Noob thinks 32 point builds should be for all.

[TheGreatEye]

Double post.

[Fenrisulven6]

The idea of giving 28pt characters a +1 ability raise upon reaching 1750 would sufficiently address the issue. Why not get behind that idea?

Not interested.

1) although chasing the 32 unlock is not about raising stat points for me, the +1 is not enough. Yes, it equates to a 32pt build IF you were going to throw those 4 points into your primary stat, but would short those who might prefer splitting those 4 points to bump up secondary stats, ie. 2 to Con and 2 to Cha, raising a pair of 12s to 14.

2) Doesn't address my issue with the current system: leads new players to the favor-zerg path where they get stuck riding their 1st misbuilt toon [because they don't want to sacrifice all the favor they've been earning to unlock 32s], get frustrated with the way the game appears to them, and quit playing.

But I appreciate you floating the idea.

[SableShadow]

1) the argument should be about the pro's and con's of making a change versus Turbine's subscriptions numbers..

Agreed.

3) From my experiences of TALKING to a lot of new players, it seems the system is more a turn off then turn on, if you see it otherwise plainly state it, but saying it's in some people's heads, or they shouldn't play then, or saying if you do A) they will want B and C and D.. is silly. An arguement like "well, yeah it might turn off the new player, but it keeps more old players, and here is why" well, that is productive..Saying, i hate you and want to toss insults cause i got nothing better to add, is ridiculous

The system turned off players when it first came out, too...we grumbled, but did it anyway.

[Deadz]

Given that typically Mods have been comming out at a rate of one every 3 to 6 months, that is a fairly significant timeframe to be grinding in. You could max your favor in that time with little or no effort. Gaining favor in this game is very easy. You could probably do it in a month's worth of weekend play with the right group pounding out the quests.

---- i solo more then anything else, so not really.. it's nice to think some people can, i have way to many responsiblities, i been playing this toon two months already.---

They put the point build upgrade into the Favor reward system to make grinding more attractive and provide something other than House equipment, buffs, unique items. That's why it's there.

-- understood, but it more unattractive the attractive when it comes to the first run through to the majority of people i've talked to in forums and games.

Oh and 32 point builds ARE NOT STANDARD. I shouldn't have to keep repeating myself on this. Pick up a 3.5 DMG and read it before opening your mouth and making a comment on something you haven't researched.
-- again this is DDO, enchancements part of 3.5?

32 pt builds are for high powered games. It states so in the OPTIONAL point buy system in the 3.5 DMG.
-- *sigh* using the dmg is rediculous..

The standard is 28pt builds. The point buy system is not in the 3.5 PHB. Stats are typically generated by Die rolls in PnP and not point buys.
--Contradictory statements nice!

Point buy system is used mainly in Living Campaigns run by the RPGA and are a standard for those campaigns ONLY. The point buy system provides a fair system of generating stats considering Die rolls are so arbitrary. It provides a level of game balance to the mechanics of the game.

I haven't looked up 4.0 rules yet so I don't know what the point buy system is like there or if anything has changed at all. But DDO is based on 3.5 D and D rules and that's the decision they made when developing the game.

you really don't know what decisions they made, the idea is based off "k everyone is done with the game quickly, what do we do to get them to keep play, i got it, 32point builds!!

now a few years later, their is alot more content, and the MAJORITY of players have them.. what's the point it making people get hazed, as new players feel they are.. hense we just got a NPE (abit bugged but still got one) it's incoming subscriptions that are going to improve your game (see more money)..

[shores11]

"We had a newcomer in our guild lately and we rushed him through catacombs elite and other such quests to bring him to 400 favor, and then told him to create himself a nice drow character, and suggested he play him to 1750 favor. It was not difficult at all to do, but as I was helping rushing him to 400 favor, all I could think was how lame was the game to push people to give newcomers such a rushed and uninspired first glimpse of adventure."

