to code. Why alternate abilities in combat but no in utility? Lastly the game is too heavy focused in combat. It's hour to improve the utility part of the builds too. Rogues are not only dps. They are too skilled men! In fact, they should be the master of skills. A little help with this is appropriate.

[Iriale]

I respectfully disagree that taking something from tier 2 of another tree is too deep to be reasonable. If it is a good ability I am pretty sure that you can find 8 AP to spare for it, especially on a pure build that only has 3 prestige trees to spend points on (plus possibly Harper, but IMO that one should be optional and never absolutely required).

Currently most of the acrobat thieves are multiclass. Devs need to improve a lot the options of the tree for that pure builds become really attractive. Until this happens, tier 2 is too high. Of course, while the slowly use of scrolls is not solved, no matter in which tier Wand and Scroll Mastery is found: actually it has poor utility, since has no relevance.

[Dreppo]

Why not? I do not think it is difficult to code. Why alternate abilities in combat but no in utility? Lastly the game is too heavy focused in combat. It's hour to improve the utility part of the builds too. Rogues are not only dps. They are too skilled men! In fact, they should be the master of skills. A little help with this is appropriate.

I like the Tactile Trapsmith idea too, but it should be a feat like it is in PnP, not a T-A enhancement. That way any rogue (or even artificer) could benefit from it. I suppose it would be ok if there were *also* an enhancement that granted the feat (like the Tempest core grants deflect arrows, etc.). But to do it that way and make it into this enhancement pass would mean creating the feat, which adds extra dev time, and I'd prefer they use all the dev time they have to get this enhancement pass right.

As an aside, reading the Tactile Trapsmith feat description, it occurs to me that in DDO you can search and spot while blind, which makes no sense!

I would definitely love to see more feats in general (and skills, and spells, and base weapon types...).

[Bzzzt]

We looked into this, but during playtest players just saw this as a necessity to Tumble every X seconds to keep up offensive or defensive benefits. Many found it annoying in practice.

Sev~

As a possibility, why not just allow the character a hit against anything it tumbles through (as a T4 or 5 enhancement). I feel bad tumbling because I know I should be attacking things (and tumbling usually doesn't aid in survival that much anyways, even when spec'd for it). Giving damage on pass through has been done before (Draconic Wings) and would be an interesting option. As an alternative, a trip attempt when tumbling through would be more tactically interesting and provide another layer of survival potential on-top of the normal tumble defensive boosts (and not just MORE NUMBERS) and still possibly be attractive to non-tumble builds.

[Iriale]

I like the Tactile Trapsmith idea too, but it should be a feat like it is in PnP, not a T-A enhancement. That way any rogue (or even artificer) could benefit from it. I suppose it would be ok if there were *also* an enhancement that granted the feat (like the Tempest core grants deflect arrows, etc.). But to do it that way and make it into this enhancement pass would mean creating the feat, which adds extra dev time, and I'd prefer they use all the dev time they have to get this enhancement pass right.

As an aside, reading the Tactile Trapsmith feat description, it occurs to me that in DDO you can search and spot while blind, which makes no sense!

I would definitely love to see more feats in general (and skills, and spells, and base weapon types...).

Realistically, rogues do not have enough feats to fit another extra feat. Pure builds can not afford the fee of an extra almost mandatory feat. Add tactile trapsmith as feat only encourage even more multiclass builds. As I say, I don't want to harm the multiclass builds, but I think devs should make attractive also the pure builds. Currently the pure TA builds are unattractive; I don’t think is good adding more feat stress to pure builds. And if we obtain alternate abilities to combat as enhancement, why not alternate abilities to utility? I repeat, rogues are *the* skilled men of D&D. They are not a heavy combat focused class as fighter or barbarian. Its ok that devs buff his combat features, but they shouldn't forget that the rogues are the master of skills. I am not opposed to create a feat too (for use to other classes or builds), but i think that an enhancement is finer for rogues.

