Rogue - Thief-Acrobat Changes

[SealedInSong]

What I'm saying is I would like to have the option to not feel like Rogue levels are obligatory for Staff builds, with T/A already being clearly superior to Henshin mystic currently, these changes completely gimp Henshin as a choice, and make it a non-choice. Tweaking Henshin's almost identical abilities with some of these updates avoids this widening of the gap.

EXCEPT that I would say, please do not add Shadow Dodge or clone any effects from Acrobat that are not ALREADY in the tree. So, quick strike is fine to revamp and create identical effects or cost, but I personally feel a bit cheated when I see the duplicate Vanguard and Defender (which has slight differences) and Eldritch Knight trees.

I think Henshins are a great concept executed suboptimally. So, if they share anything, IronClan has a great point--revamp them both at the same time.

However, do not add anything to Henshin that isn't already there, and if you do, save that for when you're actually evaluating that tree for itself and not trying to make it a cross-class tree clone.

Good thoughts, IronClan!

[SealedInSong]

Void strike tho is horrible and pricey.
The only time i remember void strike being good is old epics where it could straight out kill anything, and wehn you could banish the training dummy and it would not appear again.
Worst thing i never get is why is monks qstrike on a longer cd then rogues?
And what makes rogue acrobats so special that only they get 15% att speed with staffs?
Arent shaolin monks the real masters of staffs ?

*If you can at the same time, make sure quick strike is equivalent in both trees.

In fact, if there is every an enhancement of the same name in two different trees, it almost always makes sense for it to be identical. No reason to create separate and unequal enhancements.

*Reduce APs of all elemental words, and UNLINK THEM! The tree is weak enough as is

***NOTE: I am NOT a proponent of giving Henshin the staff alacrity clone. I think it might be okay to give them a T5 that gives them 10% staff alacrity, but remember that monks already inherently have access to increased attack speed and doublestrike from wind stance.

Thus, I think there does need to be a distinction between pure acrobats and pure henshins, and I think it's fine for rogues to have access to a slightly higher alacrity via their enhancements.

Because, remember, a pure monk OR monk splash can achieve 15% enhancement bonus to attack speed (does not stack with haste) and 10% doublestrike with Grandmaster of Forms, whereas a pure rogue must take Blinding Speed but doesn't get the doublestrike.

A splashed rogue can get grandmaster of forms, and a splashed monk can get the staff alacrity. Seems like a balance to me. Again, however, I wouldn't be opposed to a 10% staff alacrity in Henshin, or maybe something more unique, such as -1 stacking saves (max 10) to all staff hits made with the Henshin, or anything that makes their flavor as characters unique rather than vanilla/identical.

[Blackheartox]

Well you're sacrificing DPS to use a TF staff, so not a great tradeoff (one of the only cases in the game where named weapons are better).

You know the Dev's see a post like this and they are inclined to think "as long as someone thinks elemental words are good".

Normal affixes like shocking burst (or Eternal Fire on Red Dragonscale) probably wont get any free DPS due to rounding (a max roll of 6 on a 1d6 would be 0.6 and probably rounded down judging from how DDO rounds everything else I've bothered checking) so you need the affix to be 2d6 or 3d4 AND roll a 10 or more before you even get 1 point of damage. This means you'll never get 1 damage from for instance Lighting the Candle.

In any case to get 3 damage per swing from this vulnerability you would need to roll 30 elemental damage or more, so you would need 10d6 worth of elemental affixes a number which tends to only come on vorpal effects like Shocking Blow, Thunderstruck, or 5% procs like Cloudburst or 2% Lightning Strike etc.. So what we're really talking about is very little free DPS, and it wasn't free it cost 2AP's, took a hotbar slot and put your bar on cooldown when you clicked it, meaning something else was not clicked.

