Noob thinks 32 point builds should be for all.

[shores11]

I hate to be the naysayer and I'm sure it's been brought up before. This is comming from someone who's been playing the game since pre-release over 3 years ago.

The amount of time playing this game should mean something. Eventually the Favor you earn should unlock things that aren't readily available when first starting out. Drow isn't a core DandD race and therefore should not be available right away. Drow isn't even in the DMG as an expanded racial selection. They're in the MM and other DandD books. Half Orcs and Half Elves are core races in DandD 3.5, Monks are a core class in the PHB. They've implemented prestige classes with the various enhancements that you can buy. That is why the Drow and other things aren't readily available when first starting.

/signed

[Deadz]

O.k., Shores, i have a question directly asking you:

How exactly does a change like this negatively effect you personally?

I don't at all mean this to be wise, instead of continuing to argue my point, i'd like to understand the other side of the coin, which i have seen very little examples of this statement.

Instead of "why new players shouldn't get it" i'd like to know "how it hurts vets"?

[shores11]

Well, that's not quite apples-to-apples either, is it? Here, I'll take your example and try to make it more analogous:

A new person starts working at a company where all the employees are using computers. The new employee is given a pad of paper and a pencil and told that when he reaches productivity level X, he can have a computer as well, although at that point he will have to redo all of his work over again, just to remain on par with his peers. Now, no one uses pencils and paper at this company anymore, but when they started, the company didn't have computers, so at one time they all had to use pencils and paper. Since they had to do that when they started out, they now make any new employees do the same... despite it being bad for the business.

Bad analogy, enough said...

[RazorrX]

So what you are saying is you have nothing constuctive to add? I get it...

Cool.

The fact that people whine and complain because of what others worked for and earned in no way means that Turbine should dumb down the game and give them what others have for 'free'. I have sweat / time equity invested in my 32 point builds along what that fee that they pay. I have sweat/time equity invested in what gear I have, what skill (if any) I have, etc.

Once they get 32 point builds the next thing to complain about is gear, so I just went ahead and added that for you to ask for as well. I was unhappy at how Korthos island gave glowy weapons away right away. One of my best memories was when I pulled the acid touched sword (1 pt acid) in the harbor. Now characters have one in 10 min of playing. It took me a long time to pull my first one.

I have had friends come to the game and they ended up wanting drow or 32 pt build. What did I do? I helped them get them. I rolled new characters to help them get drow, then again to help them build the drow up.

I helped them earn it, the way it should be.

[Strakeln]

My point is this I was a new player at some point and found that the current favor system including the 32 point builds was a great idea and still do.

I don't disagree. I think my overall point here is that no current players get hosed by <somehow> changing the 1750 system, even if it's just a change to make it apply to the character that earns it.

In other words, for each of the following situations, how does it hurt you?:
1) If Turbine made 32-point builds available at start
2) If Turbine made 1750 retroactive to the char that earns it
3) If Turbine made 1750 apply only to the character that earned it?

Interestingly enough, folks on your side of the fence seem to be more friendly towards options 2 or 3, which DO effect current players... but seem to be strongly against #1. This makes little sense to me, but on the other hand, so does the argument of "if I had to do it, so should they".

[Strakeln]

Bad analogy, enough said...

I disagree. I think I nailed the situation there pretty well.

Just because a situation is technically "fair" doesn't make it a wise business decision. Most - if not all - for-profit businesses are based on revenue growth, not revenue stagnation.

[Deadz]

The amount of time playing this game should mean something.

I understand, in fact, all you have in this game is earned through how much you play and luck.. that's how mmo's work, skill is very little of the equation to what you get. We all know players who we "think" stink at the game who are greatly equipt and have finished all the content, cause they have time on there hands..

on the other hand, i will challange you to answer the same question as shores.. how would this negatively impact you?

[shores11]

O.k., Shores, i have a question directly asking you:

How exactly does a change like this negatively effect you personally?

I don't at all mean this to be wise, instead of continuing to argue my point, i'd like to understand the other side of the coin, which i have seen very little examples of this statement.