If dont like as a tier 5 option perhaps would be a core option. Or a lower tier option.

[mna]

(Tactile Trapsmith)

If dont like as a tier 5 option perhaps would be a core option.

I'd say a level 12 or 18 core in Acrobat might be about right for that.

Capstone is a bit expensive in terms of point prerequisites in my opinion (assuming the "40 points in tree" stands), and I wouldn't discourage multiclasses quite that far. (For one, I'd leave the possiblity of qualifying for a metamagic on a dragonmarked halfling, say, 19/1 or 18/1/1...)

I'd also prefer for that kind of thing to be possible for someone with Knife Spec.

Maybe even... an expensive T4 one that has the level 12 core as a prerequisite?

[btolson]

Momentum Defense: Each time you are struck with an attack you gain +1 to your Dodge and Maximum Dodge for 12 seconds. This stacks up to ten times. (Each hit refreshes all stacks, stacks fall off all at once.)
Sev~

Overall I think this is a fairly useless ability. Only granting the buff after getting hit is -- for a low-hp, low-prr character -- a very sub-optimal trade. It also does nothing to help cope with the main threat to light armor characters - spiky damage.

I think this should be redone as a Defensive Stance (exclusive with all other defensive stances, e.g., Stalwart). Rather than offering +dodge which only slightly reduces the rate of incoming damage rather than the magnitude of its spikes, I would change the bonus to a % reduction.

Momentum Defense
You nimbly roll with the blows to lessen their impact upon you. While this stance is active, you reduce incoming melee damage by a percentage equal to half of your dexterity modifier (max reduction of 15%).


Part of the charm of this version of the ability is that it is exclusive with Stalwart Stance (and also quite competitive with it), meaning rogues will no longer feel forced to MC in order to have worthwhile defenses.

[EllisDee37]

I think this should be redone as a Defensive Stance (exclusive with all other defensive stances, e.g., Stalwart). Rather than offering +dodge which only slightly reduces the rate of incoming damage rather than the magnitude of its spikes, I would change the bonus to a % reduction.

Momentum Defense
You nimbly roll with the blows to lessen their impact upon you. While this stance is active, you reduce incoming melee damage by a percentage equal to half of your dexterity modifier (max reduction of 15%).

Interesting idea.

Would it work with simpler implementation, like say the stance gives you a PRR/MRR bonus equal to your dexterity score? If that's too much, then make it equal to dexterity modifier.

[Iriale]

(Tactile Trapsmith)


I'd say a level 12 or 18 core in Acrobat might be about right for that.

Capstone is a bit expensive in terms of point prerequisites in my opinion (assuming the "40 points in tree" stands), and I wouldn't discourage multiclasses quite that far. (For one, I'd leave the possiblity of qualifying for a metamagic on a dragonmarked halfling, say, 19/1 or 18/1/1...)

I'd also prefer for that kind of thing to be possible for someone with Knife Spec.

Maybe even... an expensive T4 one that has the level 12 core as a prerequisite?

i dont mind if core or tier 5 or lower tier (not core) option. It's no a game breaking option and we have alternate abilites to combat very early in the trees. This not replace int as the best option for trapping. More int is more skill points (-- better than dex for number of skills, and heavy multiclass builds are stressed in skills points anyways). But this gives a needed help to dex-based rogues. Mechanics and assasins are int based, so most do not need a tactile trapsmith option: TA tree is the most suitable for this option, but i dont think that is bad that other builds (or multiclass builds) can choose this option of this tree. As core, I would add it as level 6 or 12, 18 is a little late imho.

Devs will say where is best placed this feature. I just give an idea of a feature that would be very welcome for a lot of TAs, an idea that is not game breaking or overpowered and add something that is not related with combat to a class that is primarily a master of skills. TAs are not only acrobats, they are thieves too...

[Caprice]

Why not? I do not think it is difficult to code. Why alternate abilities in combat but no in utility? Lastly the game is too heavy focused in combat. It's hour to improve the utility part of the builds too. Rogues are not only dps. They are too skilled men! In fact, they should be the master of skills. A little help with this is appropriate.