Consider, this is your first experience with DDO:

"the need to finish out 1750 favor so I could start rolling up new toons resulted in many zerg groups with new players like me just trying to keep up and not take a wrong turn [which usually resulted in death]. Sometimes we banded together - 3 of us trying to figure out the map [The Pit, ughhh] while the rest of the party fought monsters and had fun. Each quest was a flash of broken crates and open portals as I rushed to catch up. Hardly learned anything about the quests or the DDO mechanics along the way."

As a new player, would you have been more likely or less likely to stick around?

Problems with your post:

If a guild is rushing (zerging) a new player through quests just to get 400 favor so he could have his first 32 point build as a Drow then that guild is doing a great dis-service to that player. The problem with is that the player chose the wrong guild to join unfortunately as I know many guilds and people that would have (including me) taken the timeto have him experience the quests. This is not the games fault it is the players that are putting so much emphasis on 32 point builds and telling players that have 28 point builds your nerfed and can not contribute to a party. This is a down right lie and should stop as you are more to blame for players quitting than the game or anything else.

The zerg groups you joined, again had nothing to do with 32 point builds as a growing trend unfortunately of players that already are 32 point builds zerg all most all of the time. I personally drop from these groups and if I can not find a group I like I put up an LFM that says no zergers please and usually fill up pretty fast.

I agree with you on zerging, I hate it as for me that is not what I play the game for. I play the game for one reason only and that is the fact that for the most part DDO is a quest based game and I enjoy the quest and interaction of a good questing (non-zerging) party. Loot, favor and XP will come thats why I still play on 3 - 28 point build characters as I do not want to reroll them just for a 32 point build. In fact I have capped many 32 point builds and rerolled them several times.

[Freeman]

... a character that is of equal starting standing.

...the fact that no matter what you do you'll always be second fiddle even if you have the same user skill and same gear.

The fallacy with this argument is that it assumes all existing players have nothing but 32pt builds. The majority of people still have 28pt build characters they play regularly. Allowing this change would not give new players "equal starting standing". It would actually give them an advantage over existing players that didn't have that option originally. That's why I said it would not be a fair change unless there was a method to upgrade existing characters as well.

It is simply a matter of opinion and perception. Allowing new players to make 32pt builds would not alter the perception many have that they are not as powerful as veterans, simply because there are numerous other causes for the imbalance, including tomes and equipment(The largest and most visible difference). As I stated earlier, the only person that can tell if a character is a 28 or 32 pt build is the player. No one else will know or care. Changing this would not stop the zerging, power-leveling, or favor grind, since there would likely be some other reward in its place.

I have no issue with opening up 32pt builds for everyone other than the one I raised before. I just disagree with some of the arguments being presented to support the idea. If having to unlock 32pt builds is turning away a significant portion of players, then it should be changed to ensure the growth of the population. The grind is not required. Zerging is not required. Being power-leveled is not required. Those are all things that players individually can choose either to participate in or not. They are not reasons to change a system, particularly when that system isn't the actual cause of the said problems.(Zerging and power-leveling will happen regardless of favor rewards)

[Fenrisulven6]

Maybe the reason people are ignoring this argument is that we're talking about DDO here, not Living Greyhawk, etc. In DDO, it is common for 2nd level characters to have +2 items, and 8th level characters to have +5 items. Higher level characters have complete stes of "power 10" weapons (vorpals/banishers/etc.). Casters can routinely do triple digit damage, healers can heal almost that much. DDO is a high powered campaign. Period.

That, and the fact that if you wanted to roll only 28s after unlocking 1750, you can't. So its not optional.

[SableShadow]

Not interested.

1) although chasing the 32 unlock is not about raising stat points for me, the +1 is not enough. Yes, it equates to a 32pt build IF you were going to throw those 4 points into your primary stat, but would short those who might prefer splitting those 4 points to bump up secondary stats, ie. 2 to Con and 2 to Cha, raising a pair of 12s to 14.

2) Doesn't address my issue with the current system: leads new players to the favor-zerg path where they get stuck riding their 1st misbuilt toon [because they don't want to sacrifice all the favor they've been earning to unlock 32s], get frustrated with the way the game appears to them, and quit playing.

