Warlock NERF Again

[Wipey]

Warlocks are clearly over-represented but I see many builds still. Barbarians soloing slavers even.

Your point is ?
I was just reacting to page of posts of you two Sarlonians telling person with possibly best palemaster gameplay ever how he's "doing it wrong" and how his server must be really different and from your posts one would think that Salorna is full of those "easy button" wizards and sorcs.

[Chai]

Your point is ?
I was just reacting to page of posts of you two Sarlonians telling person with possibly best palemaster gameplay ever how he's "doing it wrong" and how his server must be really different and from your posts one would think that Salorna is full of those "easy button" wizards and sorcs.

Much confusion in these nerf request threads between: time to refine to top tier -and- character power.

The entire reason warlock is being called "easy button" (and the reason shiradi was called easy button in the past) is because of the much smaller amount of time needed to make it LE viable. People making the OP claims are simply incorrect. See below.

God mode and easy button aren't the same thing. PMs can be god mode but it takes a longer time (or more paying into the system to circumvent the time needed) to refine the PLs to make the character powerful. An easy button is something you can roll up right now and its good straight out the gates.

Since those who are demanding nerfs the loudest do not want to sound like they have an issue with the time consumption factor, they avoid making correct claims (I had to consume the time while the warlock player didn't) and instead make incorrect claims (warlock is more DPS than everything else) and repeat those incorrect claims to the point where they believe the devs have to listen to them and nerf the class.

What they fail to see is warlock is just another way to pay to circumvent having to grind a lot to make a character LE viable, and while the devs may toss a few token nerfs on it in attempt to placate some of the loudest nerf demanders, they will not nerf it to the point where it isn't an easy button which requires very little refinement to make LE viable, as that would be against the REVENUE GENERATION MODEL CHOSEN BY THE COMPANY AND SUPPORTED HAND OVER FIST BY MANY OF THE SAME PEOPLE DEMANDING NERFS RECENTLY in previous discussions over years of time

[Chai]

It's not a casual friendy class is an elite friendly class and that's the problem. There is a difficulty called casual for casual players there is no need for en easy button class.
Warlock allows casual players to play in the top difficulty just fine even if they don't develop any skill and game knowlage or they don't bother gearing or getting some past lifes, we may as well get rid of hard, normal and casual dificulty if everyone is allowed to play a class that can do elite just fine with 0 effort. When they reselase reaper they better do 10 skull difficulty only if they are going to handle casual players a build or class to run max difficulty setting easy with zero effort, like we have now.

Now if you put such a class in the hands of a skilled and expericnced player with all his past life and gear it will make the hardest content a joke even if it's not a joke for other classes, unless they make that content ridiculously difficult with stupid mechanics no one likes, like 1 shotting ppl. Because if they don't do that way that class would be unkillable in the hands of top players, this resulting in the game unplayable for certain classes on top difficulty unless you do it for flavor or too easy for everyone playing that OP class.

Warlock allows ppl to skip all the learning process, how can we have a challenging or intersting game that way?

Elite has been the default difficulty since 2011 or so. The "learning process" hasn't been much of a factor for 5 years. Those of you who shout down content balance in favor of nerfing one class here or there have ensured that will remain in place for the rest of this games lifespan.

[slarden]

Your point is ?
I was just reacting to page of posts of you two Sarlonians telling person with possibly best palemaster gameplay ever how he's "doing it wrong" and how his server must be really different and from your posts one would think that Salorna is full of those "easy button" wizards and sorcs.

Again, if you are comparing power you need to compare builds with optimized characters having the right past lifes, gear and build selections. There aren't many people playing the most powerful builds. Top builds based on power include wizard, warlock, sorc, thrower, mechanic, kensai, tree, druid, etc. Most people playing warlock aren't at or near the highest power level. I throw them raises all the time.

