Intimidate Useless

[Levonestral]

I thought this at first but when I looked again at the Release notes it says Shield Master Feats meaning both of them. I'm not sure if the stated outcome is for obtain both the feats or one. We could use some clarity here.

Actually I was on Lam yesterday and only Shield Mastery was changed (as per their release notes).

Improved Shield Mastery still was given the DR3 in text at least. I didn't have time to actually test it to see if it might have been changed also.

[Dragaer]

Oh, so the AC you think you'll be losing because you're basing that assumption on a currently broken version of Intimidate?

Gotcha.

lol coldin - you're missing the point. It is a valid assumtion. Cooldown has changed from 6 secs to 15 secs. The devs have stated it is a small buffer that lasts a little over 6 secs. So the assumption to DPS to maintain aggro is very valid. Which brings in the loss of AC and blocking DR.

[Coldin]

Broken? I use it all the time. Sure it is glitchy too the point you have to perfect your timing but it does work. Unless you mean OP which is hardly the case.

No, I mean the version of Intimidate we're seeing on Lamannia, which none of us can do proper testing on, because it is not WAI.

[Levonestral]

Broken? I use it all the time. Sure it is glitchy too the point you have to perfect your timing but it does work. Unless you mean OP which is hardly the case.

Yeah, took me time to work that one out to

[Coldin]

lol coldin - you're missing the point. It is a valid assumtion. Cooldown has changed from 6 secs to 15 secs. The devs have stated it is a small buffer that lasts a little over 6 secs. So the assumption to DPS to maintain aggro is very valid. Which brings in the loss of AC and blocking DR.

*shrug* I'm seeing a lot of overreaction in this thread about Intimidate being dead, and turtling being dead, and everyone will just have to do pure hate tanking from now on.

Tanks may indeed need to start doing a small amount of DPS, but right now, we don't know if that will be the case. We don't know how small or large this threat buffer will be. It could actually be quite large when Intimidate succeeds by a sizable amount. It could also be that threat buffers will stack, meaning that if a tank never loses aggro from one Intimidate to another, they will have an even larger cushion to work with.

Just saying that maybe we should wait until we can see a fully functioning Intimidate, or at least until we know some hard numbers on that threat buffer.

[Noelemahc]

A successful use of the intimidate skill should now set your threat with the monster equal to the highest threat opponent plus a small buffer based on your (size modified) intimidate skill. You should also gain a short duration +50% threat multiplier to all attacks (melee, ranged, and spells) for a short period after successful intimidation that stacks with all other threat modifiers. If you are using a weapon and shield, the buffer and threat multiplier are doubled (and the threat modifier lasts longer).

Intimidate should also be triggering target reevaluation by the monster, and since you're on the top of the monster's threat list, it should turn to you. (Assuming it cares about such things. Most zombies, for instance, have completely random aggro.)

So using Intimidate to tank certain bosses (epic demon queen for example) is now obsolete? The cool down was changed from 6 seconds to 15, and someone is guaranteed to pull her from you if you are shield blocking and intimidating within the first second or two. The change is cool if you don't need to actually shield block, but for the times when you do it seems as if the change hurts more than helps.

I didn't think this method would allow you to hold a mob for even 6 seconds, but now you have to worry about what to do for 15 seconds instead of 6. In epic demon queen that's too much time to not have aggro imo and the only place you actually want a true intim tank.

I guess it depends on how much of a buffer, but when tanking and blocking against epic demon queen, no matter how big that buffer is I'd imagine a Barb will surpass that buffer in only one swing or two. Any chance the cool down can be restored to 6 seconds?

Epic demon queen is the only fight in the game I even use intimidate on anymore (unless I feel like a charity run of hound). The rest I just threat tank and nobody can pull aggro from me as it is even without the 50% threat mod from Intimidate. I've given up using a shield and weapon to tank anything but epic demon queen because ac was pointless (and the damage wasn't enough to actually tank off of an epic geared barb), which is a different animal all together.

