Noob thinks 32 point builds should be for all.

[krud]

If it's a +2 tome, then there is, basically, no reward for 1750. Best strategy is to hit the higher levels quickly rather than branching out and doing diverse quests; leveling goes faster than favor even now, and with +3 unbounds going to be dropping in Mod 9, it becomes harder to justify bothering with 1750. Faction rewards, now...that's another matter. Sufficiently good faction rewards that total to 1750 would make the 1750 mark irrelevant no matter how you looked at it.

Not that they will ever change the build system anyway, but they should give the particular 28pt character who reaches 1750 a 1 point ability raise instead of a +2tome (just like you get every 4 levels). To keep things even, perhaps they should not give drow or 32pt builds a raise at 1750, but only at the second favor milestone (2500?).

[Fenrisulven6]

28pt builds are not gimped.

I never said they were. I said 1st toons are.

As has been pointed out, and also mentioned by the OP, it is a mere perception, and not really grounded in reality.

I was also one of those who pointed that out. Perception is reality for new players.

The "unfun" you speak of is a completely self-imposed obsession that you have brought upon yourself.

Yes. Self-imposed because I would rather start my stable of 10 toons with 32 rather than 28. Shrug.

That is probably why it gets so little sympathy from veteran players

Read again. About half the vets are sympathetic. And bear in mind, this is not about opening 32 for me. Its about me relating my new player experience, and that of many other new players, re an outdated favor reward that is not conducive to retaining new players.

quite a few who still have and enjoy their 28pt builds, with their so-called "gimpy" stats and all.

Again, I didn't say my 28 was gimpy because of her stats. Here it is again:

I wanted to play a real multi-class for fun, as I had great success with my Rogue/Mage in PnP. So much so that our DMs were grateful when I voluntarily chose to only pick up spells that were nondamaging and fit the concept [ie. Dimdoor, Darkness, etc instead of MM & FB]

But at 3/3 I realized, due to the LFM mechanics of DDO, no one would want a Rogue8/Mage8 in their party at endgame. Worse, the 3 lvls of mage I splashed were intended to be support buffs that became almost useless once players got access to House P buffs [only 75 favor]. So I stopped advancing mage levels.

At 10th, I'm a 7rogue/3mage - had to waste a feat on Extend just to make Blurs etc useful compared to the pure mages in the party [my 6 mins vs their 10mins]. Also had to max out trapmonkey skills/enhancements to make up for the 3 lvl difference, ie. you're leading an elite 10th level quest and need a trapmonkey, I request join and you see I've only got 7 levels to apply to 12th lvl content. No favor runs for me tonight. Again.

So as you can see, I had to waste feats/enchancements [that are normally used to improve a toon] just to keep her head above water. And thats not even considering the points I wasted on Stealth, an ability that is a joke in DDO when compared to its utility in PnP. I would have rerolled her if not for the fact that I would lose all the favor I had gained. So I limped on.

And if 28s are so loved, why did Turbine find it necessary to put in a option for vets to transfer their 32s to a new server? For a fee. Vets are paying money to NOT start over with 28s....

32pt builds are a pitch to the power gamer, to give them things to do with their excess time.

We disagree. 32s are not a pitch to powergamers, they are the standard for DDO players, new and old alike.

And its not a zero sum game. We don't play against each other, we play on the same team. The only reason I advocate opening up 32s to new players is so they can avoid this:

And again, the need to finish out 1750 favor so I could start rolling up new toons resulted in many zerg groups with new players like me just trying to keep up and not take a wrong turn [which usually resulted in death]. Sometimes we banded together - 3 of us trying to figure out the map [The Pit, ughhh] while the rest of the party fought monsters and had fun. Each quest was a flash of broken crates and open portals as I rushed to catch up. Hardly learned anything about the quests or the DDO mechanics along the way. Which is likely why you see so many 32pt peeps who don't know the quest. Is this the way you want new blood introduced to the game?

I want them to stick around, so I have more peeps to go out and kill critters with.

[Zenako]

IMO, that's an inappropriate analogy. The ACBL rating system is a binning system, not a reward system. Favor in DDO is a reward system. DDO has a binning system by way of character level and, to some extent, quest flagging. If the ACBL system was a reward system you would get to play with a marked deck or something.

