Noob thinks 32 point builds should be for all.

[shores11]

[QUOTE=Fenrisulven6;2069902]
Read the thread again. I'm not complaining, I'm relating my new player experience with the outdated 1750 favor, explaining why I think its a hindrance to retaining new players and should be changed, and discovering that my experience was not unique.
QUOTE]

Because you say its out dated doesn't make it so. Your experience is not unique but it is also not in the majority.

[shores11]

Hey, if you're calling for Turbine to remake DDO into the PnP version, I'm all for it. Because if its optional, why does everyone have to roll 32s once they reach 1750 [and I only say "have to" because there's no option to go back to 28s if you want; ie. not optional].

Until then, we're discussing DDO not PnP. And 32s are standard in DDO, not optional.

But perhaps you can explain why vets are telling us newbs that 28s are no big deal while they pay cash to NOT start over as 28s on a new server...

There are several things wrong with this post.

1. Everyone does not have to roll 32 point characters after they unlock 32 point builds. If you choose not to customize your build you will have a character with a 28 point build.

2. Depending on who you call vets (I have played 3 years now, maybe I am a vet) however I also just started playing on a new server I have never played on before and am playing with a 28 point build and enjoying it very much.

Pay close attention to this: I DID NOT PAY ANYONE ANYTHING TO NOT START OVER WITH A 28 POINT BUILD.

In fact on my primary server I have 6 capped characters and 3 of those are 28 point builds. Guess what I play all 6 of my characters evenly and have no problems getting into any group at anytime and contributing.

[Uska]

Hey, if you're calling for Turbine to remake DDO into the PnP version, I'm all for it. Because if its optional, why does everyone have to roll 32s once they reach 1750 [and I only say "have to" because there's no option to go back to 28s if you want; ie. not optional].

Until then, we're discussing DDO not PnP. And 32s are standard in DDO, not optional.

But perhaps you can explain why vets are telling us newbs that 28s are no big deal while they pay cash to NOT start over as 28s on a new server...

Wrong again lots of us do start on a new server and dont spend cash to get 32pts without working for it as its a waste of 25 dollars to many of us to do so, I have started over on my 3rd server after reaching 1750 on two others and I am far from the only one to do so.

[Uska]

I already have 32pt builds unlocked. Try to read a bit more carefully.



Read the thread again. I'm not complaining, I'm relating my new player experience with the outdated 1750 favor, explaining why I think its a hindrance to retaining new players and should be changed, and discovering that my experience was not unique.





Your side? Don't flatter yourself. And why are you unresponsive to the question? If 28s are no biggie, why do vets pay cash to not play them?
Why launch a personal attack instead of explaining why people pay money to not play 28s?



Of course. But the fact that Turbine felt a need to create the service says that a significant portion of the vet population was willing to pay money to NOT play 28s again. Which discredits the argument that vets see no real diff between 28s and 32s.

Prove this just because they have the service doesnt mean lots of people use it

[Fenrisulven6]

This has nothing to do with 32pt builds, favor, or anything else discussed in this thread. Zerging is going to happen regardless of the ultimate goal, quest difficulty, or anything else. Some players will always zerg, others won't. If you don't like those groups, don't join them. But opening up 32pt chars for everyone won't keep things like this from happening to new players. If this is your major issue, then you are not addressing the source of the problem.

Perhaps I didn't make myself clear. Its not about whether I prefer to zerg. The issue is that the current favor system encourages new players to fall into a zerging experience that diminishes the flavor of the game. Here's another example from a vet upthread:

"We had a newcomer in our guild lately and we rushed him through catacombs elite and other such quests to bring him to 400 favor, and then told him to create himself a nice drow character, and suggested he play him to 1750 favor. It was not difficult at all to do, but as I was helping rushing him to 400 favor, all I could think was how lame was the game to push people to give newcomers such a rushed and uninspired first glimpse of adventure."

Consider, this is your first experience with DDO:

"the need to finish out 1750 favor so I could start rolling up new toons resulted in many zerg groups with new players like me just trying to keep up and not take a wrong turn [which usually resulted in death]. Sometimes we banded together - 3 of us trying to figure out the map [The Pit, ughhh] while the rest of the party fought monsters and had fun. Each quest was a flash of broken crates and open portals as I rushed to catch up. Hardly learned anything about the quests or the DDO mechanics along the way."

As a new player, would you have been more likely or less likely to stick around?

[...]

Dude! You got an '06 forum tag...you got 32 pt builds...and despite all that, you run off with all this random "I'm a newbie, the vets are killing this game!"