To be honest there is no incentive for me to even sword and board tank anymore because you:

A. Don't have enough feats on a paladin to even make using a shield worthwhile. The shield mastery -20% physical damage is brilliant, but can't even fit it in. I always though a Defender prestige should get those defensive feats for free to be honest.
B. You have to use a bastard sword to tank with a shield. Otherwise you don't do enough damage (glancing blows with full thf line) to warrant sword and board. Also once again, Paladins don't have the feats for it. Even if you use Khopesh, still need a feat for it.
C. Don't have enough ac to matter still without the most uber twinked gear there is, which will still only put you at maybe 80ish ac (90 fully buffed up with every buff in the game) while shield blocking with combat expertise on. Which is pretty high ac, but still barely enough for ToD normal, and equivalent of having 10 ac on epic (and there is something wrong with that). Of course if you do strive for that ac, you completely sacrifice your damage output which means you can't threat tank anyway.

I like the change, I think it's pretty cool. Honestly defensive tanking does not work in this game though. In this game dps is king, and that's the only thing that matters. Unless you can out dps an epic geared barb, you are not going to tank. The only way you are going to still tank and not out dps a barb is if you are a Paladin with divine righteousness, and even then you are not going to do it while sword and board.

I wish you could tank defensively in this game, but it just simply cannot be done. Paladins don't have the feats for it, and fighters don't have the threat generation for it. The only way to come close to it was intim and shield block, which this change looks like you won't be able to do anymore.

[Junts]

lol coldin - you're missing the point. It is a valid assumtion. Cooldown has changed from 6 secs to 15 secs. The devs have stated it is a small buffer that lasts a little over 6 secs. So the assumption to DPS to maintain aggro is very valid. Which brings in the loss of AC and blocking DR.

Loss of blocking dr yes, but you can build your character to hold aggro even in combat expertise and a shield. Remember, you get a 50% threat buff after intimidating, there are threat gear bonuses, and stance bonuses. At the moment, my paladin is capable of +135% bonus threat (100 divine righteousness, 15 tod set, 20 claw set). With this configuration, i need only a tiny head-start on even the best dps characters, and with the buff from the intimidate change (the actual buff, the threat generation bonus ater using the skill), I wouldn't even need a head start to hold aggro from Shade (at 235% bonus threat).

If you're a paladin, you could probably hold aggro with terrible gear even over far better equipped other players. With a fighter, you'll be 50% threat bonus behind (stance 50% instead of 100% righteousness) and you'll pretty much be able to hold vs anyone of equivalent equipment ability if you build to do so. Since the fighter can build both for twf alternatives when not tanking and more surely guarantee they hit every intimidate to gain the buff, they're in a pretty good place.

if you don't, well, then you're gonna suck at this.

I, for one, couldn't be gladder that the terrible play of intimiblock and never press other keys is gone. Fighters haven't had the option of threat tanking with max ac prior to this update. Paladins could do it (due to righteousness and much higher sword and board dps potential with the capstone) but fighters are just gaining the ability, basically.

[Levonestral]

No, I mean the version of Intimidate we're seeing on Lamannia, which none of us can do proper testing on, because it is not WAI.

A guild member and I are going to jump back onto Lam Wed when it's back up and try out some further testing on it.

My initial testing wasn't good though, I couldn't even keep aggro off a hireling !

[Tirisha]

No, I mean the version of Intimidate we're seeing on Lamannia, which none of us can do proper testing on, because it is not WAI.

ah Gotcha.

[Levonestral]

Tanks may indeed need to start doing a small amount of DPS, but right now, we don't know if that will be the case. We don't know how small or large this threat buffer will be. It could actually be quite large when Intimidate succeeds by a sizable amount. It could also be that threat buffers will stack, meaning that if a tank never loses aggro from one Intimidate to another, they will have an even larger cushion to work with.

Just saying that maybe we should wait until we can see a fully functioning Intimidate, or at least until we know some hard numbers on that threat buffer.

Yeah, I'll agree here.

My first reaction way back when I heard they were changing Intim was that this would be the way it would have worked.

At face value from the release notes, and based on what appears to be broken on Lam, it currently doesn't look good. Which is why everyone is reacting this way.

We can hope for the best, but just in case this is the way they intended, my previous comments still stand.

[Coldin]

A guild member and I are going to jump back onto Lam Wed when it's back up and try out some further testing on it.

My initial testing wasn't good though, I couldn't even keep aggro off a hireling !

