Rogue - Thief-Acrobat Changes

[oradafu]

~ I know that Staff Lunge is hard to get used to. If you aren't hitting a directional key the animation just kind of nudges forward in an unsatisfying way. If you learn to use it, however, it can work fairly well. Anything animation related is a large time sink, and I don't know if we can devote that kind of time to one attack because it is a little clunky to use at first. We will play with it to see what we can do with it but I can't make promises.

"If you learn to use it, however, it can work fairly well." Screen Shot or it didn't happen.

The following problems that seems like everyone agrees on:
1) a single target attack
2) very clunky to actually hit mobs properly
3) interrupts an attack chain
4) actually drops the DPS of an acrobat
5) costs a minimum of 6 AP and maxis out at 18 AP
6) is unnecessarily required for Vault

It appears several things need to change.

The AP cost or untangling it from the chain need to happen, the same with Vault. It probably needs to be sped up. The hitbox for landing the blow needs to either expand or it should include multiple targets. If its staying a single target attack, it needs an extra effect on it like an auto-stun.

[Failedlegend]

Why not make it the exact same thing as Swashbuckler's Fast Movement enhancement? Fast Movement scales per bard level (at least in the tool tip, I think it's actually 5% per 4 levels or something) If they were 1% per level, then a multiclass Swashcrobat (wierding words is fun) could be just as fast for the additional AP cost...

Point being, Monk's, Barb's, and Bard's movement speed all scale based on class levels. A BardBarian can reach the full 20%, why can't a rogue/bard?

Possible to do, and rewards characters who invest in Rogue levels. I will bring it up with the team.

Sev~

I actually really like the idea of movement speed bonuses being class level based instead of anti-reqs of each other it would allow for some nice multi-classing but prevent ridiculous stacking. That said please remove the "does not stack with Monk or Barbarian" bit.

[Ayseifn]

Possible to do, and rewards characters who invest in Rogue levels. I will bring it up with the team.

Sev~

It also favours Assassins over Acrobats as they get more out of staying pure.

[Myrddinman]

Possible to do, and rewards characters who invest in Rogue levels. I will bring it up with the team.

Sev~

I have been following this from the start and just wanted to chime in and say that I am really digging Sev's interaction in this, and other threads. Thanks for the discussion.

[Rhysem]

~ I know that Staff Lunge is hard to get used to. If you aren't hitting a directional key the animation just kind of nudges forward in an unsatisfying way. If you learn to use it, however, it can work fairly well. Anything animation related is a large time sink, and I don't know if we can devote that kind of time to one attack because it is a little clunky to use at first. We will play with it to see what we can do with it but I can't make promises.

More than that it suffers from useless prereqs. I have a 10 rogue/6 monk/1 druid "horcrobat" build -- quick strike is fine, but sweeping is just a waste (Dex 18... Str 36 on the build at 17), meaning lunge costs 12 pts to max out, because sweeping isn't any use with a Str focus.

If 'looking at dcs' means Str or Dex whatever is higher, then that'd be a big help.

TA should make me want to pull points out of the monk trees, and as proposed it doesn't. 14 TA, 34 Henshin (T5 every light casts a shadow), 11 Ninja, 1 Shintao is my current split and I don't expect a huge change. +3/+3 at T5 is nice, but relative to every light casts a shadow? Seems weak -- especially when I can pick that up cheap in my racial tree -- it is T5, it needs to be good.

[Severlin]

Reduced the cost of Staff Lunge and Sweeping Strike to 1/1/1. After reading player feedback we evaluated the costs; the cooldown and effects of these don't warrant an investment of 6 AP each.

Sev~

[EllisDee37]

Reduced the cost of Staff Lunge and Sweeping Strike to 1/1/1. After reading player feedback we evaluated the costs; the cooldown and effects of these don't warrant an investment of 6 AP each.

Gah! You're killing me; my 15/5 pally/rogue was finally comfortable taking KotC to tier 5 instead of acrobat, but with Vault being much more viable based on those (useless to me) prereqs getting their costs slashed in half, I'll once again be faced with a painful choice.

