Intimidate Useless

[Nospheratus]

Thank you, so sword and bored threat-tanking could be viable unless you're one of those gimps who put level-ups in CHR. 100% threat + 50% from stance and other junk should be fine (correct me if I'm wrong . . .).

I know several intimitank-FvS who are crying right now . . .



So it is bugged, got it.

S&B hate tanking is already possible pre-U9!! I do it every time I go into ToD with my DoS paly. I don't believe anyone can take away his agro. Not even STR rogues...

This change to intimi will make the task even easier!

[grodon9999]

S&B hate tanking is already possible pre-U9!! I do it every time I go into ToD with my DoS paly. I don't believe anyone can take away his agro. Not even STR rogues...

This change to intimi will make the task even easier!

A pally can do that now, but a fighter? 100% from Divine Righteousness is better than 50% from SD III stance.

I'm just wondering . . . once they get this working . . . is how gimpy the fighter can get away with being while still holding aggro . . .

[Darkrok]

Nice to hear from Eladrin how it should work, which indeed makes this currently bugged. I bug reported yesterday as well.


((I wonder if anyone checked diplomacy and if that is working correctly.))

Honestly though it could be working correctly. As someone pointed out earlier maybe the buffer isn't enough to reach the 120% threshold to pull agro off of someone.

In which case this wouldn't be a bug so much as a poor design decision. Intim should at least be enough to take someone who devoted the resources to reach 70+ intim to 120%+. How much higher is open to debate. Whether they should have invalidated sword and board tanking is up for debate. I personally think they should have kept shield-blocking (or TWF blocking as my 15/3/2 healing amp build does) as a viable option but let's be clear what we're discussing...certain strategies no longer being viable does not automatically make something a bug. It doesn't even mean it's not WAI. Eladrin's stated what WAI means. The only part we're missing to completely answer our questions is the actual value of the 'small buffer based on your (size modified) intimidate skill'. If that buffer isn't enough to get to well beyond 120% then shield-blocking is done for. If the buffer isn't enough to even get to 120% then intim as a 'pull the enemy off the squishy' move is done for. What would be left is intim as a form of incite which may or may not be WAI.

Assuming that there are no current bugs with the implementation that would mean that Intimidate would serve two purposes. It would allow you to 'catch up' with someone else's agro - very nice if you've died tanking Horoth for example. And it would give you a 50% incite bonus. It's worth having on dps-tanks...it might remove the need for insight items beyond the claw set...but it would be a pale imitation of intimidate's current form.

[Nospheratus]

A pally can do that now, but a fighter? 100% from Divine Righteousness is better than 50% from SD III stance.

I'm just wondering . . . once they get this working . . . is how gimpy the fighter can get away with being while still holding aggro . . .

I don't use Divine Righteousness...

[Darkrok]

Is there any concept (even if this is broken and gets fixed) on how Shield Blocking Intimi-Builds won't be useless with this change?

By definition they can't hold hate agro (or else they would be hate tanks) and I doubt holding agro 40% of the time is worth ... um ... anything?

Has this become just a get the mobs off the noob squishy who pulled more than he could handle and who would make a build for just that use?

The only way shield-blocking intimitanks could be useful is if the 'small modifier' based on the intim score was high enough to last you for 15 seconds until your next intim. Right now, assuming there aren't any bugs (which obviously isn't guaranteed) the small modifier isn't even enough to get agro.

[Levonestral]

A successful use of the intimidate skill should now set your threat with the monster equal to the highest threat opponent plus a small buffer based on your (size modified) intimidate skill. You should also gain a short duration +50% threat multiplier to all attacks (melee, ranged, and spells) for a short period after successful intimidation that stacks with all other threat modifiers. If you are using a weapon and shield, the buffer and threat multiplier are doubled (and the threat modifier lasts longer).

Intimidate should also be triggering target reevaluation by the monster, and since you're on the top of the monster's threat list, it should turn to you. (Assuming it cares about such things. Most zombies, for instance, have completely random aggro.)

I'm curious. The play style being described here is:

- Hit intim
- This pushes you onto the top of the hate aggro list
- Swing either with or without a shield to gain further aggro to keep on the top of the list
- You can also add additional aggro through other gear/enhancements available

So some questions remain:

Where do all the enhancements, gear and feats based around blocking DR & blocking AC come into play now? The fighter line specifically gives bonuses to AC & DR, but only when BLOCKING with a shield. (Yes Shield mastery was updated, but NOT Improved Shield Mastery)

The bonuses of DR & AC when blocking were a huge benefit to many builds, and now that it's being suggested that players not use blocking as much, where in this new play style do you perceive these coming into play now?

It could be possible if you have enough DPS that you could take a moment to block a bit near the end of the intim cooldown cycle, but for the very small gain from that short period of time, are those enhancement/feat benefits worth it anymore?

The changes in play style can be adapted to, which I'm fine with. I will miss the intim/block style I had for my intim (I also have a second hate-tank), but I feel there needs to be further changes made to better support the losses taken from a S&B intim-tank.

