Intimidate Useless

[Sanadil]

By default, damage is a 1:1 ratio to threat.

So my example above in blue showing my small buffer to be 198, is really just 198 points of damage. That's 1 swing from a barb, and 1 spell from a sorc, to pull the aggro back off you. Not sure how viable that's going to be, even with a S&B tank swinging away. You will eventually lose aggro before the next intim is up to the person that pulled it from you to begin with.

I'll quote myself so no searching is needed

So let me see if I have this right. First, an unknown is how threat modifiers really work. What I mean by that is we don't know what makes a +1 to the threat modifier. My assumption would be X amount of damage is equal to Y amount of threat modifier. Without knowing that, its tough to say exactly how long you will hold the monster after a successful intimidate.

In the OP video, my + was 66 on the die roll. That's after size modifications are taken into effect. So my small buffer would be (with a shield on) 2 * 66 = 132. Any extra melee threat % I'm wearing at the time, will increase that number by that percentage. So, if I have 50% extra threat on at the time of the intim, I'd get an extra 66 on top of that 132 for a total of 198 for my buffer.

Will 198 be enough of a buffer, without me doing any damage, to keep aggression over say a barbarian doing average 300-400 damage a swing for 15 seconds? Only time will tell unless we know exactly how much DPS = 1 Threat modification.

PS - This does mean I'm shelving my intimtank, and or re-rolling him to a hate tank, either way, he can't do what he was designed to anymore. You can say goodbye to all S&B Intim Tanks with that ratio, everyone pull out your THF weapons on raid bosses.

[sephiroth1084]

So is this a suedo acknowlegment that intim is broken and will be "fixed" before U9 goes live or just a random catch all statement in an attempt to assure us that everything is ok?

Pretty sure the other comments in this thread about the buffer being set to 0 by accident is a clear statement that intimidate is broken. Whether it will get fixed before this goes live is another story.

Personally, I don't see the point of re-working something that wasn't broke to begin with but what do i know I'm just the guy paying for it all, but anyway.

It was definitely not working in an especially interesting manner. Intimidate didn't work with DPS before, which was an issue, and tended to promote a very stagnant sort of gameplay that promoted the creation of characters that were rather useless in the majority of situations. This at least is dynamic and more interesting.

If this is what intim is going to be like (if it actually gets fixed) then the obvious questions remain.

1. How are DC's going to work? I.E. Is it the same 70DC for ToD elite with a bonus% based on your 70 intim , will it be the same 70DC with a bonus% based on any intim over 70, will intim DC's be re-worked as well, etc..... I can't imagine that DCs will get changed. Intimidate still has the aggro-grabbing effect it did, though is no longer a way to lock a target's attention, and grants other tools now. From what I gathered, your total intimidate will be counted as a melee hit for that amount of damage worth of threat that is subject to other hate-enhancing items and effects you may have. So, if you have 95% hate, and intimidate for 70, that should count as a hit of 136 damage. If the hate multiplier from a successful intimidate counts toward that, then that could be somewhere in the 200-275 range. That's basically a few hits from the party barbarian, or one crit. By itself it won't be enough to retain aggro if you aren't attacking, but the extra hate on your attacks should end up being more than enough even to steal aggro.

2. Since you will have to be DPS'ing as well as intiming to hold agro will SD and DoS get a re-work since this change renders the blocking DR and AC completly useless for any tanking duties? I don't think it will be completely useless. There are still some situations where intimiblocking will be useful. For instance, on the last boss of Epic Devil Assault while the party is clearing everything that spawns with him, you're likely better off hitting intimidate and blocking than attacking at that point. If players are dying around you it may be better to block as well. If you're in a weak ToD group that still wants to take Sulu down, you could hit an intimidate after everyone has broken off for Sulu and block with aggro (likely go make a sandwich with a brick on the block button) until they're done.

