Intimidate Useless

[Zaodon]

I tell you what.

Just for you, I will transfer to Lamannia my paladin, with his 90 ac and his ability, with intimidate and divine righteousness, to keep aggro from Shade on a raidboss while using a shield.

There are such huge threat bonuses available that you can be a shield-using tank, use combat expertise, and still keep aggro from seirous dps, even serious dps who aren't using -threat gear. The ones using +threat gear are the most dicey, but still managable. A small dps increase is a huge threat increase wehn you get up to +235% bonus threat (think about that number again). You have to do about 30% of the other person's dps to do equal threat with that kind of threat bonus, and s/b does in fact do more than 30% of someone else's output.

So, you're admitting Intimidate doesn't have anything to do with it.

How does your post, then, rebut my claim that the changes to Intim are broken?

[grodon9999]

I tell you what.

Just for you, I will transfer to Lamannia my paladin, with his 90 ac and his ability, with intimidate and divine righteousness, to keep aggro from Shade on a raidboss while using a shield.

There are such huge threat bonuses available that you can be a shield-using tank, use combat expertise, and still keep aggro from seirous dps, even serious dps who aren't using -threat gear. The ones using +threat gear are the most dicey, but still managable. A small dps increase is a huge threat increase wehn you get up to +235% bonus threat (think about that number again). You have to do about 30% of the other person's dps to do equal threat with that kind of threat bonus, and s/b does in fact do more than 30% of someone else's output.

Can't you do this now without intim?

[Junts]

Hell forget 300 damage in 15 seconds... most any half decent DPS build is doing 300 every second (I'm honestly not sure if the Devs know this or not?)

that's 4500 damage in 15 seconds at the low range...

I can haz moar + hatez Plz mr Devleopards? Pliiiizzzzz? Must haz moar hate Gen, for to keep up wit da Khopeshez sir.

Even if you figure out how to do better DPS on a S&B build how am I getting the agro of a bunch of monsters and being a "tank", if I need to DPS each and every one of them, to keep their agro?

A tank that can only keep one mob on him, is just a low DPS toon that can still keep one mob on him...

Might was well drop intim, and go full DPS spec and leave Defender of Siberys and Stalwart defender on the rubbish heap with Deepwoods sniper PrE's....

Let me repeat: A tank that tanks ONE MOB and wont loose agro, is just a weak DPS build that can manage to keep one mobs agro... Until someone with good DPS comes over to help kill it.

An AC tank that only tanks Bosses, doesn't need AC because all the bosses hit our AC anyway... So whats the use of an AC/Tank focused Prestige class if the above two statements are true?

Once again: Eladrin please redesign the DoS and Stalwart prestige classes to be of some use after this change goes through.

You guys don't seem to understand how this is supposed to work.

You take a group of mobs. You intimidate, get the buff, and use your threat bonuses and target the main target.

Your intimidate gives you permanent threat with all the targets. Everything will stay on you. The party dpss the one you are building threat on, and the rest stay on you without further intimidating because no one is hitting them yet. When the first mob dies, you continue onto the next and the dps switch to the next.

If you want to be able to intimidate and let people hit 4 mobs at the same time instead of properly killing them one at a time, well, ddo just coded out your ****** play.

The buffer isn't intended to give you enoug hthreat to hold the mob until you intimidate again - its intended to give you enough threat to hold the mob until the intimidate animation ends!

You have to generate your own threat (with huge bonuses, 150% from stance and intimidate alone!) after that. If ytou can't hold aggro with a 150% threat bonus, try having more than 25 strength.

[Viking707]

I don't make a lot of post but this particular subject really bothers me. I do not like the changes Turbine is makeing to intimidate. I don't care if the cooldown is 6 seconds, 18 seconds or 60 seconds, if the duration of the effect is LOWER than the cooldown, it kills intimitanking - period!

Turbine, I do NOT like this. Please change it. Make the duration and cooldown the same.

[Junts]

Can't you do this now without intim?

I tend to need a 10second head start for the -very- highest dpsers out there (like say, Fantazmal). I suspect that I would need one (sans intimidate buff) for a DPS like Shade.