*shakes fist*

[Thrudh]

Gah! You're killing me; my 15/5 pally/rogue was finally comfortable taking KotC to tier 5 instead of acrobat, but with Vault being much more viable based on those (useless to me) prereqs getting their costs slashed in half, I'll once again be faced with a painful choice.

*shakes fist*

Anytime there's a painful choice, the devs are doing it right....

[Vyrzain]

Anytime there's a painful choice, the devs are doing it right....

Hehe... /agree

[HatsuharuZ]

Concerning Vault: There is no need to change the ability itself, just leave it where it is and remove the necessity of taking prerequisites to get it.

[maddong]

Last time I tested it it did properly stack with everything. (Everything being stuff that gives a haste-style bonus.)

I didn't take video so I can't check to see when I did that testing. Guessing maybe last fall, so 4-6 months?

It works but only when not moving.

https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthrea...tanding-still)

[Ayseifn]

Anytime there's a painful choice, the devs are doing it right....

The changes have finally gotten me to rethink a mostly paladin compared to a mostly rogue acrobat so that's good, still not seeing any merit in going dex based yet though.

[Systern]

By my count, I should've reached +73% permanent speed on a bard/barbarian, assuming stacking works the way I thought it would.

It doesn't.

I mean, tihocan's old "revisited" 18 bard / 1 barbarian / 1 fighter Warchanter, +10 % barbarian splash, +18% 18 bard levels and Swashbuckler Fast Movement, +30% speed item, +15% Warchanter Expeditious Chant.

(And that's without casting Expeditious Retreat, Shadow Walk and Haste, or using the higher 20-sec Sprint Boost from Warchanter which tops out at +50% but doesn't stack with Expeditious Chant.)


And that's by accident, since that build plan predates the current enhancements and such by several years... theoretical maximum would be higher, such as going to 4 fighter levels for 10% while in stalwart stance, for permanent +80% speed. And I'm not sure what Grandmaster of Flowers's "Running With Wind" stacks with...?

Barb/Monk had their movement speed buff moved to level 3.
Bard's fast movement scales by class level.
Expeditious Retreat/Shadow Walk/Speed item/Striding item are all enhancement bonuses. The max is Haste at 32%.
Expeditious Chant and Sprint Boost are both Action Boosts.

[SealedInSong]

Reduced the cost of Staff Lunge and Sweeping Strike to 1/1/1. After reading player feedback we evaluated the costs; the cooldown and effects of these don't warrant an investment of 6 AP each.

Sev~

Three cheers for Severlin and his team, and listening to the players!

Also I like the 1% per rogue level concept a lot. Much better than splash-and-win setups.

[oradafu]

Three cheers for Severlin and his team, and listening to the players!

I'm glad the cost came down, but I'm not cheering because the listening to players about the cost of those two abilities and Haste Boost were complaints from the beginning with the Acrobat tree being too expensive. It's a long overdue change.

I'm also not seeing anything at Tier 5 worth cheering about yet. Vault still costs 2 AP and players are still forced to spend AP on Sweeping Strikes (which is only Dex based) and Staff Lunge (which Severin has admitted it difficult to land). The way that Momentum Defense is described makes it more of a Heroic ability, since its not worth the investment for difficult Epic Hard and Elite quests. Acrobatic Staff Training was (and apparently still is) the only reason to take Tier 5 in Acrobat, but still that's just one ability.

Other melee trees have instant kills, extremely high damage, CC or a combo of those three. It would seem reasonable that Acrobats should have something in Tier 5 that causes stunning (with a decent and working DC) or an Improved Deception effect. If you are hitting someone repeatedly with a stick, especially in the head, that person is either going to get stunned or unbalanced. I still think a Stun is missing in this tree, but more importantly I think a Sneak Attack type damage is missing. So maybe a toggle/passive ability for staves that has a 3% chance of causing an Improved Deception effect on damaged mobs.

