Intimidate Useless

[Nospheratus]

So in closing all I want to say is I don't like this change to intimidate because it takes away CHOICE the choice to tank things in the manner that you want.

Agreed!

At the moment you can chose to tank with hate+AC/hate or tank with intimi/intimi+DR. After this update intimi can't be used to tank by itself, even though it can help.

Hate tank is all there is left, be it a big barbarian or a defender PreC with hate boosting enhancements/equipment.

[PresentTense]

It may have already been said in the 25+ pages of this thread, but just in case, I want to voice my main concern explicitely:

This change really hurts intimi-based builds whose prirmary role is not to deal damage. I'm thinking here of bards/clerics/favored souls/wizards/sorcerers not built for melee. I realize such builds are not common, but they are possible to some extent in the current state of intimidate, while they become pointless if you can't hold aggro without dealing significant damage yourself. That's what I dislike most.

Yeah, to get back on topic a bit, I think this is the big point in this thread. In their effort to make S&B more useful for a bunch of gimpy fighters, a lot of creative builds that were out there are going to die. If the intimidate cooldown is longer than the intimidate duration, a lot of characters whose secondary ability to tanking was something other than DPS - whether it was crowd control, healing or spellcasting - are going to be facing lesser reincarnations. There's been some talk about damage over time spells being enough to fill the gap, but I'm going to be skeptical about that until I actually see it work, because I don't think the damage they do is going to be anywhere near enough to hold aggro against a surging kensai, fully raged barbarian, etc.

For those of you who might have missed my earlier post, I started a new thread about the AC/fort discussion at http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=309574. I've posted a couple explanations as to why this is an idea worth considering. See what you think. (Certainly not being critical - just trying to avoid too much topic forking in one thread. If you hate the idea, you're welcome to post that over there, too. After all, I've gotten several replies expressing a ... dislike of heavy fort not equating to 100 percent. )

[Zaodon]

I totally disagree that Heavy Fortification is "too easy". Its no easier than getting "+6 Stat" items, the pinnacle of stat improvement short of end game (where you can go as high as +10). And no easier than getting +5 armor and weapons. And no easier than getting superior potency 6 items. And so on, and so on, and so on.

And Fortification has little-to-nothing to do with this thread, which is about Intimidate and tanking. Again, get over this idea of linking AC to Fort. Its not required. AC != Fort. AC is AC, Fort is Fort. AC is a mechanic which determines whether or not you get hit. Fort is a magical affect which prevents hits from hitting your vitals. AC can be granted by Dex. How does that somehow translate to a higher Fort? Its nonsense. Just stop conflating the two mechanics - one has nothing whatsoever to do with the other.

This thread is about Intim and tanking. Up till now, you could intim-tank with no DPS. AC almost doesn't matter, so such tanks use DR in the form of shield blocking to absorb damage.

With the new model, this form of play is being punished/removed. You now MUST hate tank instead, and it doesn't work on groups of monsters if any sort of AOE effects are used. The effect of this nerf is the complete negation of any use of a shield, since it would have virtually no value to a player. And the trivial improvements in U9 to some shield feats are meaningless.

If intim is going to remain this new U9 way, then players now need something new for shield use to validate it as a choice. In "real life" and in PnP D&D, the concept of the shield is "less offense for more defense." In DDO, you have less offense, but no more defense due to the broken nature of AC at end game.

Therefore, the fix is to modify shield use in DDO to "give more defense" somehow. Either Fix AC (big task), or re-write shield use effects, granting far more AC, or DR, or AC + DR, or %damage reduction, or whatever. Remember, DPS doesn't get "good" until you take feats/enhancements to improve it (TWF/ITWF/GTWF or THF/ITWF/GTWF, plus improved crit, focus, specialization/greater specialization, Kensai, etc.) So, its ok if shield use doesn't get "good" until you take feats/enhancements. But we need better Feats (or make the current feats better), and *GASP* we need a set of Enhancements for shield use. Yes, that's right, Shield Enhancements. And good ones, not the puny Tower shield ones you have now. I mean some really good ones.

I posted some ideas here: http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=309763

[Coldin]

*snip*

The DMG is just a guidebook and isn't by any means the law when it comes to playing PnP. The DM however, is the law.

