Warlock NERF Again

[2pc2]

It started with the introduction of bravery bonus in September 2011; see http://ddowiki.com/page/Bravery_Bonus. MOTU was released in 2012. By then elite was the default difficulty.

That's only true for heroic. When Motu came out EE was not the default difficulty for everyone, when epic gianthold EE was not the default difficulty every pug ran, when high road and shadowfell was released EE was not the default difficulty every pug ran, it was EH and stayed that way till the last class revamp and got only worse and out of control with warlocks.

[2pc2]

Subjective. I joined a years before MotU and as a noob, There were less lfm on hard and me partially challenged even with normal. The average pug was Elite. The class revamp was certainly the biggest boost due to transparency.from that point on, i saw not hing else thanks elite.

LOL. Either you are talking about another game or you never ran non heroic content

[Whitering]

Subjective. I joined a years before MotU and as a noob, There were less lfm on hard and me partially challenged even with normal. The average pug was Elite. The class revamp was certainly the biggest boost due to transparency.from that point on, i saw not hing else thanks elite.

People who post Epic Elite groups know how to do the quest, are normally speed runners or people who just gank the quest, and completionists trying to ETR or something. Make sure you have good defenses, some speed boost if you want to grab the chests, and hop on for the ride, help if you can, generally, they don't need it.

The dailies are done on Elite because everyone knows how to do them (run them a few times on normal/hard if you need to learn them).

When Reaper difficulty comes out, we will never see these people again lol

[Forzah]

That's only true for heroic. When Motu came out EE was not the default difficulty for everyone, when epic gianthold EE was not the default difficulty every pug ran, when high road and shadowfell was released EE was not the default difficulty every pug ran, it was EH and stayed that way till the last class revamp and got only worse and out of control with warlocks.

Sorry for the misunderstanding. I didn't understand you were talking about epic quests.

[2pc2]

People who post Epic Elite groups know how to do the quest, are normally speed runners or people who just gank the quest, and completionists trying to ETR or something. Make sure you have good defenses, some speed boost if you want to grab the chests, and hop on for the ride, help if you can, generally, they don't need it.

The dailies are done on Elite because everyone knows how to do them (run them a few times on normal/hard if you need to learn them).

When Reaper difficulty comes out, we will never see these people again lol

I think you're a bit too optimistic here. How many of those players are in the game right now? A lot.

This players got used during the last 2 years to run the max difficulty setting with zero skill and effort by either being carried or playing warlocks and some other broken builds that were handed to them. This players will demand the same for every new difficulty they release ( and this thread is proof of that ) they will cry till the difficulty is lowered to a point they can complete easy or they will demand an easy button build to be handed to them to run it with zero effort.

This is a huge amount of the playerbase, much more numerous than powergamers, do you think they will do a new difficulty that disgusts this ppl and lose a lot of potential money and players just to keep a few end gamers happy? I honestly don't think so.

[2pc2]

Sorry for the misunderstanding. I didn't understand you were talking about epic quests.

Thought as much, that's why I clarified. Old heroic content ( with a few exceptions) has been such a joke during the last years that almost anyone with any build can get it done or get easily carried. Epic was another matter and it was not till more recently that elite became the default difficulty for almost anyone, just like heroic has been for some years. There was streak already going on and yet most ppl ran EH by default, not because they didn't want to go on streak but because they could not get it done without some skill, teamplay or the help of more experienced players, as max difficulty setting should be IMO. Now any not so experienced player can roll a warlock and carry any group in any EE dungeon, why run lower than elite then if all that requires you is to use certain class or build ?

[slarden]

That's only true for heroic. When Motu came out EE was not the default difficulty for everyone, when epic gianthold EE was not the default difficulty every pug ran, when high road and shadowfell was released EE was not the default difficulty every pug ran, it was EH and stayed that way till the last class revamp and got only worse and out of control with warlocks.