If you want to compare popularity you look at how many people are playing it. Power isn't the only reason people play a build - it's also played because how easy it is to learn, how easy it is gear up and how easy it is to play. Warlock is an easy class to play which is why I see so many. I see plenty of sorcs and wizards on Sarlona. I assume the devs can check those type of metrics without relying on forum opinion, but clearly warlocks are more popular at the moment. If you look at just the top sarlona characters you see less warlocks as a percentage.

If the devs want to compare power I already provided 2 of my warlock and 2 of my wizard builds for comparison. At the top level they are all equally powerful.

[Wipey]

I see plenty of sorcs and wizards on Sarlona.

Sarlona right now ( 12:24 GMT )

29 warlocks, 2 "easy button" sorcs. Please continue. At this point I am not arguing with you anymore, just don't understand why are you making stuff up.

[Ellihor]

Yep, when a stick of dynamite would do the trick people are demanding a nerf of the 2 kiloton nuke because its more powerful than the 1.8 kiloton nuke which came before it.

How many times was that old easy thing demanded nerfs, and how many time did those nerf demands succeed in getting it nerfed.

Right, blame the players for DEVs incompetency, why not?!

Had paladins not been nerfed they would be closer to top of the current meta.
Had bards not been nerfed they would be closer to top of the current meta.
Had barbarians not been nerfed they would be closer to top of the current meta.

Had they not been nerfed, they would all be beyond broken, like the top of current meta. Now they're just broken. I think it's fair to ask first to nerf the beyond broken at least to the level of the only broken, before nerfing the latter. Don't you agree?

[Duetotheseverity]

[slarden]

Sarlona right now ( 12:24 GMT )

29 warlocks, 2 "easy button" sorcs. Please continue. At this point I am not arguing with you anymore, just don't understand why are you making stuff up.

Already showed a screenshow proving how ridiculous your 90% argument is. Nobody is arguing warlocks aren't more common - just not more powerful. As I said, I don't offer words, I offer up my 2 warlocks and 2 wizards up for the devs to test and compare in LE shroud, LE tempest spine and LE slavers. If you want to offer up your op warlock for comparison purposes that might be good.

I don't care that casual players find playing a warlock easier. It doesn't impact my play.

[nokowi]

Your point is ?
I was just reacting to page of posts of you two Sarlonians telling person with possibly best palemaster gameplay ever how he's "doing it wrong" and how his server must be really different and from your posts one would think that Salorna is full of those "easy button" wizards and sorcs.

If that's what you got out of the thread, maybe you should try reading again.

My posts can be summarized as
1. I have no problem contributing to groups with Warlocks in them on a tier 2 melee rogue
2. I see that they are a popular build
3. I don't see them doing any better or worse (in a group!) than other top builds
4. All of the posts using soloability and applying it to groups are garbage

If you want to try and make over generalizations to justify your own opinions, you have already left the discussion.

Other servers are likely no better or worse when you look at top players.

[nokowi]

Sarlona right now ( 12:24 GMT )

29 warlocks, 2 "easy button" sorcs. Please continue. At this point I am not arguing with you anymore, just don't understand why are you making stuff up.

Of course Warlock is easier than sorc.

The correct question is:
1. Are people that play sorc enjoying it?
2. Can it be effective in top content?
3. For what reasons are people choosing not to play sorcerer

Its convenient to avoid these questions and look at number of players on a build, but that doesn't help your argument.

The idea that any class that is popular to play needs a nerf is a fail from conception.

Only if 1 and 2 are missing does a class need a change.

Relative ease of play doesn't matter, because game design needs to include options for players who don't want the easy button.

[Altamedes]

Sarlona right now ( 12:24 GMT )

29 warlocks, 2 "easy button" sorcs. Please continue. At this point I am not arguing with you anymore, just don't understand why are you making stuff up.

Maybe it's just a "characteristic" of players on Sarlona that leads players to run Warlock so much. Every server certainly has it's own personality, so to speak. On G-land, there's a WIDE variety of epic builds and level 30 toons. I run Slavers daily, and I run with all kinds of builds. Doesn't mean all of them contribute meaningfully, but people are running every class. Seen plenty of Warlocks. Honestly, half of them don't finish in the top half of kills, but at least they're not dying all the time. The most OP builds I've seen are shiradi spammers, by far. Doesn't matter if their survivability compared to warlock is lower if they are killing 200k hp bosses in 6-10 seconds.