I swear some of the people I played with must have had a marked deck....

there was NO way the bidding indicated where that offsuit AQ was located...sigh, but that is for another time and place and from my old history (no longer play so my memory may no longer truely reflect current rules). (some of my earliest characters were named Skippity, Bippity, with magic swords by the names of Jumpshift and LimitRaise...blame the cardplaying DM for some of that....)

[SableShadow]

Not that they will ever change the build system anyway, but they should give the particular 28pt character who reaches 1750 a 1 point ability raise instead of a +2tome (just like you get every 4 levels). To keep things even, perhaps they should not give drow or 32pt builds a raise at 1750, but only at the second favor milestone (2500?).

Well...best strat is probably make a change, toss a cookie to folks that did the previous grind, and move on. Managing change can be done right (re: CoH Enhancement Diversification) or wrong (re: SWG).

[sjwalker1973]

[QUOTE=Fenrisulven6;2069650]I never said they were. I said 1st toons are.



I was also one of those who pointed that out. Perception is reality for new players.



Yes. Self-imposed because I would rather start my stable of 10 toons with 32 rather than 28. Shrug.



Read again. About half the vets are sympathetic. And bear in mind, this is not about opening 32 for me. Its about me relating my new player experience, and that of many other new players, re an outdated favor reward that is not conducive to retaining new players.

[quote]quite a few who still have and enjoy their 28pt builds, with their so-called "gimpy" stats and all.

Again, I didn't say my 28 was gimpy because of her stats. Here it is again:

I wanted to play a real multi-class for fun, as I had great success with my Rogue/Mage in PnP. So much so that our DMs were grateful when I voluntarily chose to only pick up spells that were nondamaging and fit the concept [ie. Dimdoor, Darkness, etc instead of MM & FB]

But at 3/3 I realized, due to the LFM mechanics of DDO, no one would want a Rogue8/Mage8 in their party at endgame. Worse, the 3 lvls of mage I splashed were intended to be support buffs that became almost useless once players got access to House P buffs [only 75 favor]. So I stopped advancing mage levels.

At 10th, I'm a 7rogue/3mage - had to waste a feat on Extend just to make Blurs etc useful compared to the pure mages in the party [my 6 mins vs their 10mins]. Also had to max out trapmonkey skills/enhancements to make up for the 3 lvl difference, ie. you're leading an elite 10th level quest and need a trapmonkey, I request join and you see I've only got 7 levels to apply to 12th lvl content. No favor runs for me tonight. Again.

So as you can see, I had to waste feats/enchancements [that are normally used to improve a toon] just to keep her head above water. And thats not even considering the points I wasted on Stealth, an ability that is a joke in DDO when compared to its utility in PnP. I would have rerolled her if not for the fact that I would lose all the favor I had gained. So I limped on.

And if 28s are so loved, why did Turbine find it necessary to put in a option for vets to transfer their 32s to a new server. For a fee. Vets are paying money to NOT start over with 28s....



We disagree. 32s are not a pitch to powergamers, they are the standard for DDO players, new and old alike.

And its not a zero sum game. We don't play against each other, we play on the same team. The only reason I advocate opening up 32s to new players is so they can avoid this:

And again, the need to finish out 1750 favor so I could start rolling up new toons resulted in many zerg groups with new players like me just trying to keep up and not take a wrong turn [which usually resulted in death]. Sometimes we banded together - 3 of us trying to figure out the map [The Pit, ughhh] while the rest of the party fought monsters and had fun. Each quest was a flash of broken crates and open portals as I rushed to catch up. Hardly learned anything about the quests or the DDO mechanics along the way. Which is likely why you see so many 32pt peeps who don't know the quest. Is this the way you want new blood introduced to the game?

I want them to stick around, so I have more peeps to go out and kill critters with.

You obviously do not have the Pen and Paper DMG and PHB. 28 pt builds are the STANDARD point buy system. 32 pt builds are for power gamers. It's OPTIONAL.

[Freeman]

And again, the need to finish out 1750 favor so I could start rolling up new toons resulted in many zerg groups with new players like me just trying to keep up and not take a wrong turn [which usually resulted in death]. Sometimes we banded together - 3 of us trying to figure out the map [The Pit, ughhh] while the rest of the party fought monsters and had fun. Each quest was a flash of broken crates and open portals as I rushed to catch up. Hardly learned anything about the quests or the DDO mechanics along the way. Which is likely why you see so many 32pt peeps who don't know the quest. Is this the way you want new blood introduced to the game?