[kauetomaz]

Anytime there's a painful choice, the devs are doing it right....

this post contains much wisdom, with that in mind lets talk about how much choices we have currently: wear a heavy armour or go home... hmmmm wut? :P
/thread derail
edit: typo

[Ikeas]

Hi all. I don't usually post on this kind of threads, but I'm a big fan of acrobat/monkrcobat builds and I ran many of them.

I'm seeing some nice changes (specially the AP cost reduction), but...

-I've always seen all those "when tumble/after tumble" features a bit dificult to use in combat. Diving into melee in a tumble gives a small bonus of very short duration, and refreshing those bonuses can be an actual lose of DPS (since the TA relies on speed attack standing). I would personally love to see them movement-related instead of tumble-related, even a stacking version of those enhancements.

-I'm OK with an increased run speed for TAs. I think it's better in the cores, but still good change.

-Does Trip Focus (or any Trip or Tactic DC increase) work on Sweepng Strikes? If not, this seems a bit out of place here. Yes, you can make a STR based TA, but it's somehow strange that one of the most attractive features of the PrE (Sweeping Strikes) is not having a buff from another enhancement in the same tree and with the same thematic (to knockdown mobs)...

-...and speaking of the devil: Sweeping Strikes needs a better DC, seriously. I think any DC clikie should be coded as 10 + 1/2 character level + stat modifier (or the best of two/three stat, STR or DEX in the case of the TA, since those are the stats you are expecting to be used with the PrE) + related tactic bonuses (trip and mastery should come here). If you want to avoid multiclass or make the "full 20" attarctive, change 1/2 character level for full class level. In one or another case, please make those skills worth in epic content. Rogues really need ways to control mobs that really work after lvl 20 (and poison, traps and Sweeping Strikes have a ridiculous low CD for this goal).

-Related to that, rogues (and thus TA) have no reallistic way to render helpless a foe without multiclassing. Maybe a STR based TA can reach a Stunnng Blow DC high enough to make it viable on EEs (65? 70?) but any other build can not. For a class based on burst Sneak Attack damage, low armor and low PRR, mob control and helplesness should be a thing. To have No Mercy it's strange too, for the same rason: no way to use it outside an specific rogue build, or waiting a caster to Hold someone, or a monk to Stunfist a mob. An enhancement to make a mob helpless, even on a tier 5, would be adding a lot to the survivability and damage of the class, specially if you take an eye on the melee DPS builds the last updates brought to the game. Again, with a decent DC to make it useful in epic content.

-Never used Lounge. Tried once, felt useless. Maybe I stil don't know how to use it properly.

Aside of those thoughts, the player feedback and Sev's implication in the thread was wonderful. I'm happy to be in this community.

ED. Sorry if my English is a bit weird

[mna]

Barb/Monk had their movement speed buff moved to level 3.

Um, when was that? Haven't played that character much recently.

The wiki still says that barbarians get the feat at level 1 and I can't seem to get in the game right now.

Bard's fast movement scales by class level.
Expeditious Retreat/Shadow Walk/Speed item/Striding item are all enhancement bonuses. The max is Haste at 32%.

... so the temporary maximum in enhancement bonus would be just +2% over permanent.

Expeditious Chant and Sprint Boost are both Action Boosts.

Yes, with Expeditious Chant maxing at 15% and Sprint Boost at 50%. Thus, with both maxed, 15% permanent and +35% temporary over that.

[Blackheartox]

It works but only when not moving.

https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthrea...tanding-still)

Interesting, ty very much for the effort you put into testing this.
I never actually thought that it didnt work while moving.
I guess beacause animation is off while moving.
Does the test include twitch fight?
Twitch usually speeds up melle combat, but how does it work with staffs?
My guess is that fastest staff combat is twitch combat and wild guessing that it works during that style aka the speed increase.

But i might be entirely wrong, if so, then maybe wel need a minor buff to staff alatricity in acrobat due to twitch combat overperforming atm.

[Iriale]

As always, I'm sorry if my spelling is not perfect. English is not my native language.

My thoughts...