Give me another 100% threat bonus from intimidate and I dont need a head start from anyone ever. I probably won't use divine righteousness anymore, as 185% will be enough (right now I run 135% on live), and 235% would surely be overkill. I look forward to having more turn undeads for other stuff.

The advantage here is that you'll be able to do what I'm doing without having nearly every item in the game, especially without having the various threat-boosting sets which are quite hard (epic claw, defender sets as the rings are the rarest rings in tower) to acquire.

Right now, to threat tank with a shield you have to be about as well geared as the best person in your group. If you have roughly equivalent quality gear, you can keep up with a dps with existing threat bonuses. With this intimidate change, they can massively outgear you and you can still hold aggro. A freshly capped paladin with a holy sword and swashbuckler will be able to hold away from perfectly-geared dps characters.

In fact, in quests like VOD youll probably be able t build threat on the mob until its at 50% and then switch to the next monster because you'll be so far ahead on the first one that the party won't pull from you before the mob dies, and start building threat on the next target. This is how tanks play in other MMOs.

[Lifespawn]

And what sort of creature is going to try to attack a person cowering/hiding behind a shield that is just insulting it when others are doing serious damage to its backside?

It isn't like you are playing a Rune Keeper in Lotro where such scathing remarks actually kill.

I'm not advocating the change as it is coming, nor do any of us know how it actually works because it is bugged. But I do know that fixes are needed to the intimidate/diplo system because creature que for hate is NOT working correctly.

and what creature is going to watch you stab it in the back hit it over the head run it over with a truck then punch it in the face and when the person says(diplo) it wasn't me go back to attacking someone else?

[Junts]

Intimidate is dead!


Long live intimidate!

[Sanadil]

SNIP
Your intimidate gives you permanent threat with all the targets. Everything will stay on you. The party dpss the one you are building threat on, and the rest stay on you without further intimidating because no one is hitting them yet. When the first mob dies, you continue onto the next and the dps switch to the next.
SNIP

So what about AOE damage (Spells/Melee)? So the right way to play is to not use those when someone is using the new and "improved" intimidate? Please let me know what the right way to play is, I need to be educated with all the changes coming as my old style is obviously wrong.

[grodon9999]

Is it worth training and equipping though to save 10 seconds in a raid?

[grodon9999]

Intimidate is dead!


Long live intimidate!

Every time a valid tactic in this game dies God kills a kitten.

Like it or not, and I'm not the biggest fan of it myself, the intim+block method of aggro control was a valid option that's being removed from the game. That's not cause for celebration.

[Lifespawn]

You guys don't seem to understand how this is supposed to work.

You take a group of mobs. You intimidate, get the buff, and use your threat bonuses and target the main target.

Your intimidate gives you permanent threat with all the targets. Everything will stay on you. The party dpss the one you are building threat on, and the rest stay on you without further intimidating because no one is hitting them yet. When the first mob dies, you continue onto the next and the dps switch to the next.

If you want to be able to intimidate and let people hit 4 mobs at the same time instead of properly killing them one at a time, well, ddo just coded out your ****** play.

The buffer isn't intended to give you enoug hthreat to hold the mob until you intimidate again - its intended to give you enough threat to hold the mob until the intimidate animation ends!

You have to generate your own threat (with huge bonuses, 150% from stance and intimidate alone!) after that. If ytou can't hold aggro with a 150% threat bonus, try having more than 25 strength.

when mobs stop porting randomly jumping in front of people trying to stay on one target and resetting aggro you might have a point until then you don't.

[Junts]

So what about AOE damage (Spells/Melee)? So the right way to play is to not use those when someone is using the new and "improved" intimidate? Please let me know what the right way to play is, I need to be educated with all the changes coming as my old style is obviously wrong.

Remember each use of intimidate gives you threat equal to the highest presently on the mob plus a buffer. For example, you could have some air savant blast the vod orthons 2-3 times with chainlightning before you intimidate the first time - and then your threat on those mobs will be equal to his chains plus the buffer, or in other words, you'd have a comfortable edge over everyone who hasn't hit it yet.

The purpose of the 200-300 buffer is to make it so you don't lose the mobs to a glancing blow or a fog spell. If someone's going to blast chainlightnings into there, its probably not going to work any better than it would if you had 4 dps and they all attacked a different mob (which is already a bad strategy, as its better to kill one faster than kill 4 slower).