Instead of "why new players shouldn't get it" i'd like to know "how it hurts vets"?

This does not affect me personally at all and I could care less about how it hurts veteran players. However my point is simply this after all I was a new player once myself:

I personally feel that achieving something like certain levels of favor should unlock various aspects of the game that can only be achieved by gaining enough of that favor to do so.

• I like unlocking Drow (although I prefer not to play one) for your account at 400 favor.
• I like unlocking bank slots for your character when you earn favor in House K.
• I like unlocking 32 point builds for your account when you reach 1750 favor.

This is not about hurting any new or veteran players. This is about reaching a goal and unocking various benefits for your account or that individual character. I beleive that there should be favor goals that unlock both character level benefits and account wide benefits. Amoung those I feel 32 point favor unlocking for your account is a good thing for all players to achieve.

[Deadz]

so I just went ahead and added that for you to ask for as well. I was unhappy at how Korthos island gave glowy weapons away right away. One of my best memories was when I pulled the acid touched sword (1 pt acid) in the harbor. Now characters have one in 10 min of playing. It took me a long time to pull my first one.

I actually agree w/ you on Korthos gear, i think it's rediculous and trivializes the first few lvls of the game imo.. that is something i understand 100% where you are coming from.

but the other point you made which i saw you say a few times you put alot of work into your 32 point builds.. noone want's to take that away, but i didn't hear you mention your 28 point build.

[shores11]

I disagree. I think I nailed the situation there pretty well.

Just because a situation is technically "fair" doesn't make it a wise business decision. Most - if not all - for-profit businesses are based on revenue growth, not revenue stagnation.

If you keep going you will continue to make bad example after bad example. I was refering to the example you made about my example and that it really was not representative of the issue of the 32 point build.

[Deadz]

This does not affect me personally at all and I could care less about how it hurts veteran players. However my point is simply this after all I was a new player once myself:

I personally feel that achieving something like certain levels of favor should unlock various aspects of the game that can only be achieved by gaining enough of that favor to do so.

• I like unlocking Drow (although I prefer not to play one) for your account at 400 favor.
• I like unlocking bank slots for your character when you earn favor in House K.
• I like unlocking 32 point builds for your account when you reach 1750 favor.

This is not about hurting any new or veteran players. This is about reaching a goal and unocking various benefits for your account or that individual character. I beleive that there should be favor goals that unlock both character level benefits and account wide benefits. Amoung those I feel 32 point favor unlocking for your account is a good thing for all players to achieve.

Awesome, thank you. I will say i do see where your coming from, i personally like unlocking stuff for your character with favor and hate having to unlock account benifits with favor.. ones half full glass is another ones half empty huh?

K i'm going back to work (at job and on favor :P) /slinks out of discussion.

[Zenako]

I understand, in fact, all you have in this game is earned through how much you play and luck.. that's how mmo's work, skill is very little of the equation to what you get. We all know players who we "think" stink at the game who are greatly equipt and have finished all the content, cause they have time on there hands..

on the other hand, i will challange you to answer the same question as shores.. how would this negatively impact you?

Let me give this a crack....

IF we assume that the 1750 carrot to get 32 point builds matters, and matters enough to make some players feel compulsive about gaining that build perk, then that means that quite a few quests in the game must get run to gain that total. While running all those myriad quests, it is very likely LFM's will get posted for perhaps running Scoundrels Run, or Caverns of Korromar, etc. Quests that beside for favor would not get run during the headlone rush to cap due to their being less well known and perhaps challenging to complete without some forethought.

If that 32 point build carrot was removed, and it was agreed that the +2 tome perk for 1750 was no longer enough to drive some to obsession at current endgame, then the diveristy of quests appearing on LFM's would likely decrease and all you would see are what are considered the core powerleveling quests being listed all the time.

If you are the kind of player who is just a joiner, not a group starter, what this would mean in terms of the game is that you would likely have fewer options of groups to join, that it would also be harder to fill groups if you were a leader, trying to run those less popular quests as well. The motivation for someone to join a run for more favor would be lower, a lot lower.