On the other hand for those 2AP's you could instead get 2 MP from harper (naturally already have KtA's) that's a 2% increase in melee damage... so a 200 point base damage staff hit (a low roll) gets you 4 damage that can be multiplied by crits, so straight away we're losing DPS by using those AP's for elemental words with affixes, and that's without adding to a crowded hotbar, with much more impactful attacks available. And it's EVERY SINGLE HIT... I'm not going to do the math on how much 3 damage on a 35 damage Thunderstruck that happens 5% of the time is... It's already worse than 2MP even if Thunderstruck proc'ed 100% of the time...

I can't imagine a realistic non forum theory crafted scenario where I would hotbar Elemental Words on a melee. Defending it just because you envisioned a scenario (which is frustratingly common on the forums I admit, I've done it myself) is harmful to the game ultimately and can deceive the Dev's into thinking something painfully bad is not bad. If this was proven to round up (seriously doubt it) it might be more useful than I'm giving credit for. Maybe I'll test later.

You should try a fire spp based henshin and check the damage it can get.
Th staff is worth it alone for the vulner atacks and you can put fire on t2 so word has its usea.
As staffie you have free time to use word aa the debuff lasts long enougj aka you do not need to spam it.
Also in case you have a sorc in party it wont complain about the dps.
What is bad is only that it coata 2 ap and that you need to apend 8 ap to get void.
I had a silly idea to do a monk splah on a bf sorc to get the strike for ectra dps.
Would had been some weird build like 18 sorc 1 soul 1monk that would utilize dodge fire savant and fire spellpower.


But i never actually had time to play around with it.
I can name many other builds as well that can get a good benefirlt from words if yoi want

[SealedInSong]

At that point I don't feel that T-A really needs the speed anymore. It still would be nice, but not as significant.

I think it's wonderful that you can reevaluate your opinions, but I still don't think that Swashbucklers should be faster than acrobats.

Acrobats already had enhanced speed (because of their grace and athletic prowess) as a base characteristic when they were launched. It was taken away from them for no good reason at all. It merely seemed like an oversight.

Warchanters need the help they can get, and I think it's fine for them to chant encouragingly and speed up themselves and allies.

Swashbuckler? Their increased speed makes not much sense to me. Good to tie it to bard levels, but they are already a grab bag of some of the most powerful enhancements all in one tree. And swashbucklers are daring, flashing, and skilled, but nowhere near as athletic and powerful and graceful as the acrobat. So I don't know why they get (when pure) a movement speed that's TWICE as good as barbarians and 2/3s as good as a pure monk.

Acrobats should be AS speedy as barbarians and not quite as speedy as pure monks.

[maddong]

These look like good changes but it is hard to get the motivation to get my staff build (5 rogue splash) out of the garage when I could play my Kama bard or try out the swf Kama barb....

Coup > assassinate
Swashbuckler level 3 core > tier 5 acrobat

I used to be proud of my 90% (110 in crusader) sireth additional crit damage but it just doesn't hold water to a swf barb with bard 3 splash getting 160% (190 in crusader) Kama additional crit damage. That is a 70-80 percent of your base damage difference... Or about a 37% damage increase.

[LordTigerDawn]

Edited OP: Based on player feedback moved the speed in stealth to Assassin, added a speed boost to tier one.

Sev~

Any chance we could get the stealth speed boost bug fixed as well. Anytime you have to jump down or move over a bump that involves falling down on the other side the 50% speed boost disappears and you have to exit stealth and reenter it to get the speed boost again.

[IronClan]

EXCEPT that I would say, please do not add Shadow Dodge or clone any effects from Acrobat that are not ALREADY in the tree. So, quick strike is fine to revamp and create identical effects or cost, but I personally feel a bit cheated when I see the duplicate Vanguard and Defender (which has slight differences) and Eldritch Knight trees.

I think Henshins are a great concept executed suboptimally. So, if they share anything, IronClan has a great point--revamp them both at the same time.

However, do not add anything to Henshin that isn't already there, and if you do, save that for when you're actually evaluating that tree for itself and not trying to make it a cross-class tree clone.