It just won't be the primary focus of the PrE for many players who have managed to ignore the other benefits. I will say, though, that it would be really good if the devs good make attaining some AC gear a little easier, as intimiblocking was a sort of filler for characters interested in tanking, but lacking the excessive gear required for hate tanking.

[Dragaer]

If your allies are attacking the monster, it'll be difficult to retain aggro while standing there shield-blocking, unless your DPS are taking some of the burden of threat management onto themselves. (Which we find desirable, by the way!)

So...the SD PRE is losing a big chunk of its tier III benefit?

[Coldin]

You would end up tied with the other player, and the monster would stick with their original target.

Try it against kobolds, and it'll work (though the buffer will still be much smaller than it should be).

That makes sense. I wasn't considering a tied threat would default to the current target.

Based on what I know now, some of the concerns about pure turtle tanking are legitimate. Though it also sounds like that is part of the point, to enable a more active form of tanking that involves going on the offensive...at least part of the time.

I'll need to think on this a bit, and see it in action.

[sephiroth1084]

You would end up tied with the other player, and the monster would stick with their original target.

Try it against kobolds, and it'll work (though the buffer will still be much smaller than it should be).


If your allies are attacking the monster, it'll be difficult to retain aggro while standing there shield-blocking, unless your DPS are taking some of the burden of threat management onto themselves. (Which we find desirable, by the way!)

If you intimidate a monster and people aren't attacking it, it will stay on you indefinitely now. (You're actually on top of the threat list instead of just being temporarily on top.) This could be useful in some situations.

If you intimidate a monster and then the former target uses diplomacy, your coordination will be paid off with a significantly larger threat buffer. DPS can also use Bluff to enable sneak attacks and reduce their personal threat contribution.

Odds are, however, that if you intimidate a monster and then attack while you have your threat multipliers active you'll have the best chance of holding the monster for an extended period of time.


By default, damage is a 1:1 ratio to threat.


Rarely, some monsters are scripted to occasionally select a second target for certain actions. Intimidate will not prevent these "off main target" attacks.

Thanks for the responses!

Isn't that Khyber's motto?

I thought it was "The hate rages on!"

So my example above in blue showing my small buffer to be 198, is really just 198 points of damage. That's 1 swing from a barb, and 1 spell from a sorc, to pull the aggro back off you. Not sure how viable that's going to be, even with a S&B tank swinging away. You will eventually lose aggro before the next intim is up to the person that pulled it from you to begin with.

Given that I can retain aggro in S&B mode now, and missing some gear that would help further, against any but the absolute most bonkers DPS out there (big DPS running around with Epic Claw sets are a little problematic, but only a little), I expect that gaining an extra 100% hate, even for a short period of time, will be more than enough to keep aggro.

Fighters could probably use some additional hate, though, as they are quite far behind paladins:
-50% vs. Divine Righteousness
-Big bursts of gooey hate that paladins get with smite and Divine Sacrifice
Paladins are ahead on semi-static damage enhancers as well with Divine Might and Divine Favor totaling somewhere from +5 to +11 vs. the fighter's +6 from feats and enhancements, though fighters have Haste Boost, which probably balances things out a little.

[grodon9999]

This all looks really good if it all works, but I've got a question for Eladrin or anyone else who can answer . . .

How do you envision tanking for future high-level and possibly epic raids? All this hate stuff is nice but if a Stalwart/DoS's AC doesn't benefit them in any way what's the point of using them over a barbarian or any other DPS-Ape?

[MrWizard]

Never understood those that plan thier entire character around using a skill, which on the drop of a dime, turbin could nerf. Shouldnt you plan your toon around DPS, and have intimi be a side boost? That way, your not d!cked if something goes wrong by putting all your eggs in one basket?

Sorry for de-rail. Enlighten me, please

no one plans a toon around a skill. I think you are missing the point or possibly trying to troll people a bit.

in fact, it is impossible to plan a toon around a skill.