You have a lot of opportunity to -do- things after intimidating. Those things are the factor in how you hold aggro. I doubt guards alone will be enough to let people really spam hardcore aoe nukage, but that's actually rarely a factor in a quest that requires 'tanking'.

[Zaodon]

So what about AOE damage (Spells/Melee)? So the right way to play is to not use those when someone is using the new and "improved" intimidate? Please let me know what the right way to play is, I need to be educated with all the changes coming as my old style is obviously wrong.

Exactly. With the new way:

- You cannot Mass Hold (generates threat, pulls mobs away from the "new intim")
- You cannot Web, Solid Fog, Acid Cloud, Cloudkill, Hypnotize, Fascinate, or any other spell which would gain you some hate.
- You cannot Wall of Fire, Ice Storm, Meteor Swarm, Arcane Blast, or any other AOE Damage either.
- You cannot use Two-handed weapons, or Dwarf Axe/Bastard Sword with a shield, as the splash damage will wreck the "new intim".
- You cannot use Mass Heal or other mass cure spells when there are lots of intim-able undead, because you'll be generating too much hate for the "new intim"

Basically, Junts plays in a make-pretend version of DDO where all players share a hive mind, and act perfectly at all times, allowing the "new intim" to always work properly with groups of mobs.

[Tirisha]

I tend to need a 10second head start for the -very- highest dpsers out there (like say, Fantazmal). I suspect that I would need one (sans intimidate buff) for a DPS like Shade.

Give me another 100% threat bonus from intimidate and I dont need a head start from anyone ever. I probably won't use divine righteousness anymore, as 185% will be enough (right now I run 135% on live), and 235% would surely be overkill. I look forward to having more turn undeads for other stuff.

The advantage here is that you'll be able to do what I'm doing without having nearly every item in the game, especially without having the various threat-boosting sets which are quite hard (epic claw, defender sets as the rings are the rarest rings in tower) to acquire.

Right now, to threat tank with a shield you have to be about as well geared as the best person in your group. If you have roughly equivalent quality gear, you can keep up with a dps with existing threat bonuses. With this intimidate change, they can massively outgear you and you can still hold aggro. A freshly capped paladin with a holy sword and swashbuckler will be able to hold away from perfectly-geared dps characters.

In fact, in quests like VOD youll probably be able t build threat on the mob until its at 50% and then switch to the next monster because you'll be so far ahead on the first one that the party won't pull from you before the mob dies, and start building threat on the next target. This is how tanks play in other MMOs.

I don't see how making hate tanking soo much easier improves the game in any fashion. People should have to be geared and well built too tank and the DPS should have to have hate mitigation if their DPS is so ******** that they can pull aggro from a well geared hate tank. This just takes the thinking out of hate tanking and invalidates the only other form of tanking. Were is the positive side? Aside from you being able to hold aggro without a lead in?

Edit:
In regards to hate tanking a crowd. even if the party was coordinated enough to attack the "main target" if any of the dps are THFs intim will only allow you too hold the main target.

[Junts]

when mobs stop porting randomly jumping in front of people trying to stay on one target and resetting aggro you might have a point until then you don't.

What are you talking about, vod orthons? Mobs so easy that anyone can tank them with displacement, even on elite?

That's not exactly a major factor in a tank's job.

[Missing_Minds]

and what creature is going to watch you stab it in the back hit it over the head run it over with a truck then punch it in the face and when the person says(diplo) it wasn't me go back to attacking someone else?

The same int 6 that was attacking the city full of adventurers? And if you are doing it right they never see you. The second you turn, you hide behind someone else that still has their weapon out and you cower.

The way diplo works in this game you might as well call it bluff as in real life you could convince them to possibly walk away. Diplo... bribes work wonders afterall. (then of course you kill it from behind and retake your money.)

[Lifespawn]

The same int 6 that was attacking the city full of adventurers? And if you are doing it right they never see you. The second you turn, you hide behind someone else that still has their weapon out and you cower.

