Intimidate Useless

[sigtrent]

A guild member and I are going to jump back onto Lam Wed when it's back up and try out some further testing on it.

My initial testing wasn't good though, I couldn't even keep aggro off a hireling !

Yep, mine too. It was simply a useless skill as its currently operating which makes me thing whatever change was made isn't working properly.

[Dragaer]

Saying a successful will only be enough to last 6 seconds doesn't make any sense, because it will last forever if no one does any damage to the monster - your threat has been increased by your use of the skill. Once this is WAI, I would expect a turtle to receive enough of a threat bonus to last the whole 15 seconds. They're not out to purposefully break the tanking prestige classes. They just want to make having a reasonable intim on a S&B character or even a hate tank a useful tool for gaining and maintaining aggro.

I hear ya, but...

A successful use of the intimidate skill should now set your threat with the monster equal to the highest threat opponent plus a small buffer based on your (size modified) intimidate skill. You should also gain a short duration +50% threat multiplier to all attacks (melee, ranged, and spells) for a short period after successful intimidation that stacks with all other threat modifiers. If you are using a weapon and shield, the buffer and threat multiplier are doubled (and the threat modifier lasts longer).

Intimidate should also be triggering target reevaluation by the monster, and since you're on the top of the monster's threat list, it should turn to you. (Assuming it cares about such things. Most zombies, for instance, have completely random aggro.)

The words "small buffer" and "short duration" is what has caught my attention. Will this be enough to last at least 15 seconds worth of other chars DPS? Who knows. It may or may not. If it does not, it indeed changes SD drastically - which is why so many have been vocal about this. And as I (and many others) have stated before, the purpose of having a SD is the blocking AC and DR. With having to mele (to benifit from the "short duration" threat multiplier etc) this negates (arguably) the biggest part of the SD tier III enhancement.

[Maegin]

Never understood those that plan thier entire character around using a skill, which on the drop of a dime, turbin could nerf. Shouldnt you plan your toon around DPS, and have intimi be a side boost? That way, your not d!cked if something goes wrong by putting all your eggs in one basket?

Sorry for de-rail. Enlighten me, please

[PresentTense]

I think what Eladrin's trying to get at is that a character without a shield will not be able to last 15 seconds. I would guess that's why it was extended to 15 seconds - for a (bad) hate tank hitting intim, having it work, then losing aggro four seconds later, would be frustrating. Without a shield, your automatic buffer will run out, and it will be up to that 50 percent threat modifier to carry you over to the next intim. It allows intim to act as an additional threat modifier for a hate tank, making them more capable of maintaining aggro in the face of burst dps such as an all-out nuke from a nearby caster or a paladin getting several lucky pops in a row.

I understand the fear about intim being broken, because I have an intimitank with ... unreliable dps. If I'm expected to hit things, it's not going to work out well. But with all the bonuses to tanking that come with being in shield block mode, it would be a silly decision to tell players they can only expect to receive these bonuses half the time because the rest of the time they have to be swinging away. The devs don't make changes to screw people over - they do it to rebalance the game. When one thing (Tempest splash, firewall, autocrits) gets too powerful, they knock it down a peg and make alternatives (S&B, one-shot damage spells) more appealing.

[Ironforge_Clan]

Never understood those that plan thier entire character around using a skill, which on the drop of a dime, turbin could nerf. Shouldnt you plan your toon around DPS, and have intimi be a side boost? That way, your not d!cked if something goes wrong by putting all your eggs in one basket?

Sorry for de-rail. Enlighten me, please

I happen to agree with you here. I mean by making your intim a one trick pony you are just asking for trouble.

[Dragaer]

Never understood those that plan thier entire character around using a skill, which on the drop of a dime, turbin could nerf. Shouldnt you plan your toon around DPS, and have intimi be a side boost? That way, your not d!cked if something goes wrong by putting all your eggs in one basket?

Sorry for de-rail. Enlighten me, please

It is not the skill, but the SD PRE that could be affected.

Speaking for myself, I made my SD after being a healer for awhile. The purpose for that class is the damage mitigation/conservation of resources, and only 'turtles' for raid bosses. The rest of the time he is a moderate DPS fighter. Intim is just a tool for a SD, it is not the entire build.

Am I foolish and stupid for doing it? Maybe. I was just trying to use an option the game presented.

[Levonestral]

Never understood those that plan thier entire character around using a skill, which on the drop of a dime, turbin could nerf. Shouldnt you plan your toon around DPS, and have intimi be a side boost? That way, your not d!cked if something goes wrong by putting all your eggs in one basket?

Sorry for de-rail. Enlighten me, please

It's called build variety.

Coming from someone who has created and played many builds over the last 5 years:

I have two "tanks". One is a DR/Blocking intim, the other is a hate-tank. I play and enjoy both because they have each their advantages and disadvantages. I have many, many other characters who are focused on DPS, and they do their jobs well, I really don't need "another DPS". And no, my Intim isn't a "one trick poney". He still has the TWF feats and decent str. Not going to be high dps, but he's not a wet noodle either.