But I appreciate you floating the idea.

Actually, I think Krud is proposing move the 32s to start, and tweak existing 28s with a favor reward, since unlocking 32s at 1750 would be irrelevant. A +1 is certainly easier to implement than a re-roll as 32s option.

[Freeman]

2) Doesn't address my issue with the current system: leads new players to the favor-zerg path where they get stuck riding their 1st misbuilt toon [because they don't want to sacrifice all the favor they've been earning to unlock 32s], get frustrated with the way the game appears to them, and quit playing

There is no favor-zerg path. Zerging is a playstyle that will happen regardless of favor, difficulty, reward, level, or any other variable. Why do you think it will disappear if the favor is not required?

[Zenako]

Time to chime in on another point I see some raise.

I have NEVER seen a new player "hazed" for only having a 28 point build. Maybe it is the people I play with, the groups I join, or the server I am on, but I do not see it. I do see on occasion some veterans with multiple capped toons and favor out the wazoo get ribbed at times by minmax friends, but those are not new players. It is possible that if a new player was in the group, they might internalize that and misplace the ribbing and construe it as including them, but knowing those players as I do, I KNOW this is not the case.

And since some of those players are always trying new builds they running lowbies thry content fairly often, and I join them with some of my uber slow leveling dudes. Taken some of them 2 years to hit level 6 (partly on purpose, partly because there are only so many hours in the day I can spend in game.)

Now could it be happening, pretty sure it could. I have encountered enough self centered bleeps along the years to know it could. Does it happen often, probably not, but I suppose I would grant that once might be enough to give some a complex about the issue. Just like a jerk telling a cleric they suck once, might be enough to turn someone off playing a cleric ever again. Is it rationale, nope, but the emo response cannot be ignored.

[Deadz]

Time to chime in on another point I see some raise.

I have NEVER seen a new player "hazed" for only having a 28 point build. Maybe it is the people I play with, the groups I join, or the server I am on, but I do not see it. I do see on occasion some veterans with multiple capped toons and favor out the wazoo get ribbed at times by minmax friends, but those are not new players. It is possible that if a new player was in the group, they might internalize that and misplace the ribbing and construe it as including them, but knowing those players as I do, I KNOW this is not the case.



And since some of those players are always trying new builds they running lowbies thry content fairly often, and I join them with some of my uber slow leveling dudes. Taken some of them 2 years to hit level 6 (partly on purpose, partly because there are only so many hours in the day I can spend in game.)

Now could it be happening, pretty cure it could. I have encountered enough self centered bleeps along the years to know it could. Does it happen often, probably not, but I suppose I would grant that once might be enough to give some a complex about the issue. Just like a jerk telling a cleric they suck once, might be enough to turn someone off playing a cleric ever again. Is it rationale, nope, but the emo response cannot be ignored.

--Zenako, i think the "hazing " remark is having to do the grind in the first place, one poster alluded to the fact he felt like it was a form of hazing.

[darkrhavyn]

Since you demanded proof from me, I'm sure you're able to present proof of that...?



The fact that Turbine felt a need to create the service proves that a significant portion of the vet population was willing to pay money to NOT play 28s again.

Which discredits the argument that vets see no real diff between 28s and 32s.

Do you dispute that vets are paying cash to not play 28s?

Actually I have transferred a couple of characters to new servers and it was NEVER to open up 32 pt builds...it was because I had made friends on another server and wanted to play with their high level characters....or in one case because I didnt want to delete any of my 28 point characters to make room to try a new build out....thus, I moved a character I didnt play much (cause it was a melee and i really dont usually like to play melees) to make room for a bard I thought would be more fun.

[SableShadow]

--Zenako, i think the "hazing " remark is having to do the grind in the first place, one poster alluded to the fact he felt like it was a form of hazing.

Well...then the game itself is a form of hazing.

I've certainly heard people in the Sub say things like "dude, silverflame necklace, get one" fairly often. "re-roll as a 32 pt halfling strength build, yah gimp" is something I've never heard, outside of people teasing me over my build.