This has nothing to do with 32pt builds, favor, or anything else discussed in this thread. Zerging is going to happen regardless of the ultimate goal, quest difficulty, or anything else. Some players will always zerg, others won't. If you don't like those groups, don't join them. But opening up 32pt chars for everyone won't keep things like this from happening to new players. If this is your major issue, then you are not addressing the source of the problem.

[krud]

Well...best strat is probably make a change, toss a cookie to folks that did the previous grind, and move on. Managing change can be done right (re: CoH Enhancement Diversification) or wrong (re: SWG).

They could just give all current 28pt builds with 1750 favor a 1 point ability raise, and consider the +2 tome in the same league as the birthday cake, i.e. a bonus for subscribers. Then make 2500 favor the next milestone for all characters and make it also a +1 ability raise. This would effectively make any 28point build very comparable to a drow or 32pt build. No need to wrangle over rerolling your original toon.

[Fenrisulven6]

You obviously do not have the Pen and Paper DMG and PHB. 28 pt builds are the STANDARD point buy system. 32 pt builds are for power gamers. It's OPTIONAL.

Hey, if you're calling for Turbine to remake DDO into the PnP version, I'm all for it. Because if its optional, why does everyone have to roll 32s once they reach 1750 [and I only say "have to" because there's no option to go back to 28s if you want; ie. not optional].

Until then, we're discussing DDO not PnP. And 32s are standard in DDO, not optional.

But perhaps you can explain why vets are telling us newbs that 28s are no big deal while they pay cash to NOT start over as 28s on a new server...

[sjwalker1973]

Hey, if you're calling for Turbine to remake DDO into the PnP version, I'm all for it. Because if its optional, why does everyone have to roll 32s once they reach 1750 [and I only say "have to" because there's no option to go back to 28s if you want; ie. not optional].

Until then, we're discussing DDO not PnP. And 32s are standard in DDO, not optional.

But perhaps you can explain why vets are telling us newbs that 28s are no big deal while they pay cash to NOT start over as 28s on a new server...

Read the DMG. 28 pt is Standard. 32 is for high powered games. 28 pt builds are also the standard in WOTC's Living Campaigns. DDO is based off of 3.5 rules.

[Fenrisulven6]

Read the DMG. 28 pt is Standard. 32 is for high powered games. 28 pt builds are also the standard in WOTC's Living Campaigns. DDO is based off of 3.5 rules.

[sjwalker1973]

Then play the **** game and stop complaining that you don't have a 32 pt build unlocked yet. You'll unlock it in no time. Unless you want to waste your time complaining even more.

[SableShadow]

But perhaps you can explain why vets are telling us newbs that 28s are no big deal while they pay cash to NOT start over as 28s on a new server...

Get off my side. Now. Pls.

[Freeman]

But perhaps you can explain why vets are telling us newbs that 28s are no big deal while they pay cash to NOT start over as 28s on a new server...

And others simply rolled up characters on servers and ground out the favor. Still others rolled up characters on different servers without caring if they had 32pt builds unlocked. Again, it comes down to how important it is to each person. We could list different, specific examples on both sides all day, and it won't matter to anyone.

If you believe 32pt builds are the "standard", then you are entitled to that opinion. My own experiences have been different. The only person that will ever know if a character is 28 or 32 pt build is the player behind the character. No one else will care one way or the other. That's why I say 32pt characters aren't a big deal.

[Fenrisulven6]

Then play the **** game and stop complaining that you don't have a 32 pt build unlocked yet.

I already have 32pt builds unlocked. Try to read a bit more carefully.

Unless you want to waste your time complaining even more.

Read the thread again. I'm not complaining, I'm relating my new player experience with the outdated 1750 favor, explaining why I think its a hindrance to retaining new players and should be changed, and discovering that my experience was not unique.

But perhaps you can explain why vets are telling us newbs that 28s are no big deal while they pay cash to NOT start over as 28s on a new server...

Get off my side. Now. Pls.

Your side? Don't flatter yourself. And why are you unresponsive to the question? If 28s are no biggie, why do vets pay cash to not play them?
Why launch a personal attack instead of explaining why people pay money to not play 28s?

And others simply rolled up characters on servers and ground out the favor. Still others rolled up characters on different servers without caring if they had 32pt builds unlocked.