I would hope that it would be easy but since it has not been done before I wonder if it is harder than we expect. Similarly I wouldn't think it would be that hard to use alternate attribute modifiers for tactical DCs either but my impression is that the developers have strongly resisted those suggestions too.

[Iriale]

I would hope that it would be easy but since it has not been done before I wonder if it is harder than we expect. Similarly I wouldn't think it would be that hard to use alternate attribute modifiers for tactical DCs either but my impression is that the developers have strongly resisted those suggestions too.

Well, I hope Severlin can tell us if it is possible or not. In any case, I think it would be a good thing to add some improvements to the skills, not just combat.

Certainly rogues need a big improvement on defense, a small improvement in dps and a review on tactics, but I do not forget that utility is a very important part of the base class, regardless of his specialization in combat.

[Rugrin]

I dont see any issue with Tumbling Skills, Everyone is worried about Time vs DPS. So far i loved the proposed changes. I thought Cartwheel was lack luster, 2STR/2DEX for 12 Secs? Eh. So far everything looks good, I hope there is no changes coming to Followthrough Core, If you learn when to tumble if provides a huge DPS Increase. Benafits from Double Strike and Glancing Blows. I do think however they could increase the duration a bit more to 20 Sec's to apease people who dont like to tumble every 12 sec's.

As a fellow Pure Theif Acro, I can say, I never ever use Staff Lunge, It's just god awful. The only reason to take it is just to get Vault. I cant speak for others, but even if it was 10W i would still not use the skill >_< The animation is just horrible. I think Vault should not have a Prereq othen then having # of Skill Points in the tree.

[Caprice]

Momentum Defense
You nimbly roll with the blows to lessen their impact upon you. While this stance is active, you reduce incoming melee damage by a percentage equal to half of your dexterity modifier (max reduction of 15%).

How about a percentage equal to your Rogue levels, capped by your armor's MDB? That's a decent bonus for a pure Rogue over the splashes (even the 13/6/1s like mine) and ensures that Heavy Armor Staff Paladins wouldn't take it instead of the Sacred Defender stance. The straight mitigation could be better than 25 PRR/MRR at higher levels. Restricting it to physical damage is a good choice, since it does not buff the (already adequate) Evasion defense against magic.

[Ayseifn]

Realistically, rogues do not have enough feats to fit another extra feat. Pure builds can not afford the fee of an extra almost mandatory feat. Add tactile trapsmith as feat only encourage even more multiclass builds. As I say, I don't want to harm the multiclass builds, but I think devs should make attractive also the pure builds. Currently the pure TA builds are unattractive; I don’t think is good adding more feat stress to pure builds. And if we obtain alternate abilities to combat as enhancement, why not alternate abilities to utility? I repeat, rogues are *the* skilled men of D&D. They are not a heavy combat focused class as fighter or barbarian. Its ok that devs buff his combat features, but they shouldn't forget that the rogues are the master of skills. I am not opposed to create a feat too (for use to other classes or builds), but i think that an enhancement is finer for rogues.

If dont like as a tier 5 option perhaps would be a core option. Or a lower tier option.

Assassins take Insightful Reflexes just fine, if they get a bit more reflex saves they might be able to skip it entirely though. In any case Turbine could just make them Rogue Bonus feats instead of trying to squeeze them into the trees or as general feats, the bonus feats should be anything they qualify for anyway.

[Iriale]

Assassins take Insightful Reflexes just fine, if they get a bit more reflex saves they might be able to skip it entirely though. In any case Turbine could just make them Rogue Bonus feats instead of trying to squeeze them into the trees or as general feats, the bonus feats should be anything they qualify for anyway.

assasins dont need cleave and great cleave... TAs are very tight in feats. Very very tight (one of several reasons that explains why are more abundant multiclass TAs than pure TAs)