Nearly all of this thread is anecdotal, so I figure why not add my own experiences too.

[Chai]

Right, blame the players for DEVs incompetency, why not?!

If the players don't support it, it doesn't work. So yes, Im blaming the correct party here. You are not.

Had they not been nerfed, they would all be beyond broken, like the top of current meta. Now they're just broken. I think it's fair to ask first to nerf the beyond broken at least to the level of the only broken, before nerfing the latter. Don't you agree?

Nope. Because I have the ability to see past one update, while those demanding nerfs of this new thing clearly demonstrated they are unwilling to.

Also: The claim that paladins, bards or barbarians are broken and OP in the current era is vastly incorrect. Not only that, but demanding nerfs of those in the name of game balance while not being willing to discuss the real OP builds of that era is sheer hypocrisy. All demanding nerfs of t2 builds while not being willing to discuss the power of t1 builds did was increase the gap between t1 and t2.

So yes, it is the players fault. It is the players feedback the devs responded to. Its the players who supported selling character power. Now the end result, a bought and paid for class (buying character power supported hand over fist by the players) being OP due to the perception that nothing which was nerfed in the past (which players advocated those nerfs of ) can stand up to - is indeed 100% the players fault.

Stop advocating these things, and the devs will stop giving them to you.

In other words - be careful what you ask for....

[nokowi]

Maybe it's just a "characteristic" of players on Sarlona that leads players to run Warlock so much. Every server certainly has it's own personality, so to speak. On G-land, there's a WIDE variety of epic builds and level 30 toons. I run Slavers daily, and I run with all kinds of builds. Doesn't mean all of them contribute meaningfully, but people are running every class. Seen plenty of Warlocks. Honestly, half of them don't finish in the top half of kills, but at least they're not dying all the time. The most OP builds I've seen are shiradi spammers, by far. Doesn't matter if their survivability compared to warlock is lower if they are killing 200k hp bosses in 6-10 seconds.

Nearly all of this thread is anecdotal, so I figure why not add my own experiences too.

I read this as a comparison of 2 builds, not all builds on the server.

Many who used to play Sorc are definitely in Warlock now.

The real question is if Sorc play offers anything unique that players value.

[Nestroy]

If the players don't support it, it doesn't work. So yes, Im blaming the correct party here. You are not.



Nope. Because I have the ability to see past one update, while those demanding nerfs of this new thing clearly demonstrated they are unwilling to.

Also: The claim that paladins, bards or barbarians are broken and OP in the current era is vastly incorrect. Not only that, but demanding nerfs of those in the name of game balance while not being willing to discuss the real OP builds of that era is sheer hypocrisy. All demanding nerfs of t2 builds while not being willing to discuss the power of t1 builds did was increase the gap between t1 and t2.

So yes, it is the players fault. It is the players feedback the devs responded to. Its the players who supported selling character power. Now the end result, a bought and paid for class (buying character power supported hand over fist by the players) being OP due to the perception that nothing which was nerfed in the past (which players advocated those nerfs of ) can stand up to - is indeed 100% the players fault.

Stop advocating these things, and the devs will stop giving them to you.

In other words - be careful what you ask for....

The same story, Paladin post pass, Bard post pass, Barbarian post pass, WL (from the beginning) all were classes / builds handing out sheer power w/o needing to grind the way you need to grind to make e.g. DC casting working. Basically, Turbine was on a good way to make life for casual players easier in elite content, only to adapt to the power creep with newer content (and making mobs and bosses there riddiculously OP in the process). Then the protest fest in the forums has been beginning and the devs have been wielding in and in the end all the casual friendly easy buttons have been gotten demoted. Still powerful, but only half of what it has been before. Then the next pass has been done and all the gamers have been flocking to the newly reformed classes and the whole process has started anew.