I'd suggest you try to make the old blocking AC & DR available to the character just by having the shield equipped alone. Or something similar to what you've done with Shield Mastery by including overall damage reduction by having the feat alone.

Keeping them as bonuses when blocking and changing Intimidate to make blocking no longer a preferred method (by your own new design) just seems a little odd now.

Can we get feedback as to possible further plans for these?

[grodon9999]

Another thing missed is the 5 points of blocking AC that shield users just lost. That frankly sucks.

[Tirisha]

A pally can do that now, but a fighter? 100% from Divine Righteousness is better than 50% from SD III stance.

I'm just wondering . . . once they get this working . . . is how gimpy the fighter can get away with being while still holding aggro . . .

SD threat doesn't work unless they are fixing it in light of making intim tanks hate tanks. The Defender of sibery's hate works however and coincidentally the divine righteousness does as well.

[Coldin]

Honestly though it could be working correctly. As someone pointed out earlier maybe the buffer isn't enough to reach the 120% threshold to pull agro off of someone.

In which case this wouldn't be a bug so much as a poor design decision. Intim should at least be enough to take someone who devoted the resources to reach 70+ intim to 120%+. How much higher is open to debate. Whether they should have invalidated sword and board tanking is up for debate. I personally think they should have kept shield-blocking (or TWF blocking as my 15/3/2 healing amp build does) as a viable option but let's be clear what we're discussing...certain strategies no longer being viable does not automatically make something a bug. It doesn't even mean it's not WAI. Eladrin's stated what WAI means. The only part we're missing to completely answer our questions is the actual value of the 'small buffer based on your (size modified) intimidate skill'. If that buffer isn't enough to get to well beyond 120% then shield-blocking is done for. If the buffer isn't enough to even get to 120% then intim as a 'pull the enemy off the squishy' move is done for. What would be left is intim as a form of incite which may or may not be WAI.

Assuming that there are no current bugs with the implementation that would mean that Intimidate would serve two purposes. It would allow you to 'catch up' with someone else's agro - very nice if you've died tanking Horoth for example. And it would give you a 50% incite bonus. It's worth having on dps-tanks...it might remove the need for insight items beyond the claw set...but it would be a pale imitation of intimidate's current form.

Where is this 120% value coming from? Why would it work like that?

As I understand it, Intimidate moves you to the top of the Hate list, and then adds a bit of additional hate based on Intimidate score. If you're on the top of the Hate list, then the monster will attack you. It should be as simple as that.

The new version of Intimidate should actually be a much improved version of what we have on live. Instead of a successful intimidate only forcing a monster to attack the player for just 6 seconds, the new Intimidate will actually allow a player to keep aggro indefinitely from just one Intimidate (assuming no one is attacking).

I'm really not sure why people are reading more into how Intimidate will work, and assuming it's more complicated than necessary.

[Coldin]

Another thing missed is the 5 points of blocking AC that shield users just lost. That frankly sucks.

Which 5 points of blocking AC?

[FrozenNova]

Seems to me that intimidate has flipped -
Where once it was ideal for preventing the party being overwhelmed by swarms and pretty poor at maintaining single boss agro, it is now rather inefficient v swarms that are taking aoe damage (firewall) but best at ensuring the boss maintains his attention span - *provided* that you can put some effort into generating hate. I'm okay with this. Otherwise, the ideal tank would be 100% intimidate and defensive focused, allowing them to reach inane ac and dr values with minimal offensive capacity. This defense-only notion was in part what brought about our currently inane opposing to-hits. Now, a balance will have to be maintained between defense and hate generation.

Of course, all of this is moot; a geared paladin can still go all defense and maintain enough hate amp to keep agro, while a decent monk splash can still achieve otherwise impossible offensive ac. Ah well. Step in a right direction.
The sizable loss to defense capacity as per the new pointlessness of blocking is a real shame though, especially considering all the bonuses granted to it by the defensive PrE's.

Coldin, fighters or paladins with all tiers of their defensive prestige gain 5 blocking ac rather than the normal 2.

[grodon9999]

SD threat doesn't work unless they are fixing it in light of making intim tanks hate tanks. The Defender of sibery's hate works however and coincidentally the divine righteousness does as well.

Wrong - it ABSOLUTELY DOES WORK now in the current game.

[grodon9999]

Which 5 points of blocking AC?

A Stalwart III would get 5 points of blocking AC when shield-blocking which they cannot get anymore because if they block they won't hold aggro. That and blocking DR just got flushed down the toilet.

[Dragaer]

Which 5 points of blocking AC?

The +5 to ac while Blocking maybe ?

As many have stated here and in other posts - the benefit to stalwart turtleing was the +5 to ac and 40ish DR which will now be lost due to the push in the game to hate tank. The new 20% DR while equiping a tower shield does not come close to 40 DR blocking.

The point of having a defender was the damage mitigation/AC to conserve (healer) resources. With having to DPS while tanking, these classes have lost a little of their benefit.

EDIT: Sorry Grodon - posting at work (I'm such a bad employee) and not getting mine out before you already answered due to me having to 'work' sometimes. Didn't mean to double post the same answer.