That is how removing that carrot could impact me, or someone like me looking to group up with or fill a party to run "other" quests.

[Deadz]

Let me give this a crack....

IF we assume that the 1750 carrot to get 32 point builds matters, and matters enough to make some players feel compulsive about gaining that build perk, then that means that quite a few quests in the game must get run to gain that total. While running all those myriad quests, it is very likely LFM's will get posted for perhaps running Scoundrels Run, or Caverns of Korromar, etc. Quests that beside for favor would not get run during the headlone rush to cap due to their being less well known and perhaps challenging to complete without some forethought.

If that 32 point build carrot was removed, and it was agreed that the +2 tome perk for 1750 was no longer enough to drive some to obsession at current endgame, then the diveristy of quests appearing on LFM's would likely decrease and all you would see are what are considered the core powerleveling quests being listed all the time.

If you are the kind of player who is just a joiner, not a group starter, what this would mean in terms of the game is that you would likely have fewer options of groups to join, that it would also be harder to fill groups if you were a leader, trying to run those less popular quests as well. The motivation for someone to join a run for more favor would be lower, a lot lower.

That is how removing that carrot could impact me, or someone like me looking to group up with or fill a party to run "other" quests.

K, stop making good counter points, i seriously got to go!!

[shores11]

I don't disagree. I think my overall point here is that no current players get hosed by <somehow> changing the 1750 system, even if it's just a change to make it apply to the character that earns it.

In other words, for each of the following situations, how does it hurt you?:
1) If Turbine made 32-point builds available at start
2) If Turbine made 1750 retroactive to the char that earns it
3) If Turbine made 1750 apply only to the character that earned it?

Interestingly enough, folks on your side of the fence seem to be more friendly towards options 2 or 3, which DO effect current players... but seem to be strongly against #1. This makes little sense to me, but on the other hand, so does the argument of "if I had to do it, so should they".

This was a nice post by you good examples and I love bullet points I use them at work alot.

I can not know what other people are thinking even the ones that are so-called on my side of the fence. I simply like the favor trek to unlock 32 point builds for my account that I have done so on 3 of the 5 current servers. This is a majorly appealing part of the game to me. I do not favor any of your bulleted items however as I believe and like the current 32 point system for your entire account.

I would be against what some have posted before (maybe not in this post) to have it unlock 32 point builds accross all servers.

[shores11]

Let me give this a crack....

IF we assume that the 1750 carrot to get 32 point builds matters, and matters enough to make some players feel compulsive about gaining that build perk, then that means that quite a few quests in the game must get run to gain that total. While running all those myriad quests, it is very likely LFM's will get posted for perhaps running Scoundrels Run, or Caverns of Korromar, etc. Quests that beside for favor would not get run during the headlone rush to cap due to their being less well known and perhaps challenging to complete without some forethought.

If that 32 point build carrot was removed, and it was agreed that the +2 tome perk for 1750 was no longer enough to drive some to obsession at current endgame, then the diveristy of quests appearing on LFM's would likely decrease and all you would see are what are considered the core powerleveling quests being listed all the time.

If you are the kind of player who is just a joiner, not a group starter, what this would mean in terms of the game is that you would likely have fewer options of groups to join, that it would also be harder to fill groups if you were a leader, trying to run those less popular quests as well. The motivation for someone to join a run for more favor would be lower, a lot lower.

That is how removing that carrot could impact me, or someone like me looking to group up with or fill a party to run "other" quests.

/signed

Very good point and I agree with you 100%. I am one of those players that enjoy the quest so much that even though I have a 28-point character maxed out on XP I still go back and run just about every quest in the game periodically. I complain all the time about the fact that certain quests get run a lot more than others. Remove this enticement to run those quests for favor and they would never get run. Getting a +2 tome from 1750 favor is not that big of a deal now since they drop semi-regularly now anyway.

[sjwalker1973]

I understand, in fact, all you have in this game is earned through how much you play and luck.. that's how mmo's work, skill is very little of the equation to what you get. We all know players who we "think" stink at the game who are greatly equipt and have finished all the content, cause they have time on there hands..

on the other hand, i will challange you to answer the same question as shores.. how would this negatively impact you?

