Noob thinks 32 point builds should be for all.

[Deadz]

Then that is just BS on that players part, that is not hazing. If some players want to play that way that is their choice. If you do not want to play that way join another group.

I feel hazed then because an LFM is up to run Tangleroot but I want them to run Gwylan's Stand. Dang it Turbine you are creating an atmoshpere for me to be hazed.

/sigh, i think you are stretching it a bit, the point is that SOME not all but SOME NEW players feel like the favor grind has to be done before they can enjoy the game, that is fact.

The question is Does the cons of it outweigh the benefits

[SableShadow]

/sigh, i think you are stretching it a bit, the point is that SOME not all but SOME NEW players feel like the favor grind has to be done before they can enjoy the game, that is fact.

The question is Does the cons of it outweigh the benefits

That's why I prefer to phrase the problem as "rerolling auto-magically makes you better" is simply a bad game mechanic for an MMO. Sidesteps the whole "personal experiences" spam.

[Zenako]

The "hazing" point was not to derail anything, but if someone had been getting told in quests by vets that they were useless as a starting character, that could easily be seen as a subscription stopper for some. If it was actually being done in a hazing manner it should also be reported as effectively harrassment which is taboo.

Good to hear that was not the root of the term being used in this context.

deadz...I think this is by far the longest a thread of this nature has survived without any serious hint of the cube sniffing around. Congrats.

[Deadz]

The "hazing" point was not to derail anything, but if someone had been getting told in quests by vets that they were useless as a starting character, that could easily be seen as a subscription stopper for some. It actually being done in a hazing manner it should also be reported as effectively harrassment with is taboo.

Good to hear that was not the root of the term being used in this context.

Aye that's why i tried to clarify so quickly, good lookin' out.

[Freeman]

/The question is Does the cons of it outweigh the benefits

Actually, the pros and cons of the notion are pointless to argue. The only thing that matters are the numbers. If one person quits because of this every month, then it is a trivial matter not worth addressing. If one person quits every day because of this, then it is worth looking into changing it. Unfortunately, we only have anecdotal evidence available to us here, so the only authority on the subject is Turbine. All the other arguments are just fluff with no real substance.

[Fenrisulven6]

There is no favor-zerg path.

There is. I know because I just ran it:

"the need to finish out 1750 favor so I could start rolling up new toons resulted in many zerg groups with new players like me just trying to keep up and not take a wrong turn [which usually resulted in death]. Sometimes we banded together - 3 of us trying to figure out the map [The Pit, ughhh] while the rest of the party fought monsters and had fun. Each quest was a flash of broken crates and open portals as I rushed to catch up. Hardly learned anything about the quests or the DDO mechanics along the way. Which is likely why you see so many 32pt peeps who don't know the quest. Is this the way you want new blood introduced to the game?"

Right now my 32pt cleric is perma-parked at 9th. Half the groups I join are peeps just wanting to have fun, running Stormcleave/Deleras/Tempest/Sorrowdusk until our eyes bleed.

The other half are groups with new players wanting to run lower level House K and P favor on elite simply so they can get to the "starting line" and begin playing the game. They don't know what zerging is, but by chasing elite LFMs they tend to be grouped with powerlevelers who don't care if they can't keep up. They put up with the bad experience simply because they want to get the 1750 over with as soon as possible.

Zerging is a playstyle that will happen regardless of favor, difficulty, reward, level, or any other variable. Why do you think it will disappear if the favor is not required?

I don't think it would disappear from the game, thats not what I'm saying. I'm saying that a mechanic that encourages new players to team with zerging vets is not conducive to retaining those new players because it misrepresents the gaming experience.

[shores11]

Yes/no/maybe...irrelevant. My point is, right or wrong, that is what the 32 unlock trends towards - encouraging new players to favor-level as quickly as they can so they can reach the "starting line" and build their stable of characters.

Wrong: The 32 point builds DO NOT lead to zerging or quickly running through quests just to get 32 point builds. Zerging is something some players do no matter what no matter the goal. In fact I am so anti-zerg if a party does zerg or begins to zerg I'll drop and join or form another group that does not.

Then you can appreciate how this trend would frustrate new players who don't know any better and make them more likely to quit.

Wrong: This sentence is just silly as it implys that "Timmy said he wouldn't date me unless I dropped my panties". Grow up and join a party that does not zerg if you do not wish to be in a zerging party. Then get into a party that does not zerg and wants to enjoy the quest for what it is. I go back and run just about every quest in the game just because I want to re-experience it and I get nothing for it usually but quest enjoyment.

ANother reply.

[Deadz]

ANother reply.

Your reply seems based on your playstyle, and not answering the person you quoteds experience.

[Fenrisulven6]

The fallacy with this argument is that it assumes all existing players have nothing but 32pt builds. The majority of people still have 28pt build characters they play regularly.

Sorry but that seems a bit disingenuous. Sure, the majority of people still have 28s they play, but how many 32s are in their stable of toons? The number of 32s has to be much greater than the number of 28s because once you reach 1750 you can't build 28s anymore.