Anyway, I mostly agree. I don't think associating AC with fortification is a good idea. I don't think associating to-hit with fortification is a good idea. I especially don't think giving players 100% crit immunity is a good idea. Only some very special circumstances should grant that ability.

Which brings me back to my original idea. Adjust Fortification to reduce precision based damage by a percentage, instead of nullifying it completely. Some code would have to be introduced so criticals could never deal less than normal damage, but I think the devs could figure out something.

[grodon9999]

I love the ideas floating around, and that is the honest truth. We need to come up with something to take care of the AC issues.

http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php...ghlight=simple

I came up with this idea months ago. it expands the useful range of AC while keeping stuff D20.

[Seikojin]

I think the big bug here for intim is 1:1 damage to hate ratio.
If a melee is doing 200dps and a caster is doing 300 dps (averaging things out), then you have a small problem after you land intim.

Because at that point, your hate from the mob will be 450 (300+50%), then quickly it will drop to 300 (your 200+50%), and in thaat cooldown time for your skill, the caster will out dps your hate and get aggro again.

I think if they segregate hate for melee it may help balance it out again.
Like 1:2 for melee and even maybe 2:1 for spells. I know it seems extreme, but the dps of caster spikes dramatically, and the idea of intim strats is to keep hate in one spot even when the caster dings the mob with a high crit. Or at least be able to pull it off the caster. In the lam u9, if you are only doing 300 damage in a good hit, tack on 50% for intim, then the caster hits for 5k damage, nothing you do as a melee will get that hate back.

Or perhaps the 'equal to highest' portion of intim should linger.

[Sanadil]

We are supposed to get a new build for Lam today I believe. We should be able to get some concrete testing going on.

EDIT - Scratch that, they postponed until tomorrow.

[Lifespawn]

I think the big bug here for intim is 1:1 damage to hate ratio.
If a melee is doing 200dps and a caster is doing 300 dps (averaging things out), then you have a small problem after you land intim.

Because at that point, your hate from the mob will be 450 (300+50%), then quickly it will drop to 300 (your 200+50%), and in thaat cooldown time for your skill, the caster will out dps your hate and get aggro again.

I think if they segregate hate for melee it may help balance it out again.
Like 1:2 for melee and even maybe 2:1 for spells. I know it seems extreme, but the dps of caster spikes dramatically, and the idea of intim strats is to keep hate in one spot even when the caster dings the mob with a high crit. Or at least be able to pull it off the caster. In the lam u9, if you are only doing 300 damage in a good hit, tack on 50% for intim, then the caster hits for 5k damage, nothing you do as a melee will get that hate back.

Or perhaps the 'equal to highest' portion of intim should linger.

No thanks if they change spell damage to 2:1 i am royally screwed on my intimisorc

how about While a shield is equipped hate gen is 1:2 for all damage and it reverts to 1:1 when shield is not equipped this would allow the sword and boarders to generate extra hate with less dps and not allow the twf thf people to just intim with a shield and then switch to dps.

Tho the hate gen% would still be there for 12 seconds after an intim my above posted gives sword and boards a fighting chance to really hold aggro even from casters.

[Junts]

No thanks if they change spell damage to 2:1 i am royally screwed on my intimisorc

how about While a shield is equipped hate gen is 1:2 for all damage and it reverts to 1:1 when shield is not equipped this would allow the sword and boarders to generate extra hate with less dps and not allow the twf thf people to just intim with a shield and then switch to dps.

Tho the hate gen% would still be there for 12 seconds after an intim my above posted gives sword and boards a fighting chance to really hold aggro even from casters.

if you wear a shiel when you hit intim on your intimisorc, you will get a 100% threat bonus for a bit afterwords..

[Lifespawn]

if you wear a shiel when you hit intim on your intimisorc, you will get a 100% threat bonus for a bit afterwords..

oh i know that for 12 seconds i was just trying to come up with a way for someone to hold aggro against a caster as someone posted that concern.

[Thuriaz]

Sword and boarding against a large group of mobs you SHOULD be able to, assuming dwarf, spam out cleave, great cleave, whirlwind, two (or three) swings with a dwarven axe and another cleave and great cleave with the cool downs as is. Same SHOULD work with a bastard sword. True, it's a low power attack, but it SHOULD hold agro for those (5?) seconds AFTER your past the intimidates 10 seconds. Seriously, I know it's not great but it's not that bad, shields give a 100% bonus to threat, and if your stalwart defender your already generating 50% threat, I'd like to believe your also swinging from bell to bell (that is after intimidates) to gain threat also. Also shield bash will give 20% chance to hit on each regular attack, not a ton but still maybe just enough to help keep agro.


