Rogue - Thief-Acrobat Changes

[Severlin]

This is too bad, as I think it's viable idea, especially for a CC trip and not for an instakill.

Perhaps it can use Rogue level (opposed to 1/2 Rogue level), which would discourage splashing. Better yet, make it character level so that it scales better into Epic levels. Also, give it highest ability modifier, for greater build flexibility.

I imagine the Sweeping Strikes DC will likely use full rogue levels, Dexterity and add trip bonuses if we compared it like other DCs. The problem with Sweeping Strikes is, I believe, that it is compared to Balance and it should be using a Reflex saving throw or be totally modified to be compared against a straight Strength check like PnP. Balance should be affecting the chance to get up, not the initial saving throw. We haven't finished the review for the trip abilities so I can't answer questions yet. We are working as fast as we can!

Sev~

[burningwind]

I imagine the Sweeping Strikes DC will likely use full rogue levels, Dexterity and add trip bonuses. The problem with Sweeping Strikes is, I believe, that it is compared to Balance and it should be using a Reflex saving throw. Balance should be affecting the chance to get up, not the initial saving throw. We haven't finished the review for the trip abilities so I can't answer questions yet. We are working as fast as we can!

Sev~

use class level means usefulness end before epic. and that is the case now~~ that is why people want to use skill instead of class level. while you could do stuff like tumble score + half rogue level + dex mod vs enemy str/dex score, you don't have to use balance score.

p.s. also sweeping strike does not make enemy helpless.. which likely to be a bug, not sure if anyone mentioned it yet. also like to see more attack speed boost on t5 and capstone. acrobat after all is all about attack speed, it use to be the fastest attack speed build in ddo, though not anymore with the introduction of swf, what could be done is make staff count as swf style.. so player can choose between swf and thf. imo thf doesn't fit in the acrobat theme~~

edit: it would be nice if you could update all the tactical feat into using some sort of skill. for now most of them are useless. well other then ones that use strength, strength is the only score that can be boost up sky high. not sure if its wai

[Severlin]

We are probably done with Thief-Acrobat design until we see how it plays on Lamannia. The only two things we will be watching at this point is comments on Spinning Staff Wall since we just changed that, and feedback on trip DCs.

Sev~

[Severlin]

use class level means usefulness end before epic. and that is the case now~~ that is why people want to use skill instead of class level. while you could do stuff like tumble score + half rogue level + dex mod vs enemy str/dex score, you don't have to use balance score.

p.s. also sweeping strike does not make enemy helpless.. which likely to be a bug, not sure if anyone mentioned it yet. also like to see more attack speed boost on t5 and capstone. acrobat after all is all about attack speed, it use to be the fastest attack speed build in ddo, though not anymore with the introduction of swf, what could be done is make staff count as swf style.. so player can choose between swf and thf. imo thf doesn't fit in the acrobat theme~~

edit: it would be nice if you could update all the tactical feat into using some sort of skill. for now most of them are useless. well other then ones that use strength, strength is the only score that can be boost up sky high. not sure if its wai

Our thought is epic scaling for the Trip DC should be done with gear bonuses to Trip and extra Dexterity. If we decide on comparing the DC to a straight Strength roll like PnP the formula would have to be totally redesigned anyway.

Sev~

[Caprice]

why do I feel this is too much? it sounds to me like you are practically negating any incoming damage for those 20 seconds. does it stack with Uncanny Dodge? if you don't mind the constant clicking, you could use both for those "oh s***" moments or just alternate between the two.

Robes: +50 PRR from 0 PRR is 33.3% mitigation increase from 0%.
Light armor: +50 PRR from a ballpark 47 PRR* goes from 32% mitigation to 49.2% mitigation.

I'd call that significant but not overpowered. Uncanny Dodge is a dodge bonus, not PRR, so it ought to "stack". Both together will be really good mitigation. However the 3 minute CD on Uncanny Dodge means you are not able to use it consistently, which may be enough balance.

* 47 PRR = 15 Light base + 12 Light Proficiency ( = 2 + (0.5 * 19 BAB @ 28)) + 30 Sheltering.

[Myrddinman]

I imagine the Sweeping Strikes DC will likely use full rogue levels, Dexterity and add trip bonuses. The problem with Sweeping Strikes is, I believe, that it is compared to Balance and it should be using a Reflex saving throw. Balance should be affecting the chance to get up, not the initial saving throw. We haven't finished the review for the trip abilities so I can't answer questions yet. We are working as fast as we can!

Sev~

I can live with this, especially as it makes pure Rogue more attractive. Has there been any investigation into changing Trip and Improved Trip to use Dexterity as a modifier as well? It would seem better to have all use the same, no? Or at least make it whichever is higher?

Is there any way (and not just for this ability) to make a DC something like: class level + epic levels?
The problem with using only class levels, is the scaling into Epic. Conversely, using character level encourages shallow splashes (see Stunning Fist) and doesn't reward pure class builds.