I don't agree with your comment. Why are you chastising people for wanting to make a build that isn't just DPS? Are people not allowed to make various other types of builds because the game allows them to do so? If turbine didn't want people to make these types of builds, then why have the entire set of enhancement lines with weighted toward blocking ?

As I've said earlier, if it is their intention to remove blocking from the game (or make it less used), then they really should go back and revisit the enhancement lines based on the new changes.

[Coldin]

I hear ya, but...



The words "small buffer" and "short duration" is what has caught my attention. Will this be enough to last at least 15 seconds worth of other chars DPS? Who knows. It may or may not. If it does not, it indeed changes SD drastically - which is why so many have been vocal about this. And as I (and many others) have stated before, the purpose of having a SD is the blocking AC and DR. With having to mele (to benifit from the "short duration" threat multiplier etc) this negates (arguably) the biggest part of the SD tier III enhancement.

Small buffer we don't know yet.

Short duration is either 30 seconds (without a shield). Or a full minute. (With a shield.)

(Or was it 15 seconds and 30 seconds?)

Edit: Or I was completely wrong and it was 6 and 12 seconds. Funny, I could have sworn it was longer than that.

[Eladrin]

We think we've found the problem - the buffer wasn't applying correctly. (In fact, it was zero if the opposing creature was equal or greater in size to you.)

The words "small buffer" and "short duration" is what has caught my attention. Will this be enough to last at least 15 seconds worth of other chars DPS who knows. It may or may not. If it does not, it indeed changes SD drastically - which is why so many have been vocal about this.

You buffer should be equal to your size modified intimidate score, multiplied by two if you're using a shield. This counts as "melee" threat, so effects that amplify melee threat apply.

A monster that has been intimidated will not reevaluate targets on its own for at least five seconds. (If someone forces reevaluation, then it will occur as expected.) Monsters that select targets randomly should still target the intimidator.

Intimidate applies one of the following effects after the threat modification occurs:

Intimidating Presence
You have successfully used the intimidate skill, and gain a 50% bonus to the threat generated by your melee attacks, missile attacks, and spells, making monsters more likely to attack you for a short time. (6 seconds)

Intimidating Presence (Shield)
You have successfully used the intimidate skill, and gain a 100% bonus to the threat generated by your melee attacks, missile attacks, and spells, making monsters more likely to attack you for a short time. (12 seconds)

[grodon9999]

We think we've found the problem - the buffer wasn't applying correctly. (In fact, it was zero if the opposing creature was equal or greater in size to you.)


You buffer should be equal to your size modified intimidate score, multiplied by two if you're using a shield. This counts as "melee" threat, so effects that amplify melee threat apply.

A monster that has been intimidated will not reevaluate targets on its own for at least five seconds. (If someone forces reevaluation, then it will occur as expected.) Monsters that select targets randomly should still target the intimidator.

Intimidate applies one of the following effects after the threat modification occurs:

Intimidating Presence
You have successfully used the intimidate skill, and gain a 50% bonus to the threat generated by your melee attacks, missile attacks, and spells, making monsters more likely to attack you for a short time. (6 seconds)

Intimidating Presence (Shield)
You have successfully used the intimidate skill, and gain a 100% bonus to the threat generated by your melee attacks, missile attacks, and spells, making monsters more likely to attack you for a short time. (12 seconds)

Sweet, let us know when you need it tested.

[PresentTense]

Never understood those that plan thier entire character around using a skill, which on the drop of a dime, turbin could nerf. Shouldnt you plan your toon around DPS, and have intimi be a side boost? That way, your not d!cked if something goes wrong by putting all your eggs in one basket?

Sorry for de-rail. Enlighten me, please

I have enough DPS. My monster is dps. My assassin is dps. My KotC is dps. My intimitank is not dps, and he's not a standard build. I've had enough of building the same things all the time. So I built an 18 cleric / 2 paladin that will have an AC and an intim in the high 70s and an aura that will hit me for 69 hp on a normal tick and more than 150 on a crit. Sure, some people might not want to group with him, and his numbers are never going to be good enough for elite Horoth. But it's different, and it's fun. And self-healing against raid bosses amuses me.

[Dragaer]

Intimidate applies one of the following effects after the threat modification occurs:

Intimidating Presence
You have successfully used the intimidate skill, and gain a 50% bonus to the threat generated by your melee attacks, missile attacks, and spells, making monsters more likely to attack you for a short time. (6 seconds)

Intimidating Presence (Shield)
You have successfully used the intimidate skill, and gain a 100% bonus to the threat generated by your melee attacks, missile attacks, and spells, making monsters more likely to attack you for a short time. (12 seconds)

Wow, thanks for that info Eladrin. So am I reading this correctly, that an intim and block will loose aggro at 12 secs (with 3 secs of cooldown left)?

If so, will their be changes to the SD to allow it to have a functional PRE and mele? Perhaps get a clickie like the Palli's 'Glorious Stand' to make up for the lost blocking AC and DR?

[Coldin]

We think we've found the problem - the buffer wasn't applying correctly. (In fact, it was zero if the opposing creature was equal or greater in size to you.)