One can however spend lots of time and ingame plat to craft items to help that skill....or to build/craft/buy items that help deal with what that skill offers (such as damage mitigation in the use of intim).

intim, and everyone with it as a class skill should use it, is much more than a 'shield block' thing...it keeps aggro off casters in firewalls, off clerics, off weaker party members, and so much more... it is a skill.


A tank built with high ac and dr, using intim is known as an intim-tank. In the case of a fighter it uses the stalwart defender. That prestige line reduces the speed of movement to a near crawl. Without intim that tank would not be able to fight anything in stance...thus the entire prestige line is useless and would have to be discontinued.


I would really suggest playing one once...grabbing 20 mobs and beating them to death...it is fun.

It would be a bummer to have wasted all that time and money on gear that would no longer be needed. Of course it would make you happy it seems.

[grodon9999]

no one plans a toon around a skill. I think you are missing the point or possibly trying to rib people a bit.

No, there are people who build absolutely zero-offense intimitanks who are absolutely useless in 99% of the content. If this change makes them worthless I don't have a problem with it.

What will suck is there are a few excellent intimitank FvS on my server who've just been relagated to healbot.

[PresentTense]

If your allies are attacking the monster, it'll be difficult to retain aggro while standing there shield-blocking, unless your DPS are taking some of the burden of threat management onto themselves. (Which we find desirable, by the way!)

If you intimidate a monster and people aren't attacking it, it will stay on you indefinitely now. (You're actually on top of the threat list instead of just being temporarily on top.) This could be useful in some situations.

If you intimidate a monster and then the former target uses diplomacy, your coordination will be paid off with a significantly larger threat buffer. DPS can also use Bluff to enable sneak attacks and reduce their personal threat contribution.

Odds are, however, that if you intimidate a monster and then attack while you have your threat multipliers active you'll have the best chance of holding the monster for an extended period of time.

Thanks for the direct reply, although I think this is going to be a tough pill to swallow for some tanks. While a lot have dps modes, there are also a lot that have level-ups in charisma and do not. I see this being an issue in quests such as VoD, where you have the whole party beating on one enemy whose aggro is held by a single player. And it's a big blow to the tanking PrEs. I foresee this not having the effect you want it to - S&B will still be unused, but now so to will turtle tanking. Hate tanks with some ranks in intim, even if it's not enough to be reliable, will rule.

[MrWizard]

Wow, thanks for that info Eladrin. So am I reading this correctly, that an intim and block will loose aggro at 12 secs (with 3 secs of cooldown left)?

If so, will their be changes to the SD to allow it to have a functional PRE and mele? Perhaps get a clickie like the Palli's 'Glorious Stand' to make up for the lost blocking AC and DR?

I think after 12 you could lose the aggro...

however, that 'buffer' based on your intim score is completely a vague and 'nothing' statement....

so...a buffer...that does what? Add to threat ? how? why? Double with a shield..double in what way?
is your intim a percentage threat? is it just damage added to your swing..? one swing?

the intimidate skill buffer is completely vague to me and I would think an actual explanation would suffice as to just what it means...

'buffer'....?

[Coldin]

What will suck is there are a few excellent intimitank FvS on my server who've just been relagated to healbot.

Why?

Summon Archon, Intimidate Monster, Hit Monster, Shield Block, Let Archon attack to keep aggro.

Edit: Add on a Divine Judgement for all that lovely light damage.

[Coldin]

I think after 12 you could lose the aggro...

however, that 'buffer' based on your intim score is completely a vague and 'nothing' statement....

so...a buffer...that does what? Add to threat ? how? why? Double with a shield..double in what way?
is your intim a percentage threat? is it just damage added to your swing..? one swing?

the intimidate skill buffer is completely vague to me and I would think an actual explanation would suffice as to just what it means...

'buffer'....?

Pretty much explained by Eladrin right here.

You buffer should be equal to your size modified intimidate score, multiplied by two if you're using a shield. This counts as "melee" threat, so effects that amplify melee threat apply.