Nevertheless, thank you again for the discussion and communication! I am loving the back and forth

[Myrddinman]

I know that someone brought up No Mercy earlier in the thread, as being a little out of place in the tree. This being said, is there any way to add a helpless state to Staff Lunge?

[Failedlegend]

I hope you payed attention to game mechanic thread and it was brought up here as well.
A acrobat rogue that is moving and attacking does not get the benefit of acrobatics alatricity at all.
So actually acrobats are a find position turret style of play if you want to maximize dps

Which is obviously a bug because otherwise the tree is misnamed. Actually I'd say several abilities in the tree should rely on you moving (not stacking on X seconds just apply when moving and are removed when your not, possibly a 1 second duration to reduce glitchyness)

~ On the topic of Sneak Attack and the top content having undead and constructs; this doesn't prevent people from putting value into Holy Sword and other critical boosting abilities, so using this as an argument that Sneak Attack isn't valuable is less compelling to us.

I really hope Mechanic gives us some way to deal with constructs...preferably with Bane damage not the weird clickies we have right now.

Full BAB is a class distinction and we are unlikely to change the base BAB for rogues.

Sev~

Well to be fair boosting BAB to char level isn't exactly a rare ability even in heroic (see below) but honestly I prefer the hit faster and smarter style of Acrobat as opposed to the harder and well harder of other classes.

Except for: (cite ddowiki)

• Bladesworn Transformation
• Divine Power spell
• Divine Power toggle: Warpriest enhancements T5 ability
• Madstone Rage
• Past Life: Student of the Sword clicky
• Tenser's Transformation spell
• Tenser's Transformation toggle: Eldritch Knight enhancements T5 ability
• Victory Song toggle: Warchanter enhancements level 18 core ability
• Just Cause: Divine Crusader first innate ability

Three are class enhancements to classes that don't have full BAB that replicate spells available to the class. That's usually the biggest benefit of them (espcially Divine power that you would have +6 Str on most characters anyway).

Rogues could scroll those spells but the times on the scrolls are annoyingly low. Alternatively give the mech tree scroll/wand a duration boost as well as damage (ie. 75% longer spells on Tensers gives me 2.5min which would be pretty sweet but not game breaking). That said I wouldn't want it in Mech as it would be points spent just to get this but.....I would consider giving up 2SA dice I get from racial tree to get long tensers.

agreed, rogues shouldn't get full bab. that's core DnD.

The first half of your statement is a good start that's the opinion, but the second half is where your reason for said opinion SHOULD be but all you say is "It's Core" thats not a reason. Just because that's how something works in PnP or In the core book does not automatically make it better.

Perhaps limit Mechanic to Great Crossbows for full BAB (leaving Repeaters the providence of Artificers).

I'm torn on Mechs being Great X-Bow masters, on one hand it would be a GREAT way to differentiate Arties and Mechs...on the other hand G XBows fire SO slow (as do Bows but Xbows are even slower) and unlike Bows they don't even get manyshot (or AA effects, which imo should affect ALL ranged weapons including thrown) so Mech will need to be a very strong prestige for it to be worth it and Arty should lose G X-Bow Prof.

In short awesome idea if the tree focuses on it enough.

Removed Momentum Defense and added Spinning Staff Wall.

Sev~

Ooooo Double edged sword Sev.

The passive is nice and all but seriously a Tier 5 ACTION BOOST...ugghhh! Can we maybe change it something like this:

Spinning Staff Wall

"Whilst Moving and attacking gain 10~20 PRR" (The ability would like have like a 2~ second duration just to reduce glitch potential)
Passive: While wearing light or cloth armor gain 5% Dodge, 5% Maximum Dodge, and 5 Maximum Dexterity Bonus for Light Armor.

Also I've been told that Staff Alacrity does not work whilst moving, please tell me that's a bug

[burningwind]

Our thought is epic scaling for the Trip DC should be done with gear bonuses to Trip and extra Dexterity. If we decide on comparing the DC to a straight Strength roll like PnP the formula would have to be totally redesigned anyway.

Sev~

the one terrible thing about trip dc is the fact that Vertigo (or any other prime mod for tactical) mostly can only be found on weapon, and currently none of the named weapons(ram's might, souleater, epic souleater, oak staff, dreamspitter, or the citw staff) have them. combat mastery alone does not make them epic viable, sure there is +11 dex item now. but compare with +5 heroic item it only give 3 extra dc.

if you plan to make this epic viable, perhaps 1) when visiting cannith crafting make sure Vertigo(and other prime tactical mod) can be craft onto other slot(also for random loot). 2) maybe add epic level to the formula. say full rogue level + epic level + trip modifier + dex mod. that would make it truly epic viable. otherwise it might be doable for tiny few amount of player, but for the majority it is next to useless in epic.

[Qhualor]

Robes: +50 PRR from 0 PRR is 33.3% mitigation increase from 0%.
Light armor: +50 PRR from a ballpark 47 PRR* goes from 32% mitigation to 49.2% mitigation.