The way diplo works in this game you might as well call it bluff as in real life you could convince them to possibly walk away. Diplo... bribes work wonders afterall. (then of course you kill it from behind and retake your money.)

i didn't bring up the int argument because lets face it a lot of mobs have more int just going along with your absurd line of thinking about a person cowering behind a shield.


In that same line of thought +hate gear shouldn't work just because your pretending to do more dps doesn't mean you actually are.

[Jendrak]

You guys don't seem to understand how this is supposed to work.

You take a group of mobs. You intimidate, get the buff, and use your threat bonuses and target the main target.

Your intimidate gives you permanent threat with all the targets. Everything will stay on you. The party dpss the one you are building threat on, and the rest stay on you without further intimidating because no one is hitting them yet. When the first mob dies, you continue onto the next and the dps switch to the next.

If you want to be able to intimidate and let people hit 4 mobs at the same time instead of properly killing them one at a time, well, ddo just coded out your ****** play.

The buffer isn't intended to give you enoug hthreat to hold the mob until you intimidate again - its intended to give you enough threat to hold the mob until the intimidate animation ends!

You have to generate your own threat (with huge bonuses, 150% from stance and intimidate alone!) after that. If ytou can't hold aggro with a 150% threat bonus, try having more than 25 strength.

ROFL!!!!

Sorry man but your talking about the same group of people who after 5 years still dont understand the concept of "Dont hit the fascinated/hypnoed/etc...mobs".

Love the wishful thinking i truely do, but if your expecting anyone else to care about you threat it just dont think its gonna happen out side of guild only runs.

[Lifespawn]

What are you talking about, vod orthons? Mobs so easy that anyone can tank them with displacement, even on elite?

That's not exactly a major factor in a tank's job.

orthons devils some bosses like sully stuff in EDA and Epic chrono you know some of the harder epics.

[Junts]

I don't see how making hate tanking soo much easier improves the game in any fashion. People should have to be geared and well built too tank and the DPS should have to have hate mitigation if their DPS is so ******** that they can pull aggro from a well geared hate tank. This just takes the thinking out of hate tanking and invalidates the only other form of tanking. Were is the positive side? Aside from you being able to hold aggro without a lead in?

I can already do that. The people who benefit aren't just the lesser geared, though.

My character is built in part to optimize sword and board dps (this sounds silly, but bear with me). I have Khopesh, paladin capstone, and make sure to build all the dps gear available to me into my ac setup (eg claw set, etc) in order to maximize my base damage before the threat bonuses. This allows my character to threat tank with the present threat modifiers, but only barely and with a lot of my character expended on boosting threat in a style i use for one fight in the entire game (elite horoth).

This change isn't to heop me. It will primarily help people who want to make a truly defensive oriented paladin - one that foregoes khopesh and power attack for shield mastery's damage reduction, for more intimidate feats to go above my measly 69 intimidate, etc. Those characters, right now, have no prayer of holding aggro even with the bonuses. But they will be able to find a way to do that with this intimidate buff. This is the new generation of pointless, no-offense intimtank: you can make a threat tank with no offensive ability, and focus allyour feats on defensive abilities, and they even gave you more defensive feats (like shield mastery) to help you do that.

I won't be taking shield mastery because I do a lot of my tanking with a sword of shadow (84 ac in ce with the sword) so its just not a big enough help for me. But someone out there is gonna make a turtle build for it, and for improved shield bash, and a paladin using a silver epic chimaera's fang with all 3 denieth dragonmarks, and his dps is going to be abominable, but he will still be able to hold aggro, and right now, he couldn't do that.


Also, fighters will be able to shield tank, which they presently can't do very well because they don't have enoug hthreat modifier available. paladins have 50% extra, in addition to having better s/b dps in general. Fighters needed this help a lot more, as threat-tanking, shield-using fighters are basically nonexistent right now. Fighter threat tanks are twfing with mediumm-high ac, not fortresses. Those huge-ac builds are intimiblockers because they have no prayer of holding aggro with a weapon.

Now they do. Now a lot of my dps is overkill except for the fact that its great when I run epics with my SoS, becuase its not needed to tank.

That's a good thing, because I'm spending alot of feats on it on a feat-starved class that don't make a lot of sense with an objective of 'tanking'.