Rogue - Thief-Acrobat Changes

[Blackheartox]

The point still stands. You will just force people into certain builds which is where we were before armor up. I see many more builds now than before Armor Up. Heck even most bard builds were swashbucking bard/rogue/fighter builds.

We will be back to the must have evasion to survive. How is that good for the game? And you are forcing artificers to take 2 rogue levels... The only class that would benefit is rogues.

Huh?
I just see all casters shift to harmor and palie split, and everyone playing harmor barbs palies and some bards.
What exactly changed in build versatility beside everyone droping evasion?

[Severlin]

With my pally I could heal with ease on heroic content and even more easily on EE since I can even regenerate LoH....there may be something wrong with your build Sev. BTW I regenerate about 300 hp per minute thanks to fast healing and almost 100 hp with every killed enemy thanks to divine crusader. That's of course without taking sacred ground into account. Im not going any deep cause it would give ideas for nerfs....

Have u tried using a cocoon or a heal scroll on a rogue? I did.....a rogue cannot even stand close to a paladin's shadow in terms of defense.

Holy sword outclasses +3 damage with staves simply because of added threat. I could reach 13/20 of crit range with my thief acrobat using sireth. With holy sword it would become 11/20 (45% crit chance). (and holy sword is a spell while +3 stave would mean spend AP in something that could have been survivability)

Again. Give rogues something USEFUL since bards and pallies are death machines already. It's not like I have a rogue right now that I wanna see destroy every quest on EE but it's just troubling to see classes that can do pratically everything with a little splash and others that have to struggle to maintain decency in their main field (I have several examples available if needed).

Rogues can also use those Divine Crusader healing options and twist Cocoon if they wish? I am not seeing how that has anything to do with the effectiveness of trying to heal using Paladin spells in Epic Elite. I apologize am I missing something?

Sev~

[Basic_Uncaring]

Rogues can also use those Divine Crusader healing options and twist Cocoon if they wish? I am not seeing how that has anything to do with the effectiveness of trying to heal using Paladin spells in Epic Elite. I apologize am I missing something?

Sev~

Hamp

EDIT

and the fact that rogues do not have blue bars unless splashed

[esojiul]

Rogues can also use those Divine Crusader healing options and twist Cocoon if they wish? I am not seeing how that has anything to do with the effectiveness of trying to heal using Paladin spells in Epic Elite. I apologize am I missing something?

Sev~

Severlin: i that point you are right.

If you can give monk and rogues more % dodge will be great- it will balance to its low prr .Mayve give "You also gain +2 to maximum Dodge in each tier".

[catscan420]

Huh?
I just see all casters shift to harmor and palie split, and everyone playing harmor barbs palies and some bards.
What exactly changed in build versatility beside everyone droping evasion?

Barbs, bards and Paladins are viable in end game now? Maybe on your server all casters wear armor, but that isn't fully the case. I have an end game pale master who wears robes, and runs only ee content and does just as well as before armor up. Don't mistake the face that casters now have some damage mitigation that isn't gimping the toon to take like evasion.

But whatever, this is DDO not pen and paper. The comparisons ended years ago.

[FestusHood]

No it does not. The paladin one is a spell that costs 0 AP, whereas the rogue locks a lot of AP into a tree. You can get your +3 damage easy from other places if that's what you choose to do with your free AP.

You describe getting the expanded crit range for an acrobat as a huge ap sink, yet you describe the paladin cleaves as being "free". Both cost ap. Another way to look at it is that the rogue can just use feats for the cleaves, and save a lot of ap over the paladin. What else you going to use those feats for?

[maddong]

So could we get the staff alacrity to work while moving?

[Qhualor]

Rogues can also use those Divine Crusader healing options and twist Cocoon if they wish? I am not seeing how that has anything to do with the effectiveness of trying to heal using Paladin spells in Epic Elite. I apologize am I missing something?

Sev~

see this is one of the biggest problem I have with power creep, low hanging fruit and going against the theme of a class. when I think rogue I don't think sp bar and Consecrated Ground. I think UMD, sneak, bluff, deception, sneak attacks and Dodge survivability. me personally, I don't build with an sp bar in mind but I know because of how hard EE mobs hit, the fast pace of groups, the low survivability for rogues when they have agro I do twist Cocoon and that's only because its so easy to fail concentration checks in epics to scroll heals. what I build though is not the norm in game.