[Kalari]

Like Ive said my experience has been different then Fens and a few others here. When I started December 07 I made Kalari my main and 28pt build wizard. My first week was only rough because I was shy and when I heard voices over mics I shied away and tried soloing which on a wizard lol yeah you can imagine how that went. I found a group of very nice people that took her threw Cerulean hills then another who took her threw water works and actually explained things to me and let me enjoy the game since I had made it known I was new. There was no "oh your a 28 pointer" There was no Zerging there was just fun and letting me stop to look at things take snapshots and read things. Zerging actually didnt become an issue till I hit level 10 I believe once I got haste and other buffs that people desired then running threw quests seemed to get quicker. But even then if I wanted to do it slow id run with a guild or friends who liked taking their time.

Thats the thing I make the fun I get out of this game, and I guareentee you if I didnt tell people Kalari was my first build and 28 points no re roll no one would tell the difference. And trust me she still gets played and is ready for all the raids (just got to get her flagged for Sorjek now). So unless you do make characters like Fen did where its such a split people tend to shy away a 28 pt build character can be accepted just fine. And though I know not many have the same situation as me my first build of Kalari is still playable I guess I just lucked out. The only mistake that I dont even consider a mistake is I gave her a decent charisma because I was going by pnp thinking dealing with npcs with a high charisma would make quests easier. It has helped her with her umd though so I dont regret it.

[Zenako]

Sorry but that seems a bit disingenuous. Sure, the majority of people still have 28s they play, but how many 32s are in their stable of toons? The number of 32s has to be much greater than the number of 28s because once you reach 1750 you can't build 28s anymore.

Well personally I have 2 32 pointers out of 18 characters on my main server, meaning the other 16 are 28 pointers. (and all my characters on all other servers are 28 pointers for all that matters)

[Freeman]

There is. I know because I just ran it:

"the need to finish out 1750 favor so I could start rolling up new toons resulted in many zerg groups with new players like me just trying to keep up and not take a wrong turn [which usually resulted in death]. Sometimes we banded together - 3 of us trying to figure out the map [The Pit, ughhh] while the rest of the party fought monsters and had fun. Each quest was a flash of broken crates and open portals as I rushed to catch up. Hardly learned anything about the quests or the DDO mechanics along the way. Which is likely why you see so many 32pt peeps who don't know the quest. Is this the way you want new blood introduced to the game?"

Again, how does a choice of how to play equate to something that is required? Others choose NOT to do things the way you did. Why does your experience invalidate their experience? Do you have anything other than anecdotal evidence to support your claim? Simply saying, "I don't like to zerg, but I decided to do it anyway so I could get a reward faster" does not support your argument. What if someone in the Pit party didn't care about 1750 favor, but were instead trying to get 150 House D favor? Would that be justification for allowing anyone to purchase all the House D arrows without any favor requirement? There's always going to be some goal that people are going to want to zerg for. Favor just happens to be one of them, and it isn't the most common one.

The other half are groups with new players wanting to run lower level House K and P favor on elite simply so they can get to the "starting line" and begin playing the game. They don't know what zerging is, but by chasing elite LFMs they tend to be grouped with powerlevelers who don't care if they can't keep up. They put up with the bad experience simply because they want to get the 1750 over with as soon as possible.

Actually, most people run House K favor to open up more bank slots, based on my experiences. I've even started many of those groups myself, since that first bank slot makes a huge difference in storage space. Since those are needed on every character, this change would not do anything for those groups. Most run House P for the buffs first, then the trinket next. Again, not affected by the proposed change.

I don't think it would disappear from the game, thats not what I'm saying. I'm saying that a mechanic that encourages new players to team with zerging vets is not conducive to retaining those new players because it misrepresents the gaming experience.

The problem of zerging is not a problem related to favor. It will happen, regardless of what the end goal happens to be in any given group. Your solution is like trying to slow down speeders on an interstate by removing one of the exit ramps. All you'll do is change the destination, not how fast they get there.

[Kalari]

Well personally I have 2 32 pointers out of 18 characters on my main server, meaning the other 16 are 28 pointers. (and all my characters on all other servers are 28 pointers for all that matters)

Maybe we lucked out on our sever Zenako? Im telling you Ive never had any issue with my 28 pointers either.

The thing I see here even if its not meant to be this way is people think having 32 pt builds is going to change the mentality of "you must have this to equal a good player" mentality some others have. But I can guarentee you for every player who thinks that having the best stats and never (or hardly ever failing) a quest, there is players who just have fun. And who can beat challenging quests with their original roles. Some of us learn how to adapt our supposedly gimpy toons into any situation. To me that will always stand out over having extra stat placement. Learning to adapt and work with what you have will serve a player longer in my opinion then having what supposedly a perfect stat alignment a stable of tomes and gear and what not.