Never said anything about vets killing the game. And the 06 tag is from a trial account when my machine didn't have enough ram to play [this forum account was created to troubleshoot the problem and remained when I finally installed the game on a new machine]. I've been playing since Sept of last year, and just started my first 32pt last month.

Of course, I expected someone like you to play that card, Sable. Get back to me when you're done with the silly personal attacks and ready to attack the argument itself.

On top of that, you suggest a 'solution' of lowering the favor cap rather than fixing the friggin' problem

I've already said the fix was to open 32s to new players. The idea of lowering the favor cap was presented as a compromise to those who disagree with that.

[...]

Prove this just because they have the service doesnt mean lots of people use it

The fact that Turbine felt a need to create the service says that a significant portion of the vet population was willing to pay money to NOT play 28s again.
Which discredits the argument that vets see no real diff between 28s and 32s.

And yes, I'm repeating the same point because you failed to address it.

Because you say its out dated doesn't make it so.

The 1750 favor reward used to include new character slots. It no longer does. Hence its outdated.

[Uska]

Perhaps I didn't make myself clear. Its not about whether I prefer to zerg. The issue is that the current favor system encourages new players to fall into a zerging experience that diminishes the flavor of the game. Here's another example from a vet upthread:

"We had a newcomer in our guild lately and we rushed him through catacombs elite and other such quests to bring him to 400 favor, and then told him to create himself a nice drow character, and suggested he play him to 1750 favor. It was not difficult at all to do, but as I was helping rushing him to 400 favor, all I could think was how lame was the game to push people to give newcomers such a rushed and uninspired first glimpse of adventure."

Consider, this is your first experience with DDO:

"the need to finish out 1750 favor so I could start rolling up new toons resulted in many zerg groups with new players like me just trying to keep up and not take a wrong turn [which usually resulted in death]. Sometimes we banded together - 3 of us trying to figure out the map [The Pit, ughhh] while the rest of the party fought monsters and had fun. Each quest was a flash of broken crates and open portals as I rushed to catch up. Hardly learned anything about the quests or the DDO mechanics along the way."

As a new player, would you have been more likely or less likely to stick around?

[...]



Never said anything about vets killing the game. And the 06 tag is from a trial accout when my machine didn't have enough ram to play [this forum account was created to troubleshoot the problem and remained when I finally installed the game on a new machine]. I've been playing since Sept of last year, and just started my first 32pt last month. Of course, I expected someone like you to play that card. Get back to me when you're done with the silly personal attacks and ready to attack my argument instead.



I've already said the fix was to open 32s to new players. The idea of lowering the favor cap was presented as a compromise to those who disagree with that.

[...]



The fact that Turbine felt a need to create the service says that a significant portion of the vet population was willing to pay money to NOT play 28s again. Which discredits the argument that vets see no real diff between 28s and 32s.

And yes, I'm repeating the same point because you failed to address it.


The 1750 favor reward used to include new character slots. It no longer does. Hence its outdated.

The fact they created it doesnt equal lots of people using it thats silly the true reason they created it was just for the fact of transfering its self as most mmo's have this and they all charge for it period. You still provide no proof that it is commonly used I addressed it you didnt.

[Fenrisulven6]

The fact they created it doesnt equal lots of people using it thats silly the true reason they created it was just for the fact of transfering itself as most mmo's have this and they all charge for it period.

Since you demanded proof from me, I'm sure you're able to present proof of that...?

You still provide no proof that it is commonly used I addressed it you didnt.

The fact that Turbine felt a need to create the service proves that a significant portion of the vet population was willing to pay money to NOT play 28s again.

Which discredits the argument that vets see no real diff between 28s and 32s.

Do you dispute that vets are paying cash to not play 28s?

[Uska]

Since you demanded proof from me, I'm sure you're able to present proof of that...?



The fact that Turbine felt a need to create the service proves that a significant portion of the vet population was willing to pay money to NOT play 28s again.

Which discredits the argument that vets see no real diff between 28s and 32s.

Do you dispute that vets are paying cash to not play 28s?

No I dont dispute that some are just that is a significant number your just pulling that out of the air I am not the only old timer here who stated that I have never done that, but nice use of circular logic by that I mean if the service exists lots of people must use it Transfers existed before 1750 the fact that you could use it to get 32pts on another server was a bad idea I think but it is there so ahh well.

[Fenrisulven6]

No I dont dispute that some are just that is a significant number.

Well Uska, the line of argument is that newbs like me don't realize there's no significant difference between 28s and 32s. And yet there are vets out there who know as much as you and would rather pay money to play 32s than start over with 28s.