Wait till after Thursday when we get a new Lamannia build. More testing on Wednesday probably won't do any good.

[Thrudh]

I, for one, couldn't be gladder that the terrible play of intimiblock and never press other keys is gone. Fighters haven't had the option of threat tanking with max ac prior to this update. Paladins could do it (due to righteousness and much higher sword and board dps potential with the capstone) but fighters are just gaining the ability, basically.

Well then the devs need to do something for Stalwart Defenders then...

Since blocking and using intimidate to hold aggro is no longer feasible, all those bonuses Stalwart Defenders get WHILE BLOCKING are near worthless.

[Tirisha]

Loss of blocking dr yes, but you can build your character to hold aggro even in combat expertise and a shield. Remember, you get a 50% threat buff after intimidating, there are threat gear bonuses, and stance bonuses. At the moment, my paladin is capable of +135% bonus threat (100 divine righteousness, 15 tod set, 20 claw set). With this configuration, i need only a tiny head-start on even the best dps characters, and with the buff from the intimidate change (the actual buff, the threat generation bonus ater using the skill), I wouldn't even need a head start to hold aggro from Shade (at 235% bonus threat).

If you're a paladin, you could probably hold aggro with terrible gear even over far better equipped other players. With a fighter, you'll be 50% threat bonus behind (stance 50% instead of 100% righteousness) and you'll pretty much be able to hold vs anyone of equivalent equipment ability if you build to do so. Since the fighter can build both for twf alternatives when not tanking and more surely guarantee they hit every intimidate to gain the buff, they're in a pretty good place.

if you don't, well, then you're gonna suck at this.

I, for one, couldn't be gladder that the terrible play of intimiblock and never press other keys is gone. Fighters haven't had the option of threat tanking with max ac prior to this update. Paladins could do it (due to righteousness and much higher sword and board dps potential with the capstone) but fighters are just gaining the ability, basically.

1) You also lose the blocking AC that is granted too a Fighter that takes the Stalwart Defender line.

2) It is my understanding that the Stalwart Defender Stance does not generate Hate were as the Defender of Siberys stance is working properly. *meaning the pally Generates even more hate than a fighter*

3) Holding the Shift key may seem boring too you but it is in fact the same as holding the attack key too some.

[Dragaer]

I, for one, couldn't be gladder that the terrible play of intimiblock and never press other keys is gone. Fighters haven't had the option of threat tanking with max ac prior to this update. Paladins could do it (due to righteousness and much higher sword and board dps potential with the capstone) but fighters are just gaining the ability, basically.

I agree Junts - this is a very good change for fighters. The arguments (at least mine) for stalwarts was based on how the PRE was designed and stated. They should change the stawart PRE benefits that specifically state + to AC and DR while blocking, since it will not be needed anymore (blocking that is).

I am looking forward to never having to turtle an entire boss fight anymore.

Edit: But again, the stalwart PRE is designed to turtle (based on the function/description of its tier III). If this is not going to be an effective way for this specific defender type to tank then it needs to be changed or removed. It changes a build; with the same impact as if they removed the DoS tier III "Glorious Stand".

[MrWizard]

well...other than the mindset that an intim tank is solely made to stand in a corner shield blocking with intimidation being mashed...this is my take if it actually ends up working as advertised...

1) intim is a skill, not a build. Anyone can use it.
2) intim and fighting mobs while in a firewall is great, but they could easily break after 6 seconds and run off, now it looks as though many or all could stay.

3) the buffer is not clear based on how high intim is...that could be a big number or a small one. We have no idea until they either tell us something (not gonna happen) or someone tries to 'test it out'.

4) intim seems to be even more awesome for large groups of mobs since it will be based on threat. Normally a large mob spawns, you grab aggro and then six seconds later they all run off to where they were going in the first place. Now You can hold a lot of mobs while beating one..much better.

5) someone who just blocks and intims is useless...however, when party or tank is overwhelmed it is preferred over dying. And does help the party.


One of the things that a high ac/intim tank deals with in leveling up is going into dungeons and groups you should not be in....much higher than you would normally be in. This does mean you may be taking so much damage you have no choice but to turtle it up a bit.
With newer non-geared toons this is even more prevelant. It just happens.