Good thoughts, IronClan!

Except that they almost certainly are not going to buff anything having to do with Monk, this is not a Enhancement polish pass, it's a balance pass, and Monk based builds were the top of the heap when this started. I would be very surprised if they spent time improving anything having to do with monk, because despite popular assumption a CK (Centered Kensei) is still very near the top of the pile in terms of DPS+Survival (not going to debate with people I think this statement has been adequately proven in other threads, it's just not the newest most shiny, it's still very good and these changes will improve Centered Staff builds just as much as they improve Rogue).

Most min maxed Staff builds are dipping into BOTH Henshin and T/A, so increasing the cross pollination is not harming anything, in fact it gives two different flavors and ways to get the same things, which means you forego Rogue entirely or Monk Entirely and still have a viable staff build (Which you can currently choose to do). After this buff to T/A there's no Staff build that will have a meaningful alternative but to choose at least 4 Rogue (16 Paladin) or 5+ rogue. A Monk staff build will be rubbish without at least the updated T/A versions of abilities they share. if I am wrong and they actually will tweak Monk trees then sure wait until then.

[Uska]

Any chance there will be auto-disable traps thing?

I hope not

[IronClan]

But i never actually had time to play around with it.
I can name many other builds as well that can get a good benefirlt from words if yoi want

>.<

We can all theory craft "many other builds" that theoretically take advantage of some over priced underpowered enhancement line if we ignore the better options (like the fact that Sorc's already have a better 15% vulnerability debuff and stackers).

[SnowNut]

Edited OP: Based on player feedback moved the speed in stealth to Assassin, added a speed boost to tier one.

Sev~

My main has been a TA since I started DDO and up until a couple weeks ago I thought I was the only one playing a Pure Rogue TA on Thelanis. Before the new enhancements came out the TA was in second place behind monks in movement and attack speeds. Now, since the updated enhancements, I arrive at the fight last and my attack speeds feel like a level 1 toon next to the bards, monks/monkchers and barbarians, Clerics even arrive to the fight before my TA. So - many 'Thank You' for bringing back the needed speed boost that was lost during the enhancement update. Does this Stack with Haste spells, etc?

Is the quarterstaff attack speed boost from T1 Acrobatic even working? or does it not stack with Haste pots and Speed items? It doesn't show up in the Melee Attack speed in the character sheet when having a q-staff equipped and in combat my TA attacks are soo slow compared to the other classes now.

To me, an acrobat is a quick and nimble person not stealthy and calculated, so the stealth and speed boost above make sense. This is what separates the Acrobat from the Assassin. I like to Tumble into the middle of combat, hit a sweeping strike and trash a mob before they get back up. I use Tumble a *lot* as you get to attack 2 targets (Followthrough) for the next 6 seconds, a little publicized tactic that, for all practical purposes, doubles your DPS.

I've read through most everything in this thread and agree with most of it, a few of my thoughts below:

Vault - Just is not a T5 ability, period! It's a convenience thing, and a nice ability for jumping gaps, but adds no real value to combat. It should be 1 AP and moved lower in the tree in line with the monks abundant step and favored souls wings.

Shadow Dodge - I like having the +6 Dex, even at the cost of Fort which is easily overcome with exceptional fort items. Overall I like the proposed changes except fixing the bugged dex bonus.

I would like to suggest swapping Shadow Dodge and Vault, make Vault T4 with no pre-reqs and 1 AP, and make (T5) Shadow Dodge: (2/2/2 AP) No longer a toggle. It no longer reduces Fortification. Shadow Dodge now adds 1/2/3 to Maximum Dodge Bonus and Dodge Bonus for light armor, and adds 2/4/6 Dexterity and no pre-reqs.

This would make Vault more desirable and would allow better Dex for TA and less abuse of the Dex bonuses from cross enhancements. I'm sure this would draw a lot of hate, since it will no longer be useable cross class/enhancement, but that is part of what makes each build unique. Having every enhancement available to every build is killing the game.