[catscan420]

I'm not sure that this is true. As we have it now (evidenced in this very thread), folks are having a hard time justifying Evasion over Heavy Armor and PRR/MRR. I think that what Sev is proposing will give folks a more viable Evasion option, if that is the type of character they want to play.

I certainly don't want to go back to feeling I need to splash 2 Rogue or 2 Monk for Evasion on every character. But what we have now is a trend that forgoes Evasion in favor of PRR/MRR.

I agree, rogues and monks need PRR in the later cores, or maybe a really high dodge cap. They need to be more survivable in EE content.

There is middle ground to be had, that is for sure.

[Blackheartox]

Barbs, bards and Paladins are viable in end game now? Maybe on your server all casters wear armor, but that isn't fully the case. I have an end game pale master who wears robes, and runs only ee content and does just as well as before armor up. Don't mistake the face that casters now have some damage mitigation that isn't gimping the toon to take like evasion.

But whatever, this is DDO not pen and paper. The comparisons ended years ago.

No im making things up, barbs bards and palies arent ee viable now.
Its just a illusion i put into my head that has nothing to do with real ddo.

Im asking for a buff to trap damage on ee.
Since as it is now, they do nothing beside give us 30% more xp if we care enough to disarm them.
I dont see a single thing bad in wanting a buff to a mechanic in game that deserves it.
Why is noone ever wanting a buff for enemies or obstacles to complete quests ..sigh

[davmuzl]

see this is one of the biggest problem I have with power creep, low hanging fruit and going against the theme of a class. when I think rogue I don't think sp bar and Consecrated Ground. I think UMD, sneak, bluff, deception, sneak attacks and Dodge survivability. me personally, I don't build with an sp bar in mind but I know because of how hard EE mobs hit, the fast pace of groups, the low survivability for rogues when they have agro I do twist Cocoon and that's only because its so easy to fail concentration checks in epics to scroll heals. what I build though is not the norm in game.

I agree completly, it's really sad that rather than making build decisions everybody just goes with good healing, solid defense and then as much DPS as possible. There have to be tradeoffs for selfhealing and losing one twist is not enough.

[catscan420]

No im making things up, barbs bards and palies arent ee viable now.
Its just a illusion i put into my head that has nothing to do with real ddo.

Im asking for a buff to trap damage on ee.
Since as it is now, they do nothing beside give us 30% more xp if we care enough to disarm them.
I dont see a single thing bad in wanting a buff to a mechanic in game that deserves it.
Why is noone ever wanting a buff for enemies or obstacles to complete quests ..sigh

They were not end game viable before the changes, that's the point. A year ago, you had a good chance at being denied in an EE WGU as a pure Pally or Barb.

Sure, lets make traps kill everyone without a rogue in the party... to hell with artificers, they can't get to the trap boxes.

I honestly don't care... I would welcome it, but it will just takes us back to last year, with evasion builds being the majority of viable end game builds. I'm sorry but if you think people should wait 4 hours to do some EE content waiting for a rogue, that is bad for the game and will force people to just go the evasion route. It doesn't fix game balance like you think it will.

[davmuzl]

I agree, rogues and monks need PRR in the later cores, or maybe a really high dodge cap. They need to be more survivable in EE content.

There is middle ground to be had, that is for sure.

It should simply be harder to stack prr overall and instead AC should scale better into high epic lvls. I don't think giving high prr to everyone(and rogues and monks would probably last to get it) is the right way to go however it would be nice if monks in particular had a good way to become tanky.

[davmuzl]

They were not end game viable before the changes, that's the point. A year ago, you had a good chance at being denied in an EE WGU as a pure Pally or Barb.

Sure, lets make traps kill everyone without a rogue in the party... to hell with artificers, they can't get to the trap boxes.

I honestly don't care... I would welcome it, but it will just takes us back to last year, with evasion builds being the majority of viable end game builds. I'm sorry but if you think people should wait 4 hours to do some EE content waiting for a rogue, that is bad for the game and will force people to just go the evasion route. It doesn't fix game balance like you think it will.

It is way harder to make evasion work now since the easy paladin saves boost doesn't work for the majority anymore. In general it wouldn't be bad to have deadly traps- that's what I remember traps to be when I started playing this game and the traps in HH are a great addition to the game.