Still in the dev doghouse, tho: Artificer, Cleric, Wizards, Sorcs (to some extend). Fighters never made it out of the dogshed even after the pass (mainly due to lackluster self healing w/o twisted fates). Wizard and Sorc beeing the classes needing most investment to work in endgame, currently.

What I am looking forward to is a Wiz and Sorc pass. Will we see the same people demanding nerfs vocally in the forums here too, demanding a nerf-back of Wiz and Sorc classes, when they get their OP-ness, I wonder? Or, what I expect, will we see a lot of happy players polishing up their highly invested casters? If later becomes fact, please devs un-do all the nerfs on the other classes. Or we will be back in 2009-2012 when only Wiz and Sorc were roflstomping high end content.

[BigErkyKid]

all were classes / builds handing out sheer power w/o needing to grind the way you need to grind to make e.g. DC casting working. Basically, Turbine was on a good way to make life for casual players easier in elite content, only to adapt to the power creep with newer content (and making mobs and bosses there riddiculously OP in the process).

I find the idea that casual players need to be able to play elite content shortsighted. This might be true in heroics, but certainly not in epics. When I started playing epics more seriously we were already in the EN/EH/EE era. EE was serious business for the rookies, and no one was ashamed of doing EH. If anything, I think that EH should have been a tad harder, leaving EN for the rookies, EH for those a bit more experienced, and EE for good parties. This was true for even mid level epics on capped toons.

Handing out builds that obliterated EE has not done anything good for the game. Now players have a much reduced space to grow in skill, game knowledge, and character progression. A capped toon can destroy most epic content in EE without needing top of the line gear or skill.

Then the protest fest in the forums has been beginning and the devs have been wielding in and in the end all the casual friendly easy buttons have been gotten demoted. Still powerful, but only half of what it has been before. Then the next pass has been done and all the gamers have been flocking to the newly reformed classes and the whole process has started anew.

This wasn't exactly like that. For a while the devs handed truckloads of power to every class they touched. Its not that they released rookie friendly builds per se, rather that they overpowered anything they touched. Bard, paladin, barbarian, mechanic, ranger, warlock. Those were leaps in power. It just bumped upwards the power for everyone, not just for rookies. And thus, in the process they trivialized some content and limited the growth space for players.

What I am looking forward to is a Wiz and Sorc pass. Will we see the same people demanding nerfs vocally in the forums here too, demanding a nerf-back of Wiz and Sorc classes, when they get their OP-ness, I wonder? Or, what I expect, will we see a lot of happy players polishing up their highly invested casters? If later becomes fact, please devs un-do all the nerfs on the other classes. Or we will be back in 2009-2012 when only Wiz and Sorc were roflstomping high end content.

I don't see it as a battle of veterans vs the rest, as you seem to do. I see it as some classes being just more efficient at playing the game than others. My current ranger is much more powerful than a simple CON based warlock at its peak, but it is not as efficient in farming content. With ToEE starting the trend, and then slavers, a lot of powerful gear is in quests. This means that having a fast speed + AOE damage toon is invaluable.

It will be far easier for someone with a warlock to acquire the slavers items, and any quest gear, and keep up with the power frontier. Given the rate at which things become obsolete in the game this is increasingly important. So easy button is not just easy to play, but also less risky and more powerful in a lot of content. Let it be slavers farming or the XP hamster wheel. That's why we have a super population of warlocks.

I think that this highlights two problems. First that it is difficult to manage the power of magic. A good blaster warlock might not be the most optimal raiding build, but it certainly outpaces tremendously any melee toon in a quest. So where is the tipping point, and how to put both builds together in a raiding and a questing party and have they play nicely together. This is important in moving forward with the upcoming caster updates.

Second, we need to wonder why "efficient warlocks" are so freaking prevalent. And for this we need to go back to the reward systems in the game. A lot of it consists in farming easy content: PLs, ePLs, slavers (toee before). This is the game that a lot of people play and nothing beats warlock at that. The more grindy the game is, and the more that it is in quest-like design (as opposed to raids), the more that people gravitate towards the so called easy buttons.

