Rogue - Thief-Acrobat Changes

[Blackheartox]

Very. The builds seem very comparable.

If you can't make good use from 10 bonus sneak attack dice (especially once Shiv gives a free Bluff check) then yes, you aren't going to value Rogue levels. That's fine with us. That's why there are multiple classes and alternate playstyles.

As for Paladin heals, they are fine in heroic content but honestly they fall behind later on. Once your Lay on Hands run out (which is very limited unless you are going outside the KotC tree) then you are relying on a small pool of level 3 and 4 spells to heal you. Even with your Healing Amp using those spells while in the middle of combat on Epic Elite it is likely that you are taking enough damage that it is a net loss in hit points if you stop DPSing to heal. Even then I can cook myself out of mana in two or three fights. Once you start building to make good use of the heals you are giving up a lot of other DPS as you splash into the tank tree, stack Healing Amp, or try to get bonus mana.

Let me put this another way: if using UMD with Heal scrolls isn't enough healing for you then the Paladin spells certainly aren't going to do it.

Sev~

Sev sev sev..
MY dear sev..
I mean, i really like your feedback, but this is just so full of wrong that i dont know where to start.
Most players will tell you exactly what is wrong.
Also keep in mind, i found a harmor prr focused staff palie rogue build to be more effective then a rogue focused build.
For example a 15 palie 4 rogue 1 fighter would be a great build.
Also a 14 palei 5 ranger 1 rogue as well.
Basically i just dont value sneak damage since i am forced to play in shadowdancer to make undead and golems (most of current content) vulnerable to sneak and i dont trust dodge as much as i trust prr.
A good build for example focused on dps with dodge in mind as palie would be a 15 palie 4 rogue 1 monk, has way more superior dps and survival.
You should keep in mind that a quickend cure can easily hit for 400+ now, simply healing amp plifes gave fleshies really good selfheal.
Im for example getting 300-400 hp cocoon crit ticks as pure sorc without hamp enchas taken.
You can selfheal in ee as melle with scrolls, but it requires to use those scrolls out of combat and possibly during combat you are forced to kite around a bit.
That is what a rogue would need to do, not really a fun way to play considering that barb bard and palie can endleslly stay in combat.

And why should i play in shadowdancer to be able to use proper sneak when half of the destiny doesnt work correctly?
I mean, really its blitz or crusader even now, and when i meet undead elementals constructs that whole sneak doesnt exist most of the time.

Is it possible to allow scrolls meta feats?
I mean like special rogue only feats that you take as bonus rogue feat only that give you quicken on scrolls for example.
That alone would fix all the issues a rogue has with selfhealing imo

[ToastyFred]

Nope. 1 but you'll want 6 in any case.

Huh??

Can you please re-phrase this answer?

[Failedlegend]

Basically i just dont value sneak damage

This is a you issue, not a Rogue issue, SA damage is Rogue's thing if you don't like it your not going to like ROgue


Re: Tactile Trapsmith: The ONLY modifiers to trapsmith should be in the mechanic prestige.

I do agree that it doesn't make any sense that Str-based Acrobats are better than Dex-based

Huh??

Can you please re-phrase this answer?

At Monk Level 1 you are granted the Adept Stance feats which allows you to take the further Stance feats as Normal Feats

[bbqzor]

Thats the problem thought, why does all new changes need to have 'people gravitate to because its better', thats just added power creep.Its a viable option, it alredy is on live, after changes it will be even more.

Everything should have something it does "better", thats what creates a mechanical reason to do it. It doesnt have to be overall better or something (thats runaway creep) but it does need to have something that its the best at, which is why you would do it relative to something else.

TA should be best at staffs, tumbling, dodge, and general mobility. Thats what its always gotten bonuses too, thats what they seem to be pushing now. Its not the best with staffs solely because of Henshin (why they decided henshin should be staffs all of a sudden is another issue) but to be "best at staffs" you have to multiclass, which is a negative (it devalues the capstone and other related investments). Being best at tumbling doesnt provide much of a boost, which is why I cited that as something that Id like to see improved. Being best at general mobility is manifesting as runspeed and vault, which is acceptable surely but doesnt actually let you "beat" any quests (you cant kill mobs, do traps, etc with those alone, so while good as is they dont create a need to roll the class up). Dodge is nice... but as mentioned dodge will fail, and Momentum Defense is kind of backwards, since its virtually impossible to actually use it for more than a few percent, which isnt really T5 worthy.