[Whargoul]

Intimidating Presence
You have successfully used the intimidate skill, and gain a 50% bonus to the threat generated by your melee attacks, missile attacks, and spells, making monsters more likely to attack you for a short time. (6 seconds)

Intimidating Presence (Shield)
You have successfully used the intimidate skill, and gain a 100% bonus to the threat generated by your melee attacks, missile attacks, and spells, making monsters more likely to attack you for a short time. (12 seconds)

Suppose now if I equip a shield, then hit intimidate I get the (Shield) version. Then I can quickly switch back to TWF DPS mode and benefit from the 100% bonus to threat for 12 seconds. Or does the version of Intimidating Presence auto-adjust for swapping in and out of shield use post-intimidate?

It just seems messy and confusing, instead of simple and streamlined.

[Whargoul]

You buffer should be equal to your size modified intimidate score, multiplied by two if you're using a shield. This counts as "melee" threat, so effects that amplify melee threat apply.

I'm glad I didn't invest any time into making the perfect DR based shield-blocking intimitank. Phew, dodged that bullet.

Kinda sad though. Shield-blocking DR-focused intimitanks are not useful at all with these changes, and although I don't have one myself, I really like that they have a niche in the current game. Even if you made the buffer 10x modified intimidate score, there are many DPS focused builds that would crush through that buffer in 2-3 seconds, maybe less with a rapid string of crits. Perhaps a buffer of 100x modified intimidate score would help retain some kind of viability. Either way, the buffer needs to be significant!

If the objective of the intimidate change was to prevent people from shield blocking bosses while holding agro and not contributing directly to DPS, thus trashing some very interesting niche builds, then CONGRATULATIONS! Mission accomplished.

[sephiroth1084]

This all looks really good if it all works, but I've got a question for Eladrin or anyone else who can answer . . .

How do you envision tanking for future high-level and possibly epic raids? All this hate stuff is nice but if a Stalwart/DoS's AC doesn't benefit them in any way what's the point of using them over a barbarian or any other DPS-Ape?

Yes indeed. The to-hit values at endgame (read: epics especially) need serious revisions. And, again, some of the exclusive-to-one-class AC buffs (and to-hit, damage, save, etc... buffs) need to be spread around a bit. The difference between running ToD with and without a bard, currently, is whether I can use a 2-handed weapon to tank or whether I have to pull out a shield, because they provide 4 AC that cannot be acquired anywhere else. The difference between a Stalwart Defender's AC with and without a DoS paladin in the group is 6 points. I had hoped that Shintao monk would gain a weaker AC (and saves) aura that didn't stack with that of a paladin, but those hopes were dashed.

I still hope that the Purple Dragon Knight and Warpriest will provide some of the bard's benefits, like a weaker Inspire Courage for the same reasons.

No, there are people who build absolutely zero-offense intimitanks who are absolutely useless in 99% of the content. If this change makes them worthless I don't have a problem with it.

Agreed. I've been saying this for a long time, and people have argued with me about it. I don't want to gloat, because I can sympathize with a character becoming obsoleted by unforeseen game changes, but I did tell you so!

What will suck is there are a few excellent intimitank FvS on my server who've just been relagated to healbot.

Yeah, a friend and guildy of mine has an intimicleric who may need some drastic changes. I'm hoping that the new light spell + a little bit of focus on meleeing will help him retain his functionality.

Thanks for the direct reply, although I think this is going to be a tough pill to swallow for some tanks. While a lot have dps modes, there are also a lot that have level-ups in charisma and do not. I see this being an issue in quests such as VoD, where you have the whole party beating on one enemy whose aggro is held by a single player. And it's a big blow to the tanking PrEs. I foresee this not having the effect you want it to - S&B will still be unused, but now so to will turtle tanking. Hate tanks with some ranks in intim, even if it's not enough to be reliable, will rule.

I think the tanking PrEs will continue to function in the way they have been for those who have been making use of all the parts of their PrE rather than just one piece.