Also, I'm not a complete fan of bundling in aggro reduction with damage increases, I often prefer to have the aggro and rely of Deception/Improved Deception for sneaks, this way I'm not chasing around behind a monkcher kiting the mobs around in circles. I would rather see the aggro reduction toggled in some way, shape or form.

It seems that some type of change needs to be made in how Staff Lunge is used as, even you admitted Sev, is difficult to master and is most likely underutilized. I tried it a few times and couldn't get the hang of it, so I avoid it. Adding the knockdown does sound like a logical add to it if is can be made more useable.

Oh, and the other big one, tactical DCs, as is are garbage for a Dex based rogue, so following other classes and allowing a rogues Dex (or Str) applicable to tactical DCs makes sense. Maybe add it as part of the Stick Fighter bonus to deter cross class abuse (would take 6AP in tree to get it).

Thanks for the work and I look forward to seeing the changes....

[HastyPudding]

Except that they almost certainly are not going to buff anything having to do with Monk, this is not a Enhancement polish pass, it's a balance pass, and Monk based builds were the top of the heap when this started. I would be very surprised if they spent time improving anything having to do with monk, because despite popular assumption a CK (Centered Kensei) is still very near the top of the pile in terms of DPS+Survival (not going to debate with people I think this statement has been adequately proven in other threads, it's just not the newest most shiny, it's still very good and these changes will improve Centered Staff builds just as much as they improve Rogue).

Most min maxed Staff builds are dipping into BOTH Henshin and T/A, so increasing the cross pollination is not harming anything, in fact it gives two different flavors and ways to get the same things, which means you forego Rogue entirely or Monk Entirely and still have a viable staff build (Which you can currently choose to do). After this buff to T/A there's no Staff build that will have a meaningful alternative but to choose at least 4 Rogue (16 Paladin) or 5+ rogue. A Monk staff build will be rubbish without at least the updated T/A versions of abilities they share. if I am wrong and they actually will tweak Monk trees then sure wait until then.

Slight derailment, but Henshin Mystic is vastly inferior to every other enhancement tree, including rogue mechanic. It looks good on paper, but it works horrifically in practice. It's nothing but a splash tree for acrobat and unarmed builds. If you're making a true henshin mystic build (emphasis on ki and ki attacks) they are complete rubbish and suffer from a plethora of problems.

I would rather they do a complete restructure of what Henshin Mystic is than turn it into an acrobat clone tree. Henshin needs as much -- if not more -- work than rogue mechanic itself.

Other than that, I think this tree is shaping out nicely. I like the large dodge bonuses, although I would like to see more work be done with the act of tumbling. It's such an under-appreciated art.

You should try a fire spp based henshin and check the damage it can get.
Th staff is worth it alone for the vulner atacks and you can put fire on t2 so word has its usea.
As staffie you have free time to use word aa the debuff lasts long enougj aka you do not need to spam it.
Also in case you have a sorc in party it wont complain about the dps.
What is bad is only that it coata 2 ap and that you need to apend 8 ap to get void.
I had a silly idea to do a monk splah on a bf sorc to get the strike for ectra dps.
Would had been some weird build like 18 sorc 1 soul 1monk that would utilize dodge fire savant and fire spellpower.


But i never actually had time to play around with it.
I can name many other builds as well that can get a good benefirlt from words if yoi want

No, no, and no. Henshin built as a caster-hybrid is horrific. I've tried two lives and it suffers from far too many performance issues, most notably DC problems and having to spread stats too thin, not to mention the tree is the most expensive in the game and you get very little for it. The tree needs some very serious work.

[EllisDee37]

Is the quarterstaff attack speed boost from T1 Acrobatic even working? or does it not stack with Haste pots and Speed items?

Last time I tested it it did properly stack with everything. (Everything being stuff that gives a haste-style bonus.)

I didn't take video so I can't check to see when I did that testing. Guessing maybe last fall, so 4-6 months?