[Myrddinman]

I'm asking for a buff to trap damage on ee.
Since as it is now, they do nothing beside give us 30% more xp if we care enough to disarm them.
I dont see a single thing bad in wanting a buff to a mechanic in game that deserves it.
Why is noone ever wanting a buff for enemies or obstacles to complete quests ..sigh

I can get behind this. I was soloing EE Lords of Dust last night on my pure Pally Vanguard and I walked through them with very little damage...and with only roughly 110 PRR/55 MRR (off destiny).

I was really hoping that the XP boost to disarming traps would see an influx of groups wanting Rogues.../sigh

[catscan420]

It should simply be harder to stack prr overall and instead AC should scale better into high epic lvls. I don't think giving high prr to everyone(and rogues and monks would probably last to get it) is the right way to go however it would be nice if monks in particular had a good way to become tanky.

Yeah but the problem with high dodge, is when that EE Hill Giant's double strike lands and hits for 500 a tick, that will still drop any rogue and probably ruin their experience.

[Thar]

With my pally I could heal with ease on heroic content and even more easily on EE since I can even regenerate LoH....there may be something wrong with your build Sev. BTW I regenerate about 300 hp per minute thanks to fast healing and almost 100 hp with every killed enemy thanks to divine crusader. That's of course without taking sacred ground into account. Im not going any deep cause it would give ideas for nerfs....

Have u tried using a cocoon or a heal scroll on a rogue? I did.....a rogue cannot even stand close to a paladin's shadow in terms of defense.

Holy sword outclasses +3 damage with staves simply because of added threat. I could reach 13/20 of crit range with my thief acrobat using sireth. With holy sword it would become 11/20 (45% crit chance). (and holy sword is a spell while +3 stave would mean spend AP in something that could have been survivability)

Again. Give rogues something USEFUL since bards and pallies are death machines already. It's not like I have a rogue right now that I wanna see destroy every quest on EE but it's just troubling to see classes that can do pratically everything with a little splash and others that have to struggle to maintain decency in their main field (I have several examples available if needed).

14 pally is not a little splash.

[Ayseifn]

Good discussion.

One thing I did want to bring up is that even though I think some people are underestimating these buffs, particularly the gratuitous amount of Maximum Dodge you can get, we are discussing whether or not we want to keep Momentum Defense as is. I think some people have brought some good points about it being a little bit out of flavor for a rogue to have something build up when being hit.

Sev~

None of the dodge stuff really buffs MDB though, well +3 from Shadow Dodge I guess. Right now it's +16 max dodge and +3 MDB, add in that Momentum Defence works off of being hit so you're either going monk for the extra PRR to take the hits and zero MDB to get that dodge or heavy armour still and ignoring the dodge.

Just like the Barbarian pass where people just wore heavy armour a similar split is happening here, no good acrobat build will wear light.

Also still not seeing a reason to go dex based, can you at least give Sweeping Strike a helpless tag like Unbalancing Strike and Balanced Attacks have when you play around with trip stuff?

[G_Lich]

I know I'm shooting myself in the foot here... but the reason most people don't value evasion and sneak is the content. 3 of the top 5 raid bosses are undead. The most difficult mobs in EE are constructs or undead at endgame.

Miior is the only reason to have evasion these days sheerly because of her unique 1 million checks per second evadable buff.

It seems as if Rogues are being balanced because they have advantages that they don't really have at end game. I know we're talking about a utility class here (This is D&D not WOW) but if the utility has worn off then we're looking for end game comparable benefits... the solution would be to make more "Rogue Required" stuff that would also not shun the artificer for not having evasion (but arti should be rolling shadowdancer/insightful reflex anyway for those situations). Mechanic is a good solution to constructs, but paladins have similar anti-undead properties innate in the doubling (or 1.5x'ing?) of light damage already available.

Everything sounds positive so far so that's definitely good, I just think they need a little more oomph, if not in pure dps, more utility/battlefield control.

[davmuzl]

Yeah but the problem with high dodge, is when that EE Hill Giant's double strike lands and hits for 500 a tick, that will still drop any rogue and probably ruin their experience.

Even an ee giant won't hit for 500 per swing and you won't get hit by both swings every time. You should also make sure you got some defense when playing a rogue and as a rogue you are also trying to not be attacked anyway. Now if you are saying that it is unfair when a rogue has to fear being killed all the time when other classes can just faceroll I agree with you. But that's what I was trying to say- it should be less about stacking prr to a point where you ignore 2/3 of the incoming dmg and more about stacking armor especially for tanks.