I completed a PUG EE Chronoscope 2 days after motu came out and most people weren't at cap and still working on destinies. 1 guildy and 4 pugs completed the full motu EE 5 days after motu came out, but there was never a reason to run it EE after you had the favor for upgrading CITW weapons.

The reason people didn't run on EE more than once was because they were either focused on heroic TR or just wanted to fill EDs which involved mostly being in off-destinies. Once ETR came out I rarely saw groups running below EE except people running in off-destinies- usually doing "dailys". That is the main difference between heroic TR is that with epic TR you can't always run in your most powerful build. It didn't take long for people to optimize the quests on EE after ETR came out. Myself and Jurgi 2-manned everything for ETR even in off-destinies. It was never hard and long before warlocks people were crushing it.

eGH was a different story - it broke alot of builds (DC requirements, immunities, etc.) but monkchers and shiradi casters were much more dominant in those quests at the time than warlocks are today in end game quests. It's not even close. Monkchers were SOLOING ee Fall of Truth on day one. I had 40 EE FOT completions the first week (ability to run that easily on EE any build was largely due to safe spot bug).

It started with the introduction of bravery bonus in September 2011; see http://ddowiki.com/page/Bravery_Bonus. MOTU was released in 2012. By then elite was the default difficulty.

Yes and bravery bonus didn't matter as much on epic since it only applied to quests not run on heroic. Once ETR and especially sagas rewarded Elite the default difficulty once again became elite aside from "dailys".

[2pc2]

~sinp~

And what's the point? It's not about your imaginary uberness or imaginary uber friends who were doing imaginary cool things that almost no one at that time could do, and certainly not the average player. This is not about you... you seem to have a hard time to understand that...

Take slavers as example it was run from day 1 till TODAY by EVERYONE in LE only I have seen maybe a couple of LH groups and was during first days of release, 1/3 of them doing it on a warlock for obvious reasons...

Did it happen when Motu ? No. When epic gianthold? No. When shadowfell? No.

Most ppl were running it on EH not because they didn't want to run elite and get streak, more xp and favor, no; because most could not handle it. Some could, sure, but not everyone. We didn't see 1/3 of the players using the same class , we didn't see all groups doing EE from day 1 back then, most pugs in Epic gianthold era were EH with a few EE exceptions, beacuse it only makes sense that the average player can handle the average difficulty and get in troubles in higher ones, now the average player runs EE or LE only with a few EH or LH exceptions, and anyone who has played for the last 6 years has seen that happen, you can twist is as you like but the facts remain. And with warlocks it just went completly out of control

[GroundhogDay]

Did it happen when Motu ? No. When epic gianthold? No. When shadowfell? No

I didn't know that, between motu and now, the only feature added to the game was the warlock class.

Are you telling me that all those people posting screenshot on elite at the time were running warlocks? Then the problem becomes turbine releasing a class years in advance to a certain number of people. I can see why the nerf-warlock side is so frustrated now.

[slarden]

And what's the point? It's not about your imaginary uberness or imaginary uber friends who were doing imaginary cool things that almost no one at that time could do, and certainly not the average player. This is not about you... you seem to have a hard time to understand that...

Take slavers as example it was run from day 1 till TODAY by EVERYONE in LE only I have seen maybe a couple of LH groups and was during first days of release, 1/3 of them doing it on a warlock for obvious reasons...

Did it happen when Motu ? No. When epic gianthold? No. When shadowfell? No.

Most ppl were running it on EH not because they didn't want to run elite and get streak, more xp and favor, no; because most could not handle it. Some could, sure, but not everyone. We didn't see 1/3 of the players using the same class , we didn't see all groups doing EE from day 1 back then, most pugs in Epic gianthold era were EH with a few EE exceptions, beacuse it only makes sense that the average player can handle the average difficulty and get in troubles in higher ones, now the average player runs EE or LE only with a few EH or LH exceptions, and anyone who has played for the last 6 years has seen that happen, you can twist is as you like but the facts remain. And with warlocks it just went completly out of control

I already proved you wrong once - no need to prove you wrong any more. Never said I was uber, but uber people can complete this stuff easy too.