Could it have really been just the buffer? From testing, Intimidate did not grab aggro at all. If it was just the buffer, I would expect to still have the top threat for that monster.

[Ironforge_Clan]

Wow, thanks for that info Eladrin. So am I reading this correctly, that an intim and block will loose aggro at 12 secs (with 3 secs of cooldown left)?

If so, will their be changes to the SD to allow it to have a functional PRE and mele? Perhaps get a clickie like the Palli's 'Glorious Stand' to make up for the lost blocking AC and DR?

I would say could lose aggro but if you are willing to take a couple of swings and then turtle back up you should be fine. I would think with the 100% bonus, SD bonus, Levik's bonus, etc. it would only take one or two swings to maintain aggro during the cool down. Like anything we really won't know the true mechanic until we can test this.

[PresentTense]

Yes, thanks for the clarification. I understand the goal appears to be to make S&B a viable strategy, but what does this do to shield-blocking characters? Are we going to be able to maintain aggro without dealing damage?

[Coldin]

Wow, thanks for that info Eladrin. So am I reading this correctly, that an intim and block will loose aggro at 12 secs (with 3 secs of cooldown left)?

If so, will their be changes to the SD to allow it to have a functional PRE and mele? Perhaps get a clickie like the Palli's 'Glorious Stand' to make up for the lost blocking AC and DR?

You know, technically a Shield user could have Improved Shield Bash, and simply shield bash while intimidating. Then they would still keep their shield bonuses.


If it's simply the size modified Intimidate score, then I guess a Fighter with a 70 Intimidate will act as if they made an attack for 70 damage? Not sure if damage is really a 1:1 ratio to threat.

[Maegin]

It's called build variety.

Coming from someone who has created and played many builds over the last 5 years:

I have two "tanks". One is a DR/Blocking intim, the other is a hate-tank. I play and enjoy both because they have each their advantages and disadvantages. I have many, many other characters who are focused on DPS, and they do their jobs well, I really don't need "another DPS".

I don't agree with your comment. Why are you chastising people for wanting to make a build that isn't just DPS? Are people not allowed to make various other types of builds because the game allows them to do so? If turbine didn't want people to make these types of builds, then why have the entire set of enhancement lines with weighted toward blocking ?

As I've said earlier, if it is their intention to remove blocking from the game (or make it less used), then they really should go back and revisit the enhancement lines based on the new changes.

Ok. Um, batman builds. Evasion plate builds. Pajama exploiters. WoP Barbs. Fingerbang Sorcs. Charm Armys. Stunning builds. Dark FoD Monk Builds. (current) Heavy Pick Kensai's. etc. etc. etc.

All of these play off the games inherent errors, and are left behinde since they are built for the now instead of the long haul. The main point is to kill stuff. If you can't, someone else will have to come along and do it.

No offence to these builds, or building outside the box. I've never met a bard who "Diplomacied" the boss to death tho :P

Fighters, in the end, need to kill things. With DPS. Using a tool such as intimi, or shield blocking helps too, I agree. Key word tho, helps. Its like a bard who only buffs...

[quityourjobs]

You know, technically a Shield user could have Improved Shield Bash, and simply shield bash while intimidating. Then they would still keep their shield bonuses.


If it's simply the size modified Intimidate score, then I guess a Fighter with a 70 Intimidate will act as if they made an attack for 70 damage? Not sure if damage is really a 1:1 ratio to threat.

Yes, I would almost guarantee it is, as there is no smaller unit to have to base threat upon. I'd also wager that all spells cause at least 1 point of threat on a saving throw, which is how you can get TOD shadow aggro with effects like Glitterdust and Hypnotic pattern.

[Maegin]

I have enough DPS. My monster is dps. My assassin is dps. My KotC is dps. My intimitank is not dps, and he's not a standard build. I've had enough of building the same things all the time. So I built an 18 cleric / 2 paladin that will have an AC and an intim in the high 70s and an aura that will hit me for 69 hp on a normal tick and more than 150 on a crit. Sure, some people might not want to group with him, and his numbers are never going to be good enough for elite Horoth. But it's different, and it's fun. And self-healing against raid bosses amuses me.

Ah, okie. If amusement is all ya want, you can ride in the backpack, but when you want to get your hands dirty, jump on your dps and lets whoop some a$$!

[KannyaAryien]

I don't think you appreciate how drastic this change is. Its a bit like building a wizard to 20 and then being told that spells that target enemies no longer work and you will have to play as a buffer from now on.

Many characters are built primarily to intimidate enemies and hold their attention. In lamania this is frankly not possible any more. Its not less effective, its utterly ineffective.

It takes a lot of work and investment and pretty much flushes it. (Again, as its currently working.)

The voice of reason in this case is to acknowledge that it is currently non-functional and not a change we should have in the game under these conditions. If you don't play an intimidate based tank, you should probably reserve your judgement.

With respect for the podcast that you do, I will not respond in irritation. Please, go back and read my post again. I play an solely intimidate-based tank.

And I'm still not freaking out.