The problem we're looking at is in Pure DR tanking, however, maybe someone more experienced can help me out here but wouldn't that problem be solved by just giving the tank a little head start? Most MMO's I've played before DDO required the tank get a head start BEFORE people started nuking, and some restraint was used by the nukers so the tanks COULD MAINTAIN agro. I think the real problem we are looking at, given that all, is that there is no real damage reduction, defense, protection, or way of negating damage afforded to the tank..... sorta.

I think maybe we aren't looking at all the facts either, if your tanking you can BET a caster is putting displace on you (50%) your AC is at LEAST enough to negate 50% of the incoming hits (not that hard to build for honestly for MOST OF THE CONTENT) so your looking at about 25% of all incoming damage making it through (-6DR) and another 25% of that being negated soon by tower shields (or is that BEFORE all the other damage) so your probably taking in what... somewhere between 15 and 22% of all incoming damage, should make you fairly easy to heal for the cleric, should save the cleric on mana.

Honestly though, maybe they should have made the spell costs higher, if you want a tank to be valid there has to be a benefit to reducing the cost of healing "just that member of the party" and as is, it's almost the same cost to heal the whole party up, my thoughts on this.

Make mobs hit harder. No not just a little, I mean make them hit so hard that you WANT A TANK in the group. Make them hit with a force of damage of the power of a thousand exploding stars, make them hit so hard that the cleric INSISTS THAT THE TANK TANK, and that anyone who pulls agro is considered a problem for the group. That is the only way to make tanking USEFUL ENOUGH to outweigh the penalties.

Without that, people will just do what they can to draw agro because they KNOW they can handle it. Casters will do this especially, heck I run a caster or two and I'd not change my strategy unless I thought the incoming damage would be enough that I SHOULD hold back. We've reduced spell costs because "casters are casting too much and yet achieving too little" that's fine, now we see tanks becoming less and less valid, and the question arrises "With casters casting so much more, how will a tank hold agro?" well, I gave a way they might but it would require quite a bit more from the group for it to be beneficial, and there's no reason for it. Mobs are seriously underpowered, upper levels should start to show a defining difference in capabilities of classes. Instead classes all become "capable enough to take a few hits" which results in ANY class with a good cleric on board being able to take a few major impacts.

Wizards, pale masters to a lesser degree, should be terrified of taking on a major melee opponent in close range. Sorcerers likewise, clerics should be just a bit better off, and only fighters and barbs should want to be "Toe to toe" with the worst of the worst. As it stands right now anyone can, to a degree, tank the "trash mobs" who are nothing more than an annoyance between points A and B of any quest. There's no reason to have a tank, and honestly without a major shift in game mechanics there won't be.

That said, I have had a lot of fun on my tank, he's one of the many characters though who I'm currently reviewing for deletion. I liked the feeling of being able to take on a small army and KNOW they weren't getting through my defenses. Alas that time is about done, it's not a matter of the changes in the game, it's a matter of the changes that are NOT implemented. Increasing his DPS won't make him tank better, decreasing his threat when he's not on the offensive won't help much either, where he lacks is where all tanks lack, true, honest, REAL defensive capability built INTO the PRE. As it stand, if I get the very best gear, the best buffs, etc I should reach around an 81 - 84AC unboosted. However, what's the point? It's STILL quicker to just go in and slaughter the nameless trash, and with Epics taking a hit, it's gonna be that much easier (50% easier).

Remember, without risk there is no reason to negate risk. As long as casters are fairly safe from all but other casters, as long as melee can EASILY kill without risk to it's self, and as long as healers can easily keep all those doing this up, there is no reason for anyone to tank. It's those rare situations when higher DPS does not equate sufficient protection from incoming damage, when the healer can't keep a whole party up, and when casters have everything to fear from every enemy on the field that a tank actually has purpose.

You want to make tanks more viable? Make monsters hit harder, afford robe wearing users some form of penalty to critical hits, better yet build the mobs the way you build the players. If the mobs at Epic level were as dangerous as even level 18 Kensai Players then perhaps we'd need tanks.