[Fenrisulven6]

that guild is doing a great dis-service to that player.

Yes/no/maybe...irrelevant. My point is, right or wrong, that is what the 32 unlock trends towards - encouraging new players to favor-level as quickly as they can so they can reach the "starting line" and build their stable of characters.

I agree with you on zerging, I hate it as for me that is not what I play the game for.

Then you can appreciate how this trend would frustrate new players who don't know any better and make them more likely to quit.

[shores11]

you really don't know what decisions they made, the idea is based off "k everyone is done with the game quickly, what do we do to get them to keep play, i got it, 32point builds!!

now a few years later, their is alot more content, and the MAJORITY of players have them.. what's the point it making people get hazed, as new players feel they are.. hense we just got a NPE (abit bugged but still got one) it's incoming subscriptions that are going to improve your game (see more money)..

Concerning what I highlighted: The better way to phrase it would be maybe I got hazed and I might have seen 1 or 2 others get hazed. This is a bogus argument I am playing on a server for the first time with a 28 point build (so I am a brand new player on this server) and I never get hazed and I am always in a group and contributing very well or even better than some of the 32 point builds.

Stretch the real facts very very very much to make your point is how you and a few others are writing in this thread. To hear you few folks tell it your about to walk out of the game because you feel so oppressed and harrassed about not having a 32 point build. I have played for over 3 years and have been in so many groups on 4 different servers there is no way to count them all yet have never ever heard not even one time a player or group haze or even bring up are you a 28 pont build or a 32 point build. Although I can not in anyway ever say it is not happening but if it is it can not be to any great extent.

I have also played a few other MMO's and when I decided I did not like WoW and what it was doing I left the game and canceled my subscribtion and have not been back since. What I did not do was whine about something that the majority of the players feel is a good system and should not be changed.

[Fenrisulven6]

I have NEVER seen a new player "hazed" for only having a 28 point build. Maybe it is the people I play with, the groups I join, or the server I am on, but I do not see it.

I think it was meant more like "initiation" re arguments here against opening up 32s to all, ie. "we had to walk 3 miles uphill in the snow barefoot to get to Goodblade, so should you"

[Deadz]

The Hazing phrase, a previous poster said running through favor to unlock 32 point builds felt like a form of hazing to the new player, Noone is actually hazing me.

[Deadz]

Concerning what I highlighted: The better way to phrase it would be maybe I got hazed and I might have seen 1 or 2 others get hazed. This is a bogus argument I am playing on a server for the first time with a 28 point build (so I am a brand new player on this server) and I never get hazed and I am always in a group and contributing very well or even better than some of the 32 point builds.

Stretch the real facts very very very much to make your point is how you and a few others are writing in this thread. To hear you few folks tell it your about to walk out of the game because you feel so oppressed and harrassed about not having a 32 point build. I have played for over 3 years and have been in so many groups on 4 different servers there is no way to count them all yet have never ever heard not even one time a player or group haze or even bring up are you a 28 pont build or a 32 point build. Although I can not in anyway ever say it is not happening but if it is it can not be to any great extent.

I have also played a few other MMO's and when I decided I did not like WoW and what it was doing I left the game and canceled my subscribtion and have not been back since. What I did not do was whine about something that the majority of the players feel is a good system and should not be changed.

Noone is actually getting hazed.. let me find the quote

[shores11]

The Hazing phrase, a previous poster said running through favor to unlock 32 point builds felt like a form of hazing to the new player, Noone is actually hazing me.

Then that is just BS on that players part, that is not hazing. If some players want to play that way that is their choice. If you do not want to play that way join another group.

I feel hazed then because an LFM is up to run Tangleroot but I want them to run Gwylan's Stand. Dang it Turbine you are creating an atmoshpere for me to be hazed.

[Deadz]

and the people advocating for it to stay want to keep it as hazing mechanism because they did it too.

That's all i ment.. sorry if my statement was confusing.