Finally, there is also the issue of balance between "legit builds" and "exploiters". The new uber shiradi spammers, tree builds, and to a lesser extent shuriken and wolfexploit builds, are miles ahead of any traditional build. To the point that if you want to play the game competitively, there seems to be no reason not to gravitate towards them. I see this as a problem. Not only it seems impossible to balance the game properly between those power builds and the rest, but also because those builds break completely the concept of cooperation. Cooperation requires weaknesses and those builds overpower brutally content.

[Chai]

The same story, Paladin post pass, Bard post pass, Barbarian post pass, WL (from the beginning) all were classes / builds handing out sheer power w/o needing to grind the way you need to grind to make e.g. DC casting working. Basically, Turbine was on a good way to make life for casual players easier in elite content, only to adapt to the power creep with newer content (and making mobs and bosses there riddiculously OP in the process). Then the protest fest in the forums has been beginning and the devs have been wielding in and in the end all the casual friendly easy buttons have been gotten demoted. Still powerful, but only half of what it has been before. Then the next pass has been done and all the gamers have been flocking to the newly reformed classes and the whole process has started anew.

Still in the dev doghouse, tho: Artificer, Cleric, Wizards, Sorcs (to some extend). Fighters never made it out of the dogshed even after the pass (mainly due to lackluster self healing w/o twisted fates). Wizard and Sorc beeing the classes needing most investment to work in endgame, currently.

What I am looking forward to is a Wiz and Sorc pass. Will we see the same people demanding nerfs vocally in the forums here too, demanding a nerf-back of Wiz and Sorc classes, when they get their OP-ness, I wonder? Or, what I expect, will we see a lot of happy players polishing up their highly invested casters? If later becomes fact, please devs un-do all the nerfs on the other classes. Or we will be back in 2009-2012 when only Wiz and Sorc were roflstomping high end content.

When artificer came out it was very powerful in that meta. That meta is long gone, however the devs did have the same marketing conundrum then too. Make arty good and people will buy it, or put it behind several other classes in the meta and sell less of it. Im sure making arty good, while changing repeaters to fire a lot faster in that era sold a lot of those. There were even people demanding nerfs of it back then.

The previous times wizard and sorc got their passes show us that yes, there will be people demanding nerfs of those. Heck its not even too far out. In this very thread there are two different people complaining about spell crit chance being too high. Casters get access to the same uber damage epic feats/ED feats that warlocks do. Wizards already have more instakill rotations, and sorcs have the higher mana pool for the AOE fest. Its really just 2 free blasts every 5 seconds and a HP cushion that separate them, and skilled players already overcame anything that could be labeled a deficiency before warlock was even released.

If the latter does happen, and people unpark their wizards and sorcs, it would show pretty much what we already know. People get mad when that thing they dropped all the money on in the past is no longer top of the meta. Their choice is then to drop money on this new thing which they claim is top of the meta, or be satisfied with something which hasn't changed, but is no longer top of the meta due to something new which is. There is a third choice. Don't drop money on it and actually consume the time to refine PLs, but that begs the question: Will it still be top of the meta after that time passes, or will there be another new thing which takes its place.

They should just un-nerf those other things now, so those other things wont "have their fun ruined" by warlocks. That is the claim most often posted, so if the devs do anything to act on that feedback in the "spirit of game balance" it would be to un-nerf those other things. It is already very clear those providing said feedback couldn't care less about content balance. Myself and others have brought content balance up in each of these nerf threads for years now, and it mostly gets glossed over or shouted down by folks who still think nerfing is better, after having played through years of evidence which shows nerfing hasn't solved the "balance issue" and a strong case has been made by that same in game evidence that nerfing has actually made the issue worse. Thus closing the power gap is the right thing to do. Since the loudest players have reached a consensus that warlock is top of the meta, un-nerfing everything else would be prudent so those things can be closer to the top, and then they can stop having their fun ruined.