And you've already proved what you are and your skill level many times.

My imaginary uber friend is Jurgi and yes he is quite good. He said it's fine to use his name.

Many people joined Jurgi and I 2 man EE runs when ETR was new. So yes Shadowfell was brand new and I was not running fotm build but rather high DC wizard PM and he was running dps build (either shiradi or monkcher). Shadowfell was new and we ran ee high level quests daily because it was the only way to get coms. Those 2 were nice complimentary combo and at the time people thought I was using exploit because I was killing stuff in stormhorms other people couldn't get and it was only due to necromancy augmentation (which worked at the time) and other debuffing.

I helped many people get EE completions for motu when it was new on randowl (formerly owlander) with my PM CC and that made all those quests super easy when it was new with a few difficult fights where cc wasn't solid - end fight of part 3 demon web (not a problem due to safe spot) and belly of the best with orange named mobs in arena (easily handled with 1 monk EIN - I made sure we had one for that part to make it easy). Rest was no-fail cc even when the content was new. The stuff was not hard. Motu was new. How do you think all those people got their weapons upgraded? The thing is that was the ONLY reason to run it EE so that is why there weren't many lfms. They ran once and finished.

eGH was different my PM which dominated all content up to that point sucked in there. So I rerolled to shiradi. Then with one shiradi and one other solid build it was easy to kill stuff before it got to us. Alot of cc didn't work there but shiradi cc was still decent. Mostly everyone running Elite content at that time was shiradi or monkcher with a few healers and others. Build diversity in the most difficult content was much lower than it is today - it was basically 2 builds - shiradi and monkcher.

Most people were running EH for GH? yes - again there wasn't much reason to run EE when most people didn't run end game content for long and no bravery bonus for eGH. No sagas. No etr. That all changed when etr was introduced.

[Robbenklopper]

LOL. Either you are talking about another game or you never ran non heroic content

This was about heroics, yes. Of course i agree the most LFMs, which are the dailys, are ran EN (although it´s ridiculous and they can be run in a Party EH Close the same time).
Either it´s cheap-ass XP quick and dirty, or it´s EE for favor and 1st time Bonus. Something inbetween doesn´t seem to exist. And yes i run non heroic Content. The average (exclude dailys) pug, due to running in a Party, was still EE, for what to Party-Up else than this?

[Akhanus]

Id just like to point out. most people have 50 past lives, completionist 36 point builds with tomes and hand-me-down raid gear.

for new players, its nice to have a class option that isnt so hard to play. I dont want to play with others since anyone low level is usually on some kind of reincarnation, blitzes through the entire quest while i have no idea what were supposed to be doing or any of the story of the dungeon. thats the whole point of DDO. its a DnD game, true most people the magic has probably long since worn off, but dont ruin it for the rest of us.

so i play alone, and I dont have millions of bonuses or OP gear, and I dont know much about complicated build mechanics. so I can play a lock, and manage to do hard and some elite quests solo without crazy gear.


I know class balance affects everyone at all stages, but please give some thought to people who arent in the same situation as you. one of the major limitations to new players in DDO is the complexity needed to just not paint yourself into a corner and get facerolled at a certain level cause you built wrong or used a starter build.
in additon to the prohibitive nature of entry level DDO. most things are either locked behind a paywall, or locked behind huge time investments.

you dont want to get burned out "playing to unlock the ability to play the game" before you get a chance to really enjoy it

thats my 2 cents.

[NaturalHazard]

Id just like to point out. most people have 50 past lives, completionist 36 point builds with tomes and hand-me-down raid gear.

for new players, its nice to have a class option that isnt so hard to play. I dont want to play with others since anyone low level is usually on some kind of reincarnation, blitzes through the entire quest while i have no idea what were supposed to be doing or any of the story of the dungeon. thats the whole point of DDO. its a DnD game, true most people the magic has probably long since worn off, but dont ruin it for the rest of us.

so i play alone, and I dont have millions of bonuses or OP gear, and I dont know much about complicated build mechanics. so I can play a lock, and manage to do hard and some elite quests solo without crazy gear.