You miss the other portion of the explaination. They aren't a core race. I agree Monks and others should be available starting since they are Core. Things that are in the DandD PHB should be available without favor. Drow should not be one of them. They should be unlocked as well as any other non standard player race since they require additional levels to play in regular PnP. Favor could account for the additional payment for this.

[Strakeln]

That is how removing that carrot could impact me, or someone like me looking to group up with or fill a party to run "other" quests.

And that's a fairly valid point, but there's some big holes in it:

1. I ground out 1750 something like 2.5 years ago. Haven't done it ever again since. During that time, you'd see 2-4 favor LFMs almost any time you logged on. Not so anymore, 95% of us have the favor, so that benefit has been severely reduced, almost to the point of negligibility.
2. Less popular quests are that way for a reason: compared to the popular quests, the less popular ones result in a less reward per unit effort. An example is the Pit: was almost NEVER run except for favor... until they cranked the XP to match the effort. Now it is a very popular quest while leveling up. Everyone knows that fixing the root cause of the problem (in this case, mismatched XP/Loot : effort ratio) is a better solution than trying to mask it (1750 carrot).
3. If the true objective of the favor system is to encourage running less popular quests, you'd think they'd make it per-character, not per-account.

[sjwalker1973]

Let me give this a crack....

IF we assume that the 1750 carrot to get 32 point builds matters, and matters enough to make some players feel compulsive about gaining that build perk, then that means that quite a few quests in the game must get run to gain that total. While running all those myriad quests, it is very likely LFM's will get posted for perhaps running Scoundrels Run, or Caverns of Korromar, etc. Quests that beside for favor would not get run during the headlone rush to cap due to their being less well known and perhaps challenging to complete without some forethought.

If that 32 point build carrot was removed, and it was agreed that the +2 tome perk for 1750 was no longer enough to drive some to obsession at current endgame, then the diveristy of quests appearing on LFM's would likely decrease and all you would see are what are considered the core powerleveling quests being listed all the time.

If you are the kind of player who is just a joiner, not a group starter, what this would mean in terms of the game is that you would likely have fewer options of groups to join, that it would also be harder to fill groups if you were a leader, trying to run those less popular quests as well. The motivation for someone to join a run for more favor would be lower, a lot lower.

That is how removing that carrot could impact me, or someone like me looking to group up with or fill a party to run "other" quests.

The standard PnP point buy build is 28 pts. 32 pt builds are optional in the DMG. The point buy system is listed in the DandD 3.5 DMG and are optional rules. Most toons are built by rolling 3d6 and assigning stats. That would not be practical in online character building. At least the pt buy system is a standard way and provides an in game balance mechanism.

[RazorrX]

I actually agree w/ you on Korthos gear, i think it's rediculous and trivializes the first few lvls of the game imo.. that is something i understand 100% where you are coming from.

but the other point you made which i saw you say a few times you put alot of work into your 32 point builds.. noone want's to take that away, but i didn't hear you mention your 28 point build.

Still have him, and in fact he sent his sword of pain (acid touched ss) to a newbie ranger so he can dual wield it with his korthos sword. :-)

[Strakeln]

This was a nice post by you good examples and I love bullet points I use them at work alot.

And on the DDO forums as well!

I can not know what other people are thinking even the ones that are so-called on my side of the fence. I simply like the favor trek to unlock 32 point builds for my account that I have done so on 3 of the 5 current servers. This is a majorly appealing part of the game to me. I do not favor any of your bulleted items however as I believe and like the current 32 point system for your entire account.

You're entitled to that opinion, and I appreciate you taking the time to express it to me in such a civil manner.

I would be against what some have posted before (maybe not in this post) to have it unlock 32 point builds across all servers.

Eh, it's something you can do now for a fee, why not make it a little bit easier to do while still making some cash? (I really don't care either way about the cross-server thing, as experienced players have ways to deal with that: cross-server trading or sponsoring, character transfer, etc).