[Uska]

Well Uska, the line of argument is that newbs like me don't realize there's no significant difference between 28s and 32s. And yet there are vets out there who know as much as you and would rather pay to play 32s than start over with 28s.

yah some but still no proof that its a sidnificant number of people I would rather spend that 25 bucks on something else myself, and in this economy right now I bet a lot more people feel the same.

[Fenrisulven6]

Uska, you do realize that the ONLY intent behind opening up 32s to new blood is to retain new players so that you and I have more peeps to group with for the next 2-3 years?

Since you're concerned about the economy, don't you think that we're likely to lose vets as families re-evaluate the money they budget for entertainment?

So why not be pro-active in making changes that prevent new players from dropping the game? At least keep them around long enough to get addicted?

[Uska]

Uska, you do realize that the ONLY intent behind opening up 32s to new blood is to retain new players so that you and I have more peeps to group with for the next 2-3 years?

Since you're concerned about the economy, don't you think that we're likely to lose vets as families re-evaluate the money they budget for entertainment?

So why not be pro-active in making changes that prevent new players from dropping the game? At least keep them around long enough to get addicted?

because I dont think it will I think the goal of reaching it is more likely to keep them around.

[Suzaku]

because I dont think it will I think the goal of reaching it is more likely to keep them around.

from personal experience I have to disagree, I quit multiple times and the biggest reason quit was I still running around as 28 build being powered level or running lower level quest to gain favor so I can unlock a character that is of equal starting standing.

No I have done grinds before I have multiple level 75 jobs in FFXI (8) with a second character that had 2 level 75 jobs (aka class). And FFXI was more of a grind to level in DDO so it wasn't the grinding. I'm not even talking about equipment grinding which can take months and maybe even a couple of years (read about Red Mage or RDM relic/af2 hat), and oh there are other gear that uses the same slot that takes just as long to acquire.

So it wasn't the grinding that turned me off but the fact that no matter what you do you'll always be second fiddle even if you have the same user skill and same gear. Don't get me wrong obtaining 32 build was a huge relief and satisfaction, but that is mostly because I can now abandon my current character and not feel it would waste the current favor I have and also I get to start on an equal footing. Which means I can now focus on my character and not be worried about wasted bind equipment.

[Uska]

from personal experience I have to disagree, I quit multiple times and the biggest reason quit was I still running around as 28 build being powered level or running lower level quest to gain favor so I can unlock a character that is of equal starting standing.

No I have done grinds before I have multiple level 75 jobs in FFXI (8) with a second character that had 2 level 75 jobs (aka class). And FFXI was more of a grind to level in DDO so it wasn't the grinding. I'm not even talking about equipment grinding which can take months and maybe even a couple of years (read about Red Mage or RDM relic/af2 hat), and oh there are other gear that uses the same slot that takes just as long to acquire.

So it wasn't the grinding that turned me off but the fact that no matter what you do you'll always be second fiddle even if you have the same user skill and same gear. Don't get me wrong obtaining 32 build was a huge relief and satisfaction, but that is mostly because I can now abandon my current character and not feel it would waste the current favor I have and also I get to start on an equal footing. Which means I can now focus on my character and not be worried about wasted bind equipment.

Well my most powerful character is the one I made on feb 24 06 a 28pt cleric who yes mabye I could have stated better but I made him like a pnp character but he is my best and not due to gear I just play him better for some reason, only has 1 +2 tome on him and just raid gear from the reaver and velah and not much of that, anyways I will never reroll Uska and keep playing him. We just dont agree on this topic and thats cool, anyways if hitting 32pters keeps you around longer good I just dont really think giving this away will keep new players around if they are that picky they wont stay long anways.


I am glad we can have a civil talk about this unlike a couple of others who I have put on ignore.

[Deadz]

Alright: my last post was very half asleep.. it's now redone..

1) the argument should be about the pro's and con's of making a change versus Turbine's subscriptions numbers..
ALL the bickering is just bickering for the sake of bickering.. It's not whether the new player deserves it or not.

2) bringing 3.5 dm guide rules is BS, this is not PnP this is DDO.. you want a PnP like dungeons and dragons games, go play temple of elemental evil with mods (seriously3 great PnP like game)

3) From my experiences of TALKING to a lot of new players, it seems the system is more a turn off then turn on, if you see it otherwise plainly state it, but saying it's in some people's heads, or they shouldn't play then, or saying if you do A) they will want B and C and D.. is silly. An arguement like "well, yeah it might turn off the new player, but it keeps more old players, and here is why" well, that is productive..Saying, i hate you and want to toss insults cause i got nothing better to add, is ridiculous

4)*shrugs*

5) I ran delaras on elite finally , was fun, got voice of the master.