Intim is a 'skill' that draws aggro off others to the person using it. Intim is not only applicable in 'turtle mode'.

Turtle mode is completely dependent upon your ability to survive.

Turtle against epic mobs means you take little to no damage making both ac and dr rather attractive for less geared groups and those in trouble...just like in all other dungeons.

Turtling horoth is preferred as a death is a complete waste of everyone's time and resources, baring again, gear gear gear and survivability.


Improved shield mastery....hoping that adds another 20% to the damage reduction. 20% from shield mastery is huge huge huge. Makes an epic shield block 0 damage most of the time...huge huge huge.


nothing is more lame than sitting there holding the shift key and pressing intim during a boss fight...except maybe having auto attack on while eating a burger and picking your nose while you are on his back...

[grodon9999]

I like the change, I think it's pretty cool. Honestly defensive tanking does not work in this game though. In this game dps is king, and that's the only thing that matters. Unless you can out dps an epic geared barb, you are not going to tank. The only way you are going to still tank and not out dps a barb is if you are a Paladin with divine righteousness, and even then you are not going to do it while sword and board.

Wrong.

[karl_k0ch]

I'm acutally interested if this change will open up the option for a Dwarven Bard to hate tank with S&B. (Or rather Daxe&B.) Because, obvoiusly, he won't be able to turtletank at all.

If yes, I like it. If no, I'm going to LR my level 12 bard.

[Ganolyn]

Ahhh, it's no big deal. I for one welcome our new Sorc Hate Tank overlords...

[sigtrent]

However, I would encourage those of you who are getting angry and talking about shelving toons, this is not the end of the world, at least, not in my opinion. If you're really that upset because they're making changes to the game that you didn't approve of, then that's your right. But it is a game, and it is supposed to be fun.

Anyway, I'm gearing up for flames, because the voice of reason and logic is rarely accepted with open arms. :P

I don't think you appreciate how drastic this change is. Its a bit like building a wizard to 20 and then being told that spells that target enemies no longer work and you will have to play as a buffer from now on.

Many characters are built primarily to intimidate enemies and hold their attention. In lamania this is frankly not possible any more. Its not less effective, its utterly ineffective.

It takes a lot of work and investment and pretty much flushes it. (Again, as its currently working.)

The voice of reason in this case is to acknowledge that it is currently non-functional and not a change we should have in the game under these conditions. If you don't play an intimidate based tank, you should probably reserve your judgement.

[PresentTense]

Where is this 120% value coming from? Why would it work like that?

As I understand it, Intimidate moves you to the top of the Hate list, and then adds a bit of additional hate based on Intimidate score. If you're on the top of the Hate list, then the monster will attack you. It should be as simple as that.

The new version of Intimidate should actually be a much improved version of what we have on live. Instead of a successful intimidate only forcing a monster to attack the player for just 6 seconds, the new Intimidate will actually allow a player to keep aggro indefinitely from just one Intimidate (assuming no one is attacking).

I'm really not sure why people are reading more into how Intimidate will work, and assuming it's more complicated than necessary.

I would agree with this. It seems to me the goal of these intim changes is not to make turtling up useless but rather to make S&B characters more viable. A lot of the changes in U9 seem geared toward giving S&B characters the middle ground - not as much dps as TWF or THF and not as much defense as a DoS or StD, but a reasonable shot at both. By making intim a threat modifier instead of a separate mechanic that overrides the threat system, it makes aggro management a more streamlined system.

lol coldin - you're missing the point. It is a valid assumtion. Cooldown has changed from 6 secs to 15 secs. The devs have stated it is a small buffer that lasts a little over 6 secs. So the assumption to DPS to maintain aggro is very valid. Which brings in the loss of AC and blocking DR.

Cooldown was indeed changed from 6 seconds to 15 seconds, but we have no idea what the size of the buffer will be. Saying a successful will only be enough to last 6 seconds doesn't make any sense, because it will last forever if no one does any damage to the monster - your threat has been increased by your use of the skill. Once this is WAI, I would expect a turtle to receive enough of a threat bonus to last the whole 15 seconds. They're not out to purposefully break the tanking prestige classes. They just want to make having a reasonable intim on a S&B character or even a hate tank a useful tool for gaining and maintaining aggro.