I agree that a non-PrE S&B character with intimidate is likely at least in the same region of hate, if not ahead due to higher DPS. For example, a KotC with intimidate could pick up a shield and spend 1 AP on Divine Righteousness and gain the same threat as a DoS, although they would be behind 7 AC or so.

Perhaps the defender PrEs could gain some further bonus to this new intimidate interaction? Or have their offensive stance bonuses improved a bit?

[PresentTense]

I'm glad I didn't invest any time into making the perfect DR based shield-blocking intimitank. Phew, dodged that bullet.

Kinda sad though. Shield-blocking DR-focused intimitanks are not useful at all with these changes, and although I don't have one myself, I really like that they have a niche in the current game. Even if you made the buffer 10x modified intimidate score, there are many DPS focused builds that would crush through that buffer in 2-3 seconds, maybe less with a rapid string of crits. Perhaps a buffer of 100x modified intimidate score would help retain some kind of viability. Either way, the buffer needs to be significant!

If the objective of the intimidate change was to prevent people from shield blocking bosses while holding agro and not contributing directly to DPS, thus trashing some very interesting niche builds, then CONGRATULATIONS! Mission accomplished.

Yeah, at least I can lesser out of this, since I haven't done much gear grinding yet. But I feel bad for the people who already did all the grinding for this. High AC/dr/intim shield blockers are some of the most gear-intensive builds in the game, and if that buffer isn't big enough to last 15 seconds, there are going to be some seriously miffed people.

Yeah, a friend and guildy of mine has an intimicleric who may need some drastic changes. I'm hoping that the new light spell + a little bit of focus on meleeing will help him retain his functionality

Yeah, that's my boat. Maybe radiant servant III can deal the aura's ticks as light damage to enemies or something.

[Junts]

Wow, thanks for that info Eladrin. So am I reading this correctly, that an intim and block will loose aggro at 12 secs (with 3 secs of cooldown left)?

If so, will their be changes to the SD to allow it to have a functional PRE and mele? Perhaps get a clickie like the Palli's 'Glorious Stand' to make up for the lost blocking AC and DR?

Do you realize how ineffective glorious stand is, or that stalwart defenders gain 2 more ac from their prestige than paladins do?

And stalwarts gain passive dr too.

[MrWizard]

No, there are people who build absolutely zero-offense intimitanks who are absolutely useless in 99% of the content. If this change makes them worthless I don't have a problem with it.

What will suck is there are a few excellent intimitank FvS on my server who've just been relagated to healbot.

true, there are people who do not build good toons. This is true of all class builds though. Those types with intim are lucky enough to add something to the party instead of the 'trap blowing rogue', the 'offensive one spell caster', the 10/10 cleric/sorc battle cleric, and the like.

Those types are usually called on it anyways, regardless of changes..they are just a fact.

It looks like you are assured an intim, with a shield, at 12 seconds. You have 3 seconds to go before a new intim. I wait about 1/2 second or so anyway..so 2 1/2.

it takes a 1/2 second for him to turn (raid boss)....so maybe two seconds you have to keep aggro above the normal dps.

should be interesting indeed to see how this works in reality.
Only having to intim something one time makes for awesomeness though (in the case of no one beating on it).

Horoth....all on sully, you on horoth...one intim and he stays...period. Stun, whatever, he stays. That is a cool thing.


As for those who talk of epic barb damage and such, I think at the point you are 'epic geared' you should be able to handle the boss aggro in any raid anyway. ANd most likely your party is epic geared (especially if a guild run).. In that case there is no need for a hate or intim tank, you should just surround him and take the boss down.
At that point this whole debate is moot.

For lesser non epic geared, still building shroud items, running with newer players, intim is very solid and a great help.

[Schmoe]

Isn't that Khyber's motto?

We have confirmation, Eladrin plays on Khyber

[sephiroth1084]

Do you realize how ineffective glorious stand is, or that stalwart defenders gain 2 more ac from their prestige than paladins do?

And stalwarts gain passive dr too.

And another 6 AC on top of that if a paladin with a full aura is standing nearby.