6) cheeseburgers are good with A-1 sause.

[krud]

Well Uska, the line of argument is that newbs like me don't realize there's no significant difference between 28s and 32s. And yet there are vets out there who know as much as you and would rather pay money to play 32s than start over with 28s.

Maybe they feel once is enough. Just because they don't feel like doing it an additional time does not mean they had a bad time getting the favor the first time around, or dissapprove of the current favor reward.

Would any of you mind if the grind to 1750 actually helped the particular character that did the grind, so they would not need to be rerolled? or do you just not like the idea of any favor grind?

The idea of giving 28pt characters a +1 ability raise upon reaching 1750 would sufficiently address the issue. Why not get behind that idea? That seems like it would take care of most of the problems you people seem to have with the 1750 reward.

[Deadz]

Would any of you mind if the grind to 1750 actually helped the particular character that did the grind, so they would not need to be rerolled?

.

Yeah that's my issue 100% with the 28 / 32point builds.. so yeah, i wouldn't mind the grind nearly as much.

[sjwalker1973]

Yeah that's my issue 100% with the 28 / 32point builds.. so yeah, i wouldn't mind the grind nearly as much.

Given that typically Mods have been comming out at a rate of one every 3 to 6 months, that is a fairly significant timeframe to be grinding in. You could max your favor in that time with little or no effort. Gaining favor in this game is very easy. You could probably do it in a month's worth of weekend play with the right group pounding out the quests.

They put the point build upgrade into the Favor reward system to make grinding more attractive and provide something other than House equipment, buffs, unique items. That's why it's there.

Oh and 32 point builds ARE NOT STANDARD. I shouldn't have to keep repeating myself on this. Pick up a 3.5 DMG and read it before opening your mouth and making a comment on something you haven't researched. 32 pt builds are for high powered games. It states so in the OPTIONAL point buy system in the 3.5 DMG. The standard is 28pt builds. The point buy system is not in the 3.5 PHB. Stats are typically generated by Die rolls in PnP and not point buys. Point buy system is used mainly in Living Campaigns run by the RPGA and are a standard for those campaigns ONLY. The point buy system provides a fair system of generating stats considering Die rolls are so arbitrary. It provides a level of game balance to the mechanics of the game.

I haven't looked up 4.0 rules yet so I don't know what the point buy system is like there or if anything has changed at all. But DDO is based on 3.5 D and D rules and that's the decision they made when developing the game.

[TheGreatEye]

I always felt (or at least hoped) that DDO was about getting to the adventure and having fun MMO. Certainly there have been elements that have been added over the years that strongly resemble the grinding that is present in other MMO's. To me, the favor system is grinding.

That being said, I can see the benefits of asking players to try all the content in the game instead of always taking the path of highest xp to cap. However, asking players to run the majority of content on elite to get to 1750 is excessive. Unless someone can enlighten me on how they felt that process enriched their gaming experience, I will continue to base my opinion on how I felt about joining and forming favor run groups. To me it felt too much like work.

As I stated above, I agree that a 32 pt build wont make you a better player. Pretty irrelevant really, but I agree. However, one of the main reason I prefer games like DDO is character customization and maximizing your characters stats, abilities, and equipment. Unless you are an extremely casual player, everyone does this to some extent. So from that view point, 4pts. are 4pts. and it does matter. If it didnt, tomes wouldnt be worth a ****, people wouldn't bother training the stat enhancement lines, and perhaps most notably, people wouldnt be passionately responding to threads on the subject.

I have 28pt builds and I am not really concerned whether others just starting the game have to do the same. I would like to see more people playing and STAYING. If there are things the dev team can do to make DDO more enjoyable, by all means do it.

[Arianrhod]

Oh and 32 point builds ARE NOT STANDARD. I shouldn't have to keep repeating myself on this. Pick up a 3.5 DMG and read it before opening your mouth and making a comment on something you haven't researched. 32 pt builds are for high powered games. It states so in the OPTIONAL point buy system in the 3.5 DMG. The standard is 28pt builds.

Maybe the reason people are ignoring this argument is that we're talking about DDO here, not Living Greyhawk, etc. In DDO, it is common for 2nd level characters to have +2 items, and 8th level characters to have +5 items. Higher level characters have complete stes of "power 10" weapons (vorpals/banishers/etc.). Casters can routinely do triple digit damage, healers can heal almost that much. DDO is a high powered campaign. Period.