All those "when tumble/after tumble" features are difficult to use in combat. Those features should be optional (no core) or improved so that they are much easier to use. IMHO, they are not only difficult to use, but a significant dps loss.

Vault is fine as is, but its prerequisites are excessive and unnecessary. Please, leave it in tier 5, but eliminate the prerequisites.

TA doesn't have realistic way to render helpless a foe or instan-kill. All other melees have something. Add something, pls (I think that helpless is more realistic than instant-kill, although worse in game) Stunning blow feat working with dex and int would be a good change.

Sweeping Strikes. Change 1/2 rogue levels to 1/2 character level (a lot of TA are multiclasses… encourage pure class, but don’t punish multiclass. Make feasible both, pure and multiclass, and let the players decide what they like most) Change dex mod to dex, str or int. TA are rogues, they may wish to build in int for better trapping (remember, trapping is a core feature of the rogue class). And many TA are based on str.

Staff lunge. I find it useless. If you could improve its usefulness ...

The dex-based builds are quite disappointing, although thematically dex is most thematic for the tree. The dex is less dps, but this is ok because it improves defense. But choose dex renders your tactical DCs useless (this needs to be improved) Builds based on dex (and str too) also find that trapping is difficult (low values on disable/search), and this should not be so: the TA are rogues, and trapping is a mainstay of the class. I think TAs based on str or dex need a bit of help in this regard. But since the dex-based builds are more thematic, I have a suggestion. In pnp there is a feat (tactile trapsmith, complete adventurer) that add the dex bonus rather than the Int bonus on all Search and Disable Device checks. Could be feasible to add this option to the tier 5 of TA tree? This would solve the problems of the acrobats thieves in this regard and is thematically appropriate.

TACTILE TRAPSMITH
You can rely on your rapid reflexes and nimble fingers instead of your intellect when searching a room or when disabling a trap.
Benefit: You add your Dexterity bonus (rather than your Intelligence bonus) on all Search and Disable Device checks.
In addition, you receive no penalty on these checks for darkness or blindness.
Source: complete adventurer

Healing. Well, rogues need something in this! Currently a significant percentage of TA are multiclass because: 1) The tree is lacking in defensive and tactical options and a bit in dps and 2) a healing up is required. All those druid splashes in TA ... are basically to take Empower healing (and a bit of healing amplification) and make the cocoon a feasible healing option. UMD is not a viable healing option currently: it is very slow. In epics, the damage you receive is BIG and you need healing *quickly*. If you want that healing scrolls evolve in a real healing option, it needs to be *much* faster. You have to eliminate the delay involved equipping the scroll and rolling the UMD check. Please, try to heal yourself in combat with scrolls in an epic character with epic destinies and enhancements. You will find that the delay is unacceptable in combat. Currently healing by scrolls is viable out of combat, but not in combat. If you do not succeed in eliminate this delay, the scrolls are not a healing option in combat, and you are condemning rogues to multiclass.

So, improve the alacrity with UMD options, or add new healing options to rogues (not specifically to TAs ... all rogues need healing) And if you leave the scrolls as the main source of healing, the rogue should get easy access to it (in all rogue trees!!! I have always said that distribute core class features in three different trees does not work, when access to upper features of a tree and the capstone requires so many points invested in a single tree)

Actually, one of the main problems of the TA is that it needs too many enhancement trees to be good at his job: need to invest in other trees to improve his healing, his trapping skills, his tactical DCs (know the angles, DC up, divine might, etc), his damage, his defense, his sneak attack ... well, all those features are distributed in a lot of different trees (and not all are rogue trees!). TA tree itself should provide almost entirely those options, or at least we should get all these options distributing in fewer trees (rogue trees! I want the multiclass feasible and not punished, but not required)

And one not important, silly request, but oh... if you succeed in making viable pure TAs (now this requires more changes) I will miss the falling animation of my rogue/monk. Would there be any way to retain that? It is a very appropriate animation for an acrobat... not only for monks. Numbers are not the only important thing in this game. The character animations help with the fun, too, and ddo has a lot of great animations.

Thanks for your good work and communication, devs.