I know class balance affects everyone at all stages, but please give some thought to people who arent in the same situation as you. one of the major limitations to new players in DDO is the complexity needed to just not paint yourself into a corner and get facerolled at a certain level cause you built wrong or used a starter build.
in additon to the prohibitive nature of entry level DDO. most things are either locked behind a paywall, or locked behind huge time investments.

you dont want to get burned out "playing to unlock the ability to play the game" before you get a chance to really enjoy it

thats my 2 cents.

what about people like you who do not want to play a warlock, but would like to play a cleric or something? or a fighter?

[BigErkyKid]

Id just like to point out. most people have 50 past lives, completionist 36 point builds with tomes and hand-me-down raid gear.

for new players, its nice to have a class option that isnt so hard to play. I dont want to play with others since anyone low level is usually on some kind of reincarnation, blitzes through the entire quest while i have no idea what were supposed to be doing or any of the story of the dungeon. thats the whole point of DDO. its a DnD game, true most people the magic has probably long since worn off, but dont ruin it for the rest of us.

so i play alone, and I dont have millions of bonuses or OP gear, and I dont know much about complicated build mechanics. so I can play a lock, and manage to do hard and some elite quests solo without crazy gear.


I know class balance affects everyone at all stages, but please give some thought to people who arent in the same situation as you. one of the major limitations to new players in DDO is the complexity needed to just not paint yourself into a corner and get facerolled at a certain level cause you built wrong or used a starter build.
in additon to the prohibitive nature of entry level DDO. most things are either locked behind a paywall, or locked behind huge time investments.

you dont want to get burned out "playing to unlock the ability to play the game" before you get a chance to really enjoy it

thats my 2 cents.

what about people like you who do not want to play a warlock, but would like to play a cleric or something? or a fighter?

This.

Plus if you can't play elite, what's the shame? I can 100% guarantee that there is a difficulty currently in the game that would be easy enough for you to solo. No need of easy-mode classes for that.

Easymode classes / builds are a crouch for those playing ahead of their current skill level. While some might think this is good because it allows people to "keep up", I don't agree at all for reasons I have stated elsewhere many times.

[janave]

The main and primary problem is that old content has not been prepared or adjusted to warlock. New content on the other hand is being adjusted to warlocks, if you see recent content there is a strong pattern how mob packs are layed out, basically they are handed out for aoe bursts.

This puts players not playing a warlock at a huge disadvantage (probably wai as its a p2p feature after all).

Soloers dont experience the cooperative problems warlocks bring to the game, which i assume is primary a coop game, or so it used to be. If a single warlock can handle 80-90%% of the combat in a team with total ease under a few seconds, whats the rest of the party is doing then? New players are in fact affected by this, but on the other side, playing next to a warlock new or old player with another less effective character in a 100% combat quest is absolutely horrible experience, like "why i am even here?".

Since the fixes necessary on warlocks are scaling problems on the high end, it really doesn't affect new players that much. New players wouldn't notice the few percent less effectiveness, but on the high end that would be very significant.

The class totally ignores balance conventions like cost vs cooldown. Abilities are both cheap/free and are on very low CDs. They totally ignore maximum target limitations, and generally AoE vs Single target balance on the same class is way off.

Compare the Druid Sunburst SLA to the Warlock SLAs for example, or to the Sun Elf variant which is more recent.