But once again this is just my opinion even if they did open this up to new players I dont see how it would help with anything unless your planning on playing builds that need the extra stats off the bat, and my experience when I was new I stuck to playing a class I knew well from pnp I just got into multiclassing after a year and I still prefer pure builds.

[SableShadow]

I'm saying that a mechanic that encourages new players to team with zerging vets is not conducive to retaining those new players because it misrepresents the gaming experience.

Continuously returning to the "newbies vs vets" theme, regardless of your personal experience, isn't going to move the discussion along. Newbies become vets, and at some point everyone plays together in the endgame.

Focusing on the "making people feel they have to reroll is a bad gaming experience" is a better approach.

There's no reason to polarize opinions.

Just sayin'.

[krud]

Not interested.

1) although chasing the 32 unlock is not about raising stat points for me, the +1 is not enough. Yes, it equates to a 32pt build IF you were going to throw those 4 points into your primary stat, but would short those who might prefer splitting those 4 points to bump up secondary stats, ie. 2 to Con and 2 to Cha, raising a pair of 12s to 14.

There is just no pleasing some people. This sufficiently addresses the major issue people have with the 1750 favor. You may be +1 or -1 stat point, but overall it is comparable to a 32pt build. This will help keep a 28pt character from needing a reroll. They will become comparable, and subsequently you'd have access to all those other 32pt combos you mention.

2) Doesn't address my issue with the current system: leads new players to the favor-zerg path where they get stuck riding their 1st misbuilt toon [because they don't want to sacrifice all the favor they've been earning to unlock 32s], get frustrated with the way the game appears to them, and quit playing..

Nothing about a 32 point build will adress this particular issue. What you are describing is a newbie mistake that occurs regardless of the build that is available. You can screw up your build just as easily with 32 points or 28 points. You will still lose any favor, xp, and bound items. Your character won't start with 32pts, but you have the potential to make it comparable, which is most people's complaint. They just don't want to feel they need a reroll.


Turbine should not take away a favor reward. it is a good carrot for many people. Judging from your replies I'd say you just don't like any favor grind, even if the reward is balanced toward equalizing with 32pt builds, which puts you in an even smaller minority of those who don't like the current setup.

[Fenrisulven6]

Again, how does a choice of how to play equate to something that is required?

I never said it was required - I said it trends, it encourages, ie. new players are more likely to be exposed to bad zerg experiences because they [right or wrong] believe they need to grind out the 1750 which tends to pair them up with vets who are zerging the quest on elite to power level.

Others choose NOT to do things the way you did. Why does your experience invalidate their experience?

Again, where did I ever say that my experience invalidates theirs? [Other than the fact that mine is only months old, compared to others here that are years old]

Simply saying, "I don't like to zerg, but I decided to do it anyway so I could get a reward faster" does not support your argument.

I'm saying "this is the path I [rightly or wrongly] fell into because of the way the 32 unlock is set up." Others here on the thread are saying their experience was similar.

instead trying to get 150 House D favor? Would that be justification for allowing anyone to purchase all the House D arrows without any favor requirement?

Patron favor unlocks for the toon. 32pt favor unlocks for the player and his account. And patron favor doesn't lock me into a poorly built 1st toon for 3 months simply because I don't want to lose the 1200 favor I already have. Apples and oranges.

Actually, most people run House K favor to open up more bank slots, based on my experiences.

Certainly. But the groups I mentioned contain new players running K & P on elite solely for the purpose of getting the 1750 over with as quickly as possible. I know because I asked them.

The problem of zerging is not a problem related to favor.

The problem is that new players who don't know any better are chasing elite favor LFMs to unlock their account so they can "start" the game. By design, they find themselves in zerg powerleveling groups that lead to bad experiences that do not fairly represent the flavour of the game.

Imagine you are new and at 6th lvl. Your DDO experience has devolved in trying to catch up with zergs in each quest. You think thats the norm for the game. Would you stay?

[SableShadow]

And patron favor doesn't lock me into a poorly built 1st toon for 3 months simply because I don't want to lose the 1200 favor I already have.

Sounds like we need a character respec mechanism.

[Fenrisulven6]

There is just no pleasing some people. This sufficiently addresses the major issue people have with the 1750 favor. You may be +1 or -1 stat point, but overall it is comparable to a 32pt build.

No, its a bit more than half. Its a weak compromise. It would be better to do nothing.

Nothing about a 32 point build will adress this particular issue. What you are describing is a newbie mistake that occurs regardless of the build that is available.

A newbie mistake that results from the way the system is set up. Fix the problem instead of applying bandaids to it. Open 32s up for everyone.

Judging from your replies I'd say you just don't like any favor grind

I don't even notice the other favor "grinds". I stumble across the patron benchmarks without even realizing it.

[...]

Why are you getting hostile? You asked if I would support it and I explained why I wouldn't. If you don't want constructive feedback, don't ask for it.

[Fenrisulven6]

Sounds like we need a character respec mechanism.

We agree

[SableShadow]

We agree