[PresentTense]

Make mobs hit harder. No not just a little, I mean make them hit so hard that you WANT A TANK in the group. Make them hit with a force of damage of the power of a thousand exploding stars, make them hit so hard that the cleric INSISTS THAT THE TANK TANK, and that anyone who pulls agro is considered a problem for the group. That is the only way to make tanking USEFUL ENOUGH to outweigh the penalties.

Without that, people will just do what they can to draw agro because they KNOW they can handle it. Casters will do this especially, heck I run a caster or two and I'd not change my strategy unless I thought the incoming damage would be enough that I SHOULD hold back. We've reduced spell costs because "casters are casting too much and yet achieving too little" that's fine, now we see tanks becoming less and less valid, and the question arrises "With casters casting so much more, how will a tank hold agro?" well, I gave a way they might but it would require quite a bit more from the group for it to be beneficial, and there's no reason for it. Mobs are seriously underpowered, upper levels should start to show a defining difference in capabilities of classes. Instead classes all become "capable enough to take a few hits" which results in ANY class with a good cleric on board being able to take a few major impacts.

Wizards, pale masters to a lesser degree, should be terrified of taking on a major melee opponent in close range. Sorcerers likewise, clerics should be just a bit better off, and only fighters and barbs should want to be "Toe to toe" with the worst of the worst. As it stands right now anyone can, to a degree, tank the "trash mobs" who are nothing more than an annoyance between points A and B of any quest. There's no reason to have a tank, and honestly without a major shift in game mechanics there won't be.

That said, I have had a lot of fun on my tank, he's one of the many characters though who I'm currently reviewing for deletion. I liked the feeling of being able to take on a small army and KNOW they weren't getting through my defenses. Alas that time is about done, it's not a matter of the changes in the game, it's a matter of the changes that are NOT implemented. Increasing his DPS won't make him tank better, decreasing his threat when he's not on the offensive won't help much either, where he lacks is where all tanks lack, true, honest, REAL defensive capability built INTO the PRE. As it stand, if I get the very best gear, the best buffs, etc I should reach around an 81 - 84AC unboosted. However, what's the point? It's STILL quicker to just go in and slaughter the nameless trash, and with Epics taking a hit, it's gonna be that much easier (50% easier).

Remember, without risk there is no reason to negate risk. As long as casters are fairly safe from all but other casters, as long as melee can EASILY kill without risk to it's self, and as long as healers can easily keep all those doing this up, there is no reason for anyone to tank. It's those rare situations when higher DPS does not equate sufficient protection from incoming damage, when the healer can't keep a whole party up, and when casters have everything to fear from every enemy on the field that a tank actually has purpose.

You want to make tanks more viable? Make monsters hit harder, afford robe wearing users some form of penalty to critical hits, better yet build the mobs the way you build the players. If the mobs at Epic level were as dangerous as even level 18 Kensai Players then perhaps we'd need tanks.

I agree with this, and I think a good way to do it is to not make 100 percent fort a guaranteed quality for every character past level 11. But everyone is crying nerf in the other thread. In any case, without yet again getting this thread off track, I think this is a great explanation of what a tank could be in DDO - and what this change is taking it further away from being. But we have a new Lammania build tomorrow, and I'll be curious to see what the changes are like when they're WAI - and if the dev attention to this thread has earned us any changes at all to the release notes.

[Lycurgus]

Since we're making this intimidate thing much more "interesting," can we please have healing aggro? It would give Billy Bad### hate tank reason to get some healing amp and pay attention to damage mitigation.

[Coldin]

Should probably create a new thread...but looks like Intimidate is working as advertised now.

[Thoon]

Should probably create a new thread...but looks like Intimidate is working as advertised now.

Yes, the change went in with another and the release note did not reflect it. Often when release note items are entered by the dev team they are focused toward Live releases. I have to dig out those that relate to Lamannia, and this is one I missed. It will be added to the main release note list soon though.

[Cordovan]

Yes, the change went in with another and the release note did not reflect it. Often when release note items are entered by the dev team they are focused toward Live releases. I have to dig out those that relate to Lamannia, and this is one I missed. It will be added to the main release note list soon though.

Added!

[Sanadil]

New Thread Created:

http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=310199

This is to discuss the current version of intimidate on Lammania on 4/1/2011

Video again included, with a raid boss example.