Make sense? Its not that it isnt viable, its that it has no "draw". There isnt anything its doing that you cant do another way, which is likely partially or wholly better. With a few improvements, they could address that. Make tumbling a part of the gameplay with "action boost" style effects like measure the foe, so that it actually plays differently via tumbling. Make momentum defense work easier and maintain its own momentum, so theres an actual reason for TA to get in the middle and stay there, without an undue penalty for when they need to back out and scroll heal. Dont be afraid to make staff dmg a little heavier, its a 2hd after all, so youre already giving up tons of sneak dice by missed off-hand swings. Maybe add in +1d6 sneak die while holding a staff a few places to make that up. Etc.

Its not about blind power creep, or a need for this to be THE best option. But it should have something it IS best at. All the PREs should. If the pass doesnt create the opportunity and reason to actually roll up in any of the trees, I wouldnt call it a good pass that did its job. Bard is a great example, all three bards are viable, have their own style, all the styles have things they do really well, etc. Barbarian is close, only in that all of them are playable for some reason, but I dont think that came out nearly so equally. Rogue isnt quite there yet (mechanic tree aside)... theres still stuff in both Assassin and TA which isnt quite right. But they got time yet, so heres hoping.

[Grailhawk]

Rogue	Barbarian	Winner
Staff or Knife Spec	+2 19-20 Crit Mult	Wash
Staff or Knife Spec	+1 19-20 Crit Mult (Death Frenzy)	Rogue
12% Glancing Effects	10% Glancing Damage 6% Glancing Effects	Barbarian
----------------	Supereme Cleave	Barbarian
5% DS Cartwheel Charge	+17 STR Rage	Wash
+9 DMG Staff Training	+12 DMG Furious Rage + Power Attack Enh	Barbarian
8d6 Sneak Attack	6d6 Vicious + 2d6 Pain Touch	Wash
+15% Attack Speed + 16% DS Quick Strike	20 Melee Power Passive	Rogue
Sly Flourish	Ear Shmash	Wash
Staff Lunge	Slaughter	Barbarian
6d6 Sneak Attack	400 Vorpal Damage	Wash
3d6 Sneak Attack	Storms Eye (+6 Dmg Avg)	Wash

With out the on hit/kill HP regen Rogues are going to be behind Barbarians especially in solo play in terms of kill speed. (Not saying they need these things added to the class just pointing out a difference) Also Barbarians are a good deal ahead in AOE damage which will give them better kill counts as well. But looking at this grid it looks close enough to be ok.

Note 20 Rogue will have 17-21d6 Sneak attack (10 Class + 4 Assassin Tree +3 Improved Sneak Attack =17 +4 Assassin Capstone = 21)

[IronClan]

Here is where I think you are wrong. With the amount of healing amp of the paladin and a devotion augment slotted, quickened heals are hitting for a conservative +300HPs a pop. It is not comparable at all to the rogue that has to swap for scrolls. Just have a look at what people are doing with paladins in EEs in youtube. Getting healing AMP is not a problem since you placed it in the DPS tree of the paladin anyway. And paladins can get a respectable pool of SPs in epics.

The reasoning you are using is very different to my experience playing the game.

My Monk/rogue staff build heals for 500 without Paladin levels, and like everyone else I can twist more healing.

Putting Paladin levels into everything you come up with is like a convenience size snack bag... sure it's easy and quick, but it's not the optimal value.

[BigErkyKid]

My Monk/rogue staff build heals for 500 without Paladin levels, and like everyone else I can twist more healing.

Putting Paladin levels into everything you come up with is like a convenience size snack bag... sure it's easy and quick, but it's not the optimal value.

I find it very hard to argue what you say. You probably heal with cocoon, whereas the paladin has burst healing. I think that you and me can talk reasonably about many things, but this is not one of those. I refer you to the posts of other people which I feel you will take more into consideration than mine.

Rogues lack survivability. Whatever advantage they might have in DPS (comparing staff builds here, I am not sure staff builds measure up against other builds from barbarian and paladin) pales very quickly when you measure combat time adjusted DPS.

[Blackheartox]

This is a you issue, not a Rogue issue, SA damage is Rogue's thing if you don't like it your not going to like ROgue


Re: Tactile Trapsmith: The ONLY modifiers to trapsmith should be in the mechanic prestige.

I do agree that it doesn't make any sense that Str-based Acrobats are better than Dex-based

I value sneak on a ass rogue, but i found it to not be practical when you go staff rogue.
Also recent content has more or less invalidated sneak unless you play in a utterly bad and broken destiny with a absolutely useless set of abilities for staff builds that most of the time dont work correcty.
Best ability in shadowdancer is most prolly meld, and anyone who used it knows how bad it is since you really ..
I mean a pure acrobat in blitz has really potent dps when i look at all those buffs, but simple issues arise from that.
First selfhealing, 2nd sneak immune stuff.
Fix to 2nd issue is shadowdancer which is horrible.
Fix to first issue is a multiclass.
If you go for multiclass you will end up as a nonrogue staff user.
I just dont see it in the current tree, a reason to go pure staff user.
You just gimp yourself so much for current ee and champs.
I mean i personally think, that there is no need to hold your punch sev, you gave such a huge boost to barbs and palies and bards.
Let it all go, give us proposals that we will say wow at.