Of course. But the fact that Turbine felt a need to create the service says that a significant portion of the vet population was willing to pay money to NOT play 28s again. Which discredits the argument that vets see no real diff between 28s and 32s.

[darkrhavyn]

Yup. Even worse, if you are new, your "practice" character is a gimpy build. So not only do you have to hunt around for elite LFMs, you have to hope the party leader is kind enough to accept you into group.

I ran my first toon [rogue] to lvl 9 before I realized she was gimped. But didn't want to reroll as I was already more than halfway to 1750. Limped the rest of the way in. Took another two months. Unfun.

Just my point.....many first characters have flaws unless you are lucky or picked a class thats hard to mess up....opening 32 points initially, without any knowledge of how to use those points wont make a bad build that much better.....if you didnt know a rogue needs some int to be able to find and disable traps, having four extra points isn't going to teach you that.

I think that was the goal of the "path" builds....to try and make a character that was decent, if not perfect, until you had time to learn what to do to build one.

You made a comment that you couldnt see people using a +3 tome on a 28 pt character....for the record, EVERY +3 tome i have used has been on a 28 pt character....three of them listed in my sig...all my original builds from 3 years ago.

Just because some people arent happy unless they have the fastest shinest toy doesnt mean that all of us are that way.

[Fenrisulven6]

Just my point.....many first characters have flaws unless you are lucky or picked a class thats hard to mess up....opening 32 points initially, without any knowledge of how to use those points wont make a bad build that much better.

Agreed. But the difference is that the 32 can be rerolled at will to fix mistakes. With the 28, you are locked into it because you don't want to sacrifice the ~1200 of the 1750 favor already earned.

Imagine if Turbine rolled you back to 3 months ago... wouldn't you be less inclined to stay and play?

[darkrhavyn]

Okay, I see I need to clarify - we would rather NOT have zerged it, but most the elite LFMs on my server are by vets who are power leveling.
So its either tag along or waste another 2 months limping towards 1750 by doing it n/h/e

And while I appreciate your experiences in game, mine have been different.

Because you CHOSE to see unlocking 1750 as quickly as possible as something you had to do.

I rerolled my original Cia on another server where i didnt have 32 point builds...did i tweak a couple of stats,,yes, but shes still my main on both servers. Do I have 1750 open on the other server..yes, but I did it exactly the way i did the first time....by running the quests on n,h,and elite as i leveled....I like the bonus xp at each level and i hate running a single quest 8 or 9 times just for xp-its a heck of alot more boring than doing 3 quests on three different settings for me.

T

[darkrhavyn]

Agreed. But the difference is that the 32 can be rerolled at will to fix mistakes. With the 28, you are locked into it because you don't want to sacrifice the ~1200 of the 1750 favor already earned.

Imagine if Turbine rolled you back to 3 months ago... wouldn't you be less inclined to stay and play?

No....I havent done anything for the last three months except raid with capped characters who were capped 6 months ago and play with weirdo builds that never got beyond 5th or 6th lol....

However, i do understand what you were trying to say...it just wouldnt matter to me for that specific event to happen

[shores11]

Agreed. But the difference is that the 32 can be rerolled at will to fix mistakes. With the 28, you are locked into it because you don't want to sacrifice the ~1200 of the 1750 favor already earned.

Imagine if Turbine rolled you back to 3 months ago... wouldn't you be less inclined to stay and play?

I enjoy the favor system as is. Thank you Turbine for the system as you designed it as I think you did a very good job. Please do not buy into the hype of some of these players that just want to jump into the game (probably from zerg fest WoW) and instantly have access to all of the benefits a player gets from experiencing each quest in game.

Isn't it time to move on to another whine fest issue. The favor system will not change.

[SableShadow]

Your side? Don't flatter yourself. And why are you unresponsive to the question? If 28s are no biggie, why do vets pay cash to not play them?
Why launch a personal attack instead of explaining why people pay money to not play 28s?

Dude! You got an '06 forum tag...you got 32 pt builds...and despite all that, you run off with all this random "I'm a newbie, the vets are killing this game!" ****.

You're a newbie or you're a vet. Your categorization , not mine. Pick one.

On top of that, you suggest a 'solution' of lowering the favor cap rather than fixing the friggin' problem! BS! Let's FIX. THE FRIGGIN'. PROBLEM.

I think the issue is important, the core issue, it needs a fix, and ... get this... I don't think you agree.

So get off my side.