Long term players lose faith when things like this can go live. (not to mention the new stacks of uberness the caster pass buffed on them)

[BigErkyKid]

The main and primary problem is that old content has not been prepared or adjusted to warlock. New content on the other hand is being adjusted to warlocks, if you see recent content there is a strong pattern how mob packs are layed out, basically they are handed out for aoe bursts.
...
The class totally ignores balance conventions like cost vs cooldown. Abilities are both cheap/free and are on very low CDs. They totally ignore maximum target limitations, and generally AoE vs Single target balance on the same class is way off.
...
Long term players lose faith when things like this can go live. (not to mention the new stacks of uberness the caster pass buffed on them)

+ 1 and +rep. This is important, specially the losing faith part. Which is now more relevant than ever since the new company needs to establish a track record of good management.

I am going to shift all the guilt baggage Turbine had on LOTRO and DDO to WB, assuming it was them pressuring. Now please start clean and nice with your new indie studio, devs!

[Whitethorn1]

Well, I paid full price for the Warlock when it first came out. As i do for all the new items that come out.

So here is my Idea ******* Sure you can nerf my purchase because some other player is jealous . Either because I have something equal to or slightly better than they do, that I paid for. Just refund me some of my TPs when you do . Just take TPs from those wanting things nerfed and add it back into my account. That way it is fair all around . Both sides lose something, and DDO keeps funding so the game can go on. ********

By the way there is a Storage Room in the caverns of Slavers part 2, Full of cheese for those who run around with backpacks full of ''' wine '''.

[NaturalHazard]

Well, I paid full price for the Warlock when it first came out. As i do for all the new items that come out.

So here is my Idea ******* Sure you can nerf my purchase because some other player is jealous . Either because I have something equal to or slightly better than they do, that I paid for. Just refund me some of my TPs when you do . Just take TPs from those wanting things nerfed and add it back into my account. That way it is fair all around . Both sides lose something, and DDO keeps funding so the game can go on. ********

By the way there is a Storage Room in the caverns of Slavers part 2, Full of cheese for those who run around with backpacks full of ''' wine '''.

When they nerfed arti and monk no one was refunded so I doubt if they nerf warlock anyone will be, it was funny how some have done a 190 on nerfs, some now crying don't touch my warlock, were screaming blue murder about monks, monks and paladin splashes a few years back. Then the arti thing. If you bought into the class for an easy button expecting it to last forever you probably have not played this game long or you were not very observant in the past. Your better off putting your faith in non WAI bugs for your power builds in terms of it not getting *fixed* at a later date lol.

[LavidDynch]

When they nerfed arti and monk no one was refunded so I doubt if they nerf warlock anyone will be, it was funny how some have done a 190 on nerfs, some now crying don't touch my warlock, were screaming blue murder about monks, monks and paladin splashes a few years back. Then the arti thing. If you bought into the class for an easy button expecting it to last forever you probably have not played this game long or you were not very observant in the past. Your better off putting your faith in non WAI bugs for your power builds in terms of it not getting *fixed* at a later date lol.

They could have given the massive amount of 2 active 'QP monks' on Ghallanda +20 TR hearts, appearantly they were too OP....

[Whitethorn1]

When they nerfed arti and monk no one was refunded so I doubt if they nerf warlock anyone will be, it was funny how some have done a 190 on nerfs, some now crying don't touch my warlock, were screaming blue murder about monks, monks and paladin splashes a few years back. Then the arti thing. If you bought into the class for an easy button expecting it to last forever you probably have not played this game long or you were not very observant in the past. Your better off putting your faith in non WAI bugs for your power builds in terms of it not getting *fixed* at a later date lol.

I've been playing DDO since 2009. I got into the forums in 2013. I have seen the things on arti and monk that you mentioned as well.( as I purchased them too ) I've seen lots of complaining about new stuff. It seems that most of it is on purchased items, classes, etc.. Remember there were issues with Druids as well after they came out. I really enjoy TWF Rangers Or Stick Rouges myself. Although I've purchased almost everything ( I did get Drow on favor). I also carry VIP on my alt account. So as to help support the game. I'm just being cynical saying if they're going to lessen my stuff because of the crying, then reimburse me with the crying party's stuff. I'm just tired of seeing folks trying to ruin other people's fun is all.