[bbqzor]

Fast Movement: You now move 10% faster. This does not stack with Fast Movement from Barbarian or Monk.

It really ought to have anti-requisite Swashbuckler: Fast Movement. If it was going to stack with something, that something ought to be Monk for the Henshin/TA staff overlap (so like the rogue levels with this enhancement kind of make up for the lost monk levels, move speed wise).

If youre taking monk off the table, you really shouldnt leave swash there. You cant use a staff while swashing, so all its going to do is give Bard X/Rogue 2 builds using rog in place of the swash capstone 10% more move speed. Thats not something the game needs. If anything, this should support existing balance (henshin/TA synergy), not create additional imbalance (faster swash for no reason).

[oradafu]

It seems that some type of change needs to be made in how Staff Lunge is used as, even you admitted Sev, is difficult to master and is most likely underutilized. I tried it a few times and couldn't get the hang of it, so I avoid it. Adding the knockdown does sound like a logical add to it if is can be made more useable.

I'd rather not have yet another ability in Acrobat that contains Knockdown. Especially Staff Lunge, since its AP costs is way too high, its animation speed is way to0 slow reducing DPS damage and its accuracy to land is way too chancy. It's been so long since I've used the horrible ability that I don't even remember how slow the cooldown is, although I do remember that it used to share a cooldown with Vault which was the deathnail for the ability.

If an effect is to be added Staff Lunge, it should be an auto-stun. Prone mobs from knockdown don't get sneak damage like stunned mobs. Acrobats can gain extra damage via the tree for stunned mobs, but outside of the tactical boost in the tree, there's nothing that contributes to stunning mobs in the tree. Also since getting tactical numbers up on an Acrobat sucks, and near impossible for Dex based Acrobats, this would give Acrobats something independent to stun mobs without splashing or relying on a 3% chance on stunnning staves.

[Rakuda13]

I really dont care what you do with the class stats,I just care for more quarterstaffs in the game that are not for spell casters.

[SealedInSong]

Edited OP: Based on player feedback moved the speed in stealth to Assassin, added a speed boost to tier one.

Sev~

Sev, I'm very grateful the speed bonus was readded, but I think most of us mentioned having it be T3 or Core3+.

I am personally not a fan of any more frontloading of rogue abilities. There are too may builds out there that benefit from rogue2 WITHOUT them having easy access to a very powerful 10% speed boost.

Any chance we can get this added to Core6 "Tumbler"?

Consider other too-powerful frontloaded splashes that dilute the incentive to pure class: Monk2, Fighter2. Favored Soul2 (for Just Rewards)

[CrackedIce]

It really ought to have anti-requisite Swashbuckler: Fast Movement. If it was going to stack with something, that something ought to be Monk for the Henshin/TA staff overlap (so like the rogue levels with this enhancement kind of make up for the lost monk levels, move speed wise).

If youre taking monk off the table, you really shouldnt leave swash there. You cant use a staff while swashing, so all its going to do is give Bard X/Rogue 2 builds using rog in place of the swash capstone 10% more move speed. Thats not something the game needs. If anything, this should support existing balance (henshin/TA synergy), not create additional imbalance (faster swash for no reason).

I agree with this sentiment. I is really the swash speed bonuses you don't want to stack.

Taking one level of barbarian is a build decision vs something else and should stack.

[Caprice]

It really ought to have anti-requisite Swashbuckler: Fast Movement. If it was going to stack with something, that something ought to be Monk for the Henshin/TA staff overlap (so like the rogue levels with this enhancement kind of make up for the lost monk levels, move speed wise).

If youre taking monk off the table, you really shouldnt leave swash there. You cant use a staff while swashing, so all its going to do is give Bard X/Rogue 2 builds using rog in place of the swash capstone 10% more move speed. Thats not something the game needs. If anything, this should support existing balance (henshin/TA synergy), not create additional imbalance (faster swash for no reason).

^^ This. Don't make the Swashies any faster please.