I'd call that significant but not overpowered. Uncanny Dodge is a dodge bonus, not PRR, so it ought to "stack". Both together will be really good mitigation. However the 3 minute CD on Uncanny Dodge means you are not able to use it consistently, which may be enough balance.

* 47 PRR = 15 Light base + 12 Light Proficiency ( = 2 + (0.5 * 19 BAB @ 28)) + 30 Sheltering.

Improved Uncanny Dodge 120 second cooldown and available to level 8 rogue

This feat grants you a 1% passive bonus to Dodge at levels 4, 6, 8, 12, 16, and 20.

Also, you can activate this ability to gain a temporary 50% dodge bonus and a +6 reflex save bonus.

Spinning Staff Wall: (2 AP) Active: Activate to gain 50 Physical Resistance Rating for 20 seconds. Cooldown: 90 seconds. Passive: While wearing light or cloth armor gain 5% Dodge, 5% Maximum Dodge, and 5 Maximum Dexterity Bonus for Light Armor.

im terrible with DDO math, but if you alternate between the two, that is 50 seconds of waiting for a cooldown. in 40 seconds while you alternate both mobs should already have been dead long ago. this appears to make rogues almost untouchable if it stacks. that's 2 dodge defenses plus high PRR that will negate a lot of damage depending how much PRR you already have invested too. add on other defenses like evasion/improved evasion, blur, displacement, invisibility, etc and it looks like rogues have one of the better defenses. i bet a min/max player could make good use of these defenses without having to go pure.

[oradafu]

p.s. also sweeping strike does not make enemy helpless.. which likely to be a bug, not sure if anyone mentioned it yet.

Not a bug. Trip has never made enemies helpless. This is why I keep calling for a Stun in this tree. The thing in the tree that has anything to do with stunning is No Mercy, so players have the build for Stunning (which means Dex builds can never get it) or rely strictly on other players or stun weapons to go off.

[maddong]

While using a skill total as a DC was an interesting experiment for Swashbuckler's Coup de Grace, I don't think we will be doing that again. The scale at which typical DCs and skills advance is to far apart to use it as a common mechanic.

Sev~

Maybe it shouldn't stay that way?

Is staff alacrity while moving going to get fixed?

[Myrddinman]

the one terrible thing about trip dc is the fact that Vertigo (or any other prime mod for tactical) mostly can only be found on weapon, and currently none of the named weapons(ram's might, souleater, epic souleater, oak staff, dreamspitter, or the citw staff) have them. combat mastery alone does not make them epic viable, sure there is +11 dex item now. but compare with +5 heroic item it only give 3 extra dc.

^ Truth

If we have Stunning and Deception outside of weapons, Vertigo would be nice as well. I would love for TA to be just be a tripping CC machine...sort of fits thematically.

[RD2play]

I imagine the Sweeping Strikes DC will likely use full rogue levels, Dexterity and add trip bonuses if we compared it like other DCs. The problem with Sweeping Strikes is, I believe, that it is compared to Balance and it should be using a Reflex saving throw or be totally modified to be compared against a straight Strength check like PnP. Balance should be affecting the chance to get up, not the initial saving throw. We haven't finished the review for the trip abilities so I can't answer questions yet. We are working as fast as we can!

Sev~

I think all trip attacks should be str/dex, meaning you apply the highest. this way you don't pinhole staff-builds into dex and allow for others lets say barbarians to be able to make use of this attack also.

[Myrddinman]

Not a bug. Trip has never made enemies helpless. This is why I keep calling for a Stun in this tree. The thing in the tree that has anything to do with stunning is No Mercy, so players have the build for Stunning (which means Dex builds can never get it) or rely strictly on other players or stun weapons to go off.

^ Which is why I think Staff Lunge should render helpless

[burningwind]

^ Which is why I think Staff Lunge should render helpless

agree, the prime dps source of rogue is SA. and hopefully this will give 3 second of SA to those that are not immune to SA. since acrobat are dex base we do not have the dc for assassin trick.(if that work at all )

[Myrddinman]

^ Which is why I think Staff Lunge should render helpless

The more I think about this, the more I like it. However, I have no idea what to how to calculate the DC...

[Myrddinman]

I'm torn on Mechs being Great X-Bow masters, on one hand it would be a GREAT way to differentiate Arties and Mechs...on the other hand G XBows fire SO slow (as do Bows but Xbows are even slower) and unlike Bows they don't even get manyshot (or AA effects, which imo should affect ALL ranged weapons including thrown) so Mech will need to be a very strong prestige for it to be worth it and Arty should lose G X-Bow Prof.

In short awesome idea if the tree focuses on it enough.

Preach!

I'll save any further responses for the upcoming Mechanic discussion thread

[Rhysem]

Removed Momentum Defense and added Spinning Staff Wall.

Sev~

Good job: I want that.

Still a shame about the Dex-only DC.

[oradafu]

Removed Momentum Defense and added Spinning Staff Wall.

Sev~

I didn't applaud earlier in the thread, but for this I will applaud now.