[Chai]

I find the idea that casual players need to be able to play elite content shortsighted. This might be true in heroics, but certainly not in epics. When I started playing epics more seriously we were already in the EN/EH/EE era. EE was serious business for the rookies, and no one was ashamed of doing EH. If anything, I think that EH should have been a tad harder, leaving EN for the rookies, EH for those a bit more experienced, and EE for good parties. This was true for even mid level epics on capped toons.

Handing out builds that obliterated EE has not done anything good for the game. Now players have a much reduced space to grow in skill, game knowledge, and character progression. A capped toon can destroy most epic content in EE without needing top of the line gear or skill.



This wasn't exactly like that. For a while the devs handed truckloads of power to every class they touched. Its not that they released rookie friendly builds per se, rather that they overpowered anything they touched. Bard, paladin, barbarian, mechanic, ranger, warlock. Those were leaps in power. It just bumped upwards the power for everyone, not just for rookies. And thus, in the process they trivialized some content and limited the growth space for players.




I don't see it as a battle of veterans vs the rest, as you seem to do. I see it as some classes being just more efficient at playing the game than others. My current ranger is much more powerful than a simple CON based warlock at its peak, but it is not as efficient in farming content. With ToEE starting the trend, and then slavers, a lot of powerful gear is in quests. This means that having a fast speed + AOE damage toon is invaluable.

It will be far easier for someone with a warlock to acquire the slavers items, and any quest gear, and keep up with the power frontier. Given the rate at which things become obsolete in the game this is increasingly important. So easy button is not just easy to play, but also less risky and more powerful in a lot of content. Let it be slavers farming or the XP hamster wheel. That's why we have a super population of warlocks.

I think that this highlights two problems. First that it is difficult to manage the power of magic. A good blaster warlock might not be the most optimal raiding build, but it certainly outpaces tremendously any melee toon in a quest. So where is the tipping point, and how to put both builds together in a raiding and a questing party and have they play nicely together. This is important in moving forward with the upcoming caster updates.

Second, we need to wonder why "efficient warlocks" are so freaking prevalent. And for this we need to go back to the reward systems in the game. A lot of it consists in farming easy content: PLs, ePLs, slavers (toee before). This is the game that a lot of people play and nothing beats warlock at that. The more grindy the game is, and the more that it is in quest-like design (as opposed to raids), the more that people gravitate towards the so called easy buttons.

Finally, there is also the issue of balance between "legit builds" and "exploiters". The new uber shiradi spammers, tree builds, and to a lesser extent shuriken and wolfexploit builds, are miles ahead of any traditional build. To the point that if you want to play the game competitively, there seems to be no reason not to gravitate towards them. I see this as a problem. Not only it seems impossible to balance the game properly between those power builds and the rest, but also because those builds break completely the concept of cooperation. Cooperation requires weaknesses and those builds overpower brutally content.

Addressing the bolded:

Your position is a game play position 100% and marketing position 0%. There are two different marketing position variables which tell us that asking for nerfs all the time is futile. You have hinted at one of those in that bolded section.

1. Turbine makes money on selling character power. This one is self explanatory.

2. New players money is just as green as vets money, and new players haven't saturated their playable characters with purchased character power yet.

Claiming its not a vets versus new players thing from a player position might be correct, but from the marketing standpoint is incorrect If the vets already saturated their playable characters with the highest purchasable tomes and paid to circumvent PLs, and the new players have not, its very clear to see what the plan is for making money in the near future.

[nokowi]

I find the idea that casual players need to be able to play elite content shortsighted. This might be true in heroics, but certainly not in epics. When I started playing epics more seriously we were already in the EN/EH/EE era. EE was serious business for the rookies, and no one was ashamed of doing EH. If anything, I think that EH should have been a tad harder, leaving EN for the rookies, EH for those a bit more experienced, and EE for good parties. This was true for even mid level epics on capped toons.

Handing out builds that obliterated EE has not done anything good for the game. Now players have a much reduced space to grow in skill, game knowledge, and character progression. A capped toon can destroy most epic content in EE without needing top of the line gear or skill.