[catscan420]

Huh??

Can you please re-phrase this answer?

1 level of monk will net you grandmaster stances with the feat investments. costs you 3 feats
6 level of monk gets you most low hanging fruit, and the 2 extra monk feats make the 2 stance feats a wash.

[catscan420]

Why not add a decent amount of PRR (not MRR, just pure PRR) into the capstones? 45 PRR wouldn't be too much to ask for... it's not like someone is going to splash for more if it's in the capstone. Epics are where the problems are, this helps out with out front loading anything.

[Qhualor]

Very. The builds seem very comparable.

If you can't make good use from 10 bonus sneak attack dice (especially once Shiv gives a free Bluff check) then yes, you aren't going to value Rogue levels. That's fine with us. That's why there are multiple classes and alternate playstyles.

As for Paladin heals, they are fine in heroic content but honestly they fall behind later on. Once your Lay on Hands run out (which is very limited unless you are going outside the KotC tree) then you are relying on a small pool of level 3 and 4 spells to heal you. Even with your Healing Amp using those spells while in the middle of combat on Epic Elite it is likely that you are taking enough damage that it is a net loss in hit points if you stop DPSing to heal. Even then I can cook myself out of mana in two or three fights. Once you start building to make good use of the heals you are giving up a lot of other DPS as you splash into the tank tree, stack Healing Amp, or try to get bonus mana.

Let me put this another way: if using UMD with Heal scrolls isn't enough healing for you then the Paladin spells certainly aren't going to do it.

Sev~

exactly but I think the problem is that min/max players are looking at how they can get higher dps without sneak attack or they compare things 1 for 1 instead of the overall picture.

I don't know how Paladin heals fall behind in epics unless their dps is subpar, they aren't taking the necessary feats and slotting gear or they are always in the middle of mob fights instead of being more cautious/tactical. LoHs I have always treated as emergency/"oh s***" moments. I mean typically you can do just fine from shrine to shrine, but I see a lot of paladins using Consecrated Ground. you just need a good sp pool which isn't hard to do.

heal scrolls work fine in heroics. its epics that is the problem. a mob sneezes on you and you fail your concentration check. this is an issue that needs to be addressed, seriously.

[Thrudh]

So maybe I am doing it wrong, but to me attack speed and DBs are equivalent. The reason being that they both result in more attacks per second, but they don't benefit cleave attacks. A 5% chance of double striking is equivalent to attacking 5% faster.

So I see (paladin left, rogue right)

Zeal (10% DBs) VS 5% DBs and 5% attack speed: so its a wash.
Evasion + saves from paladin VS improved evasion and slipper mind: unclear, since you could splash paladin to get the saves, in any case it favors the rogue. However since armor up a lot of people will say evasion is not a great deal.
Paladin cleaves, smites and light damage vs rogue SA: Half the sneak attack is covered by the light damage, which does not require sneak attack conditions.

And then you have all the healing brought by the paladin vs the general problem of rogues (cocoon and scrolls for fleshies not measuring against paladin heals). If you go paladin, probably you'll grab KOTC healing amp to make it even more obvious that it is more survivable. Finally, paladin frees up a lot of enhancement points by giving the crit profile for free, allowing you to take sneak attack and other bonus stuff from other trees if that's what you want.

To sum it up, I don't see a big gain in DPS even going "very rogue" and I see a very substantial decrease in survivability through much lessened heals. I don't even know if it is not possible to get more DPS on the paladin through a good combination of trees, to be honest, since the rogue has little to offer besides the SA.

It doesn't seem like a fair trade off to me. Maybe others think otherwise?

I think otherwise... There's more to a character than DPS... A 16/4 rogue/paladin STAFF build is very similar to a 15/5 paladin/rogue build... Both have great saves, both can go either evasion or heavy armor, although I'd go improved evasion over armor if I was the 16/4 rogue/paladin...

The Acrobat tree has a lot of good enhancements if you're a STAFF build (that's what we're comparing here), so it's not a terrible sacrifice to spend APs in that tree to get Staff Spec.

Traps, Locks, Stealth, speed, Improved Uncanny Dodge, sneak attack damage vs the better heals of a paladin and light damage...