[Levonestral]

Which 5 points of blocking AC?

This AC Coldin:

Fighter Stalwart Defender III;

Your defensive mastery is complete. In addition to the bonuses of Fighter Stalwart Defender I and II, this prestige enhancement increases your armor class by 1, grants +2 to your intimidate skill, increases your maximum dexterity bonus allowed by medium or heavy armor and shields, and grants additional armor class and damage reduction when blocking with a shield. In additon, when you have a shield equipped, your DR is upgraded from DR 4/- to DR 6/-. You may expend a use of Fighter action boost to enter a defensive stance.;


With all 3 stances, you gain a total of +5 to blocking AC which shows up in the small window beside you AC in the character sheet. Without blocking, you don't gain this additional AC or DR mentioned above.

It's true, by the new design you can hold a monster forever with a single intim as long as nobody is attacking it which would be a great use of the above AC/DR above.

But lets face it, that is a limited usage and most of the time you will be the main focus of a raid boss with everyone else beating on it at the same time. Which, by new design, will require you to swing, and not block, to maintain aggro. In turn, losing both the AC & DR bonuses stated by the enhancement line.

[KannyaAryien]

Honestly, I'm not going to Lama to preview this update. I have a toon that is specifically geared to intimitank epic Lailat and the mother hound. Every piece of her gear points to this, myddo Kanbeats if you have questions. She can self buff to 79 intim., the bare minimum needed to no-fail intim. checks on either mob (even if I roll a 1 on the hound, etc.)

Now, I spent the better part of 6 months gearing this toon, TRing her, and preparing her for what she needs to do. If the devs have decided that intimidate is going to work differently now, okie dokie. I will adjust accordingly. I say that because, frankly, I have fun on this game, and I kinda enjoy having the rug pulled out from under me every now and then. Does that mean I will LR her? Hell no. I can change gear and respec enhancements, she'll be fine.

If intimidate really and truly is broken when it comes live, it'll suck. But meh, we can find other ways to handle things. Frankly, I think any time the playerbase starts relying on any given solution, we're kinda asking for the devs to take it away. I'm ok with that, because it makes me adjust how I think, and how I play. And I'd like to think it makes me a better player.

However, I would encourage those of you who are getting angry and talking about shelving toons, this is not the end of the world, at least, not in my opinion. If you're really that upset because they're making changes to the game that you didn't approve of, then that's your right. But it is a game, and it is supposed to be fun.

Anyway, I'm gearing up for flames, because the voice of reason and logic is rarely accepted with open arms. :P

[Tirisha]

(Yes Shield mastery was updated, but NOT Improved Shield Mastery)

I thought this at first but when I looked again at the Release notes it says Shield Master Feats meaning both of them. I'm not sure if the stated outcome is for obtain both the feats or one. We could use some clarity here.

I'm in total agreement as too most your other comments I don't get what the point is forcing shield blockers to melee (invalidating many shields/pre enhancments). What's the difference between holding down the shift button and activating AC boost or the F key (my attack button) and activating haste boosts? Well they both have pros and cons one does more damage so the boss dies faster the other mitigates more incoming damage so that the healers aren't locked down on healing the tank. The short answer too my question however is playstyle and it is downright irresponsible for Turbine to remove a playstyle from the game; taking away versatility in favor of generality.

[Coldin]

A Stalwart III would get 5 points of blocking AC when shield-blocking which they cannot get anymore because if they block they won't hold aggro. That and blocking DR just got flushed down the toilet.

Oh, so the AC you think you'll be losing because you're basing that assumption on a currently broken version of Intimidate?

Gotcha.

[Tirisha]

This AC Coldin:

Fighter Stalwart Defender III;

Your defensive mastery is complete. In addition to the bonuses of Fighter Stalwart Defender I and II, this prestige enhancement increases your armor class by 1, grants +2 to your intimidate skill, increases your maximum dexterity bonus allowed by medium or heavy armor and shields, and grants additional armor class and damage reduction when blocking with a shield. In additon, when you have a shield equipped, your DR is upgraded from DR 4/- to DR 6/-. You may expend a use of Fighter action boost to enter a defensive stance.;


With all 3 stances, you gain a total of +5 to blocking AC which shows up in the small window beside you AC in the character sheet. Without blocking, you don't gain this additional AC or DR mentioned above.

It's true, by the new design you can hold a monster forever with a single intim as long as nobody is attacking it which would be a great use of the above AC/DR above.

But lets face it, that is a limited usage and most of the time you will be the main focus of a raid boss with everyone else beating on it at the same time. Which, by new design, will require you to swing, and not block, to maintain aggro. In turn, losing both the AC & DR bonuses stated by the enhancement line.

Totally agree just wanted too add:

Making a limit build designed for Raids and tank worthy epics even more limited.

[Tirisha]

Oh, so the AC you think you'll be losing because you're basing that assumption on a currently broken version of Intimidate?

Gotcha.

Broken? I use it all the time. Sure it is glitchy too the point you have to perfect your timing but it does work. Unless you mean OP which is hardly the case.