This wasn't exactly like that. For a while the devs handed truckloads of power to every class they touched. Its not that they released rookie friendly builds per se, rather that they overpowered anything they touched. Bard, paladin, barbarian, mechanic, ranger, warlock. Those were leaps in power. It just bumped upwards the power for everyone, not just for rookies. And thus, in the process they trivialized some content and limited the growth space for players.




I don't see it as a battle of veterans vs the rest, as you seem to do. I see it as some classes being just more efficient at playing the game than others. My current ranger is much more powerful than a simple CON based warlock at its peak, but it is not as efficient in farming content. With ToEE starting the trend, and then slavers, a lot of powerful gear is in quests. This means that having a fast speed + AOE damage toon is invaluable.

It will be far easier for someone with a warlock to acquire the slavers items, and any quest gear, and keep up with the power frontier. Given the rate at which things become obsolete in the game this is increasingly important. So easy button is not just easy to play, but also less risky and more powerful in a lot of content. Let it be slavers farming or the XP hamster wheel. That's why we have a super population of warlocks.

I think that this highlights two problems. First that it is difficult to manage the power of magic. A good blaster warlock might not be the most optimal raiding build, but it certainly outpaces tremendously any melee toon in a quest. So where is the tipping point, and how to put both builds together in a raiding and a questing party and have they play nicely together. This is important in moving forward with the upcoming caster updates.

Second, we need to wonder why "efficient warlocks" are so freaking prevalent. And for this we need to go back to the reward systems in the game. A lot of it consists in farming easy content: PLs, ePLs, slavers (toee before). This is the game that a lot of people play and nothing beats warlock at that. The more grindy the game is, and the more that it is in quest-like design (as opposed to raids), the more that people gravitate towards the so called easy buttons.

Finally, there is also the issue of balance between "legit builds" and "exploiters". The new uber shiradi spammers, tree builds, and to a lesser extent shuriken and wolfexploit builds, are miles ahead of any traditional build. To the point that if you want to play the game competitively, there seems to be no reason not to gravitate towards them. I see this as a problem. Not only it seems impossible to balance the game properly between those power builds and the rest, but also because those builds break completely the concept of cooperation. Cooperation requires weaknesses and those builds overpower brutally content.

I think you raise some good points here.

The only thing I find odd is you mentioning players playing a PvE game competitively.

[NaturalHazard]

Sometimes it feels like theres only 10-12 people on the DDO forums even if there are 20-30 accounts apparently commenting on a thread.

[Nestroy]

When artificer came out it was very powerful in that meta. That meta is long gone, however the devs did have the same marketing conundrum then too. Make arty good and people will buy it, or put it behind several other classes in the meta and sell less of it. Im sure making arty good, while changing repeaters to fire a lot faster in that era sold a lot of those. There were even people demanding nerfs of it back then.

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While the rest of your quote is worthwile to mention, I will get back to Arty. Many a player, me included, felt Arty class to be a heavy rip-off. Why? Because the class was heavily nerfed (or bug-fixed, as some would say) at the same time the game was expanded into the MotU expansion and epic levels. U12 introduced Artificers and up until U14 the class was overhauled quite a lot. Sure, between U12 and U14 Arties were top of the meta. But we soon had to find out that Arties were sold and forgotten after U14, especially in epics. It only got worse from there on. Meanwhile, the Mechanic is much better than the Artificer counterpart, not to mention so many of the other builds and classes. Arty is good in heroics (still quite powerful from lv. 1 on) but ebbs out into epics and is all-but-usable in endgame content, even using the best of equipment available.

Arty was the one class everyone and their dog wanted to be nerfed post U12.

What I do fear now: We want to see WL nerfs up until the day the devs finally break the class. Then the new shinies will arive and WL will not be up to the task any more in any newer content. And since the class already sold well, there is no incentive to balance the class against newer content. And WL will share the fate of Artificer. And that is something that really must not happen!