They are very different builds... but I don't see the paladin one as a slam-dunk... I know you do, because all you care about is DPS. But a majority Rogue staff build does plenty good DPS, even in end-game... It's certainly no gimp.

Self-healing is probably the biggest issue, but there's ways around that.

[ToastyFred]

1 level of monk will net you grandmaster stances with the feat investments. costs you 3 feats
6 level of monk gets you most low hanging fruit, and the 2 extra monk feats make the 2 stance feats a wash.

Ahhhh...thank you. I forgot you could get the higher stances with feat investments. Duh.

[Blackheartox]

Also most important issues that i have currently overall with rogues and arties in ddo has been introduced with prr/mrr.
I just dont see a reason for disarming traps outside of the xp boost.
Can you pretty please look at a way to make traps, at least in epic elite, deadly?
Like hardcore deadly that only the ability to time them or find spots how to evade /actual player skill/ and disarming them or evading them(the feat made for that) will result in sucess of passing through them?
Only on epic elite, since it really is dumb that i can facetank any trap in game as a pure fleshie sorc.
I dont even want to start what happend to me when im standing in traps as a moderately or heavy prr focused build..
ITs just dumb imo.
If you know how it was always in pen, we dont have a trapper?
Nope.
Send the barb!
Fellas fellas help, im at -6.
(I really want scenarios like that where traps actually hurt, is it to much to ask?)

[Impaqt]

You mean what do you give up in 15 levels of rogue to make a Paladin based Thief Acrobat? You are giving up:

10 dice worth of sneak attack damage

which is negated by many things. not to mention paladin light damage makes up for much of it as well.

Improved Evasion, Slippery Mind

IE is rarely useful for a rogue, and with the horrible will saves rogues get, slippery mind often just fails again. Maybe modify Slipery mind to add a bonus on that second save attempt?

16% Bonus run speed (Paladin's need to dip into Sacred Defender for run speed)
+3 damage with staves
5% attack speed
5% double strike (made up for by Zeal)
Knockdown immunity

Since you are already getting your improved critical profile from Acrobat the large incentive to go 14 Paladin is largely based on Zeal and the Light Damage.

That looks like an even trade off to me. I think you could make an argument for going 16 Rogue and 4 Paladin honestly.

Sev~

I really do like the proposed changes, but I feel they are falling short in getting rogues up to speed still.

There is also the fact that heavy armor trumps evasion nowadays as well. dodge should be more prevalent for rogues. the fact that momentum defense only works if your getting your butt kicked seems pretty bad... if your getting hit that often, your probably gong to be dead.

[Thrudh]

No it does not. The paladin one is a spell that costs 0 AP, whereas the rogue locks a lot of AP into a tree. You can get your +3 damage easy from other places if that's what you choose to do with your free AP.

If you are a STAFF build, that tree has plenty of good stuff. You're not really wasting a bunch of AP going for Staff Spec, especially with the proposed changes.

[Qhualor]

Also most important issues that i have currently overall with rogues and arties in ddo has been introduced with prr/mrr.
I just dont see a reason for disarming traps outside of the xp boost.
Can you pretty please look at a way to make traps, at least in epic elite, deadly?
Like hardcore deadly that only the ability to time them or find spots how to evade /actual player skill/ and disarming them or evading them(the feat made for that) will result in sucess of passing through them?
Only on epic elite, since it really is dumb that i can facetank any trap in game as a pure fleshie sorc.
I dont even want to start what happend to me when im standing in traps as a moderately or heavy prr focused build..
ITs just dumb imo.
If you know how it was always in pen, we dont have a trapper?
Nope.
Send the barb!
Fellas fellas help, im at -6.
(I really want scenarios like that where traps actually hurt, is it to much to ask?)

yes, it is too much to ask. you are suggesting "forced grouping" and adding more challenge to the game. imagine the outcry from players actually dying from traps.

[Severlin]

Good discussion.

One thing I did want to bring up is that even though I think some people are underestimating these buffs, particularly the gratuitous amount of Maximum Dodge you can get, we are discussing whether or not we want to keep Momentum Defense as is. I think some people have brought some good points about it being a little bit out of flavor for a rogue to have something build up when being hit.

Sev~

[Blackheartox]

yes, it is too much to ask. you are suggesting "forced grouping" and adding more challenge to the game. imagine the outcry from players actually dying from traps.

Oh my god, traps actually killing characters who arent build for that?
What herresy im asking for!

[catscan420]

Oh my god, traps actually killing characters who arent build for that?
What herresy im asking for!

By forcing people to go back to evasion based builds. Then you're back at square one where traps do not matter.