[Blackheartox]

*If you can at the same time, make sure quick strike is equivalent in both trees.

In fact, if there is every an enhancement of the same name in two different trees, it almost always makes sense for it to be identical. No reason to create separate and unequal enhancements.

*Reduce APs of all elemental words, and UNLINK THEM! The tree is weak enough as is

***NOTE: I am NOT a proponent of giving Henshin the staff alacrity clone. I think it might be okay to give them a T5 that gives them 10% staff alacrity, but remember that monks already inherently have access to increased attack speed and doublestrike from wind stance.

Thus, I think there does need to be a distinction between pure acrobats and pure henshins, and I think it's fine for rogues to have access to a slightly higher alacrity via their enhancements.

Because, remember, a pure monk OR monk splash can achieve 15% enhancement bonus to attack speed (does not stack with haste) and 10% doublestrike with Grandmaster of Forms, whereas a pure rogue must take Blinding Speed but doesn't get the doublestrike.

A splashed rogue can get grandmaster of forms, and a splashed monk can get the staff alacrity. Seems like a balance to me. Again, however, I wouldn't be opposed to a 10% staff alacrity in Henshin, or maybe something more unique, such as -1 stacking saves (max 10) to all staff hits made with the Henshin, or anything that makes their flavor as characters unique rather than vanilla/identical.

Melle alatricity does not matter at all due to simple fact that you have speed gear that alrdy max yout att speed.
For example simple to get necro boots fix this issue.
Dstrike from air stance is also nothing when you compare to killer /which you have ap for/ from rogue.
As i said, words are useful in specific builds.
But void strike is horrible if you have the spend 8 ap to get it esp since you will focus primarly on maybe 1 element as weaken when you use staffs /ligh or fire

But i mean might be derail.
But monks tree build is horrible and beside stances and iron fist its really bad.
Just look at the cores and think ask yourself: why?

I generally spent all my ap into rogue trees and only got shintao prr upgrade when i played stanced palie rogue monks /only really viable staff builds .. well kinda viable, it would be now better to do a barb rogue smthn or palie rogue smthn in harmor due to power of harmor and entirely skip on monk since its really the weakest staff playstyle.

And i really liked 12 monk 3 palie 5 rogue builds or 13 rogue 3 palie4 monk ones.
They were fun, lotsa fun and i focus on kta now instead on char and dmight /like the dc for tacticals more then brute strenght.

Was thinking maybe add in cores damage same as barb and palie got, but make it fire and force or just fire or just force, best would be fire force that scales with melle power.
And a super strong capstone with a 500 damage proc /works with staffs only, so that i can enjoy playing a pure monk staff user again.

[IronClan]

As i said, words are useful in specific builds.

No they aren't you've suggested a theory build that is rubbish, you've ignored that the words give no damage increases to most affixes and only tiny damage increases to affixes that are 5% or 2% procs (10% more damage on a 5% proc! LOL) even 10% more Crippling flames only happens on a Crit and ONLY EFFECTS FIRE VULNERABLE MOBS and it means you choose Crippling flames instead of Mortal fear. Never mind that is also means you choose to roughly HALVE your Staff DPS by choosing a 1d6 X2 TF staff over a MUCH BETTER named staff with WAY more base damage and better crit profiles.

PREPOSTEROUS please just stop.

NO ONE does what you're suggesting, including yourself. No one spends 8AP's to give one of 4 elemental 10% vulnerabilities to "the party" when "the party" means Casters who have their own non stacking 15% version of Elemental words, or melee's who ALSO WOULD GET ZERO TO TRIVIAL BENEFIT from getting 10% of d6's and would ALSO need to be swinging a weapon that has elemental affixes that are the same as the one you spent AP's on.

The words are useful in a Forum DDO fantasy, and even then with a lot of bad theory crafting like using a TF staff on a Staff DPS build, then not taking Mortal Fear, and then only fighting Fire vulnerable Mobs... Enough already.