Warlock NERF Again

[CaptainPurge]

Anyone who played warlocks knows how broken they are, if you claim you played and feel opposite prob you need meds to fix that head of yours.

You rolled up a level 1 build to "prove garbage point". My work is done here and have fun with that.

[CaptainPurge]

I know people are concerned about the dps loss warlocks are facing and I am not sure any dps loss was needed for epic levels, but the other benefits a warlock has are tremendous.

Achieving DCs is not hard to do in this game at the moment. You can go into ES focusing on enchant, necro, illusion, whatever and still hit your DCs while having the best self-healing in the game - temp hp shining through, brilliance, feigned health. The 2 SLAs are weaker, but still really solid free dps at heroic levels on top of great self healing, perma shield and some outstanding instakill, cc and charm spells.

shhh don't tell that to the resident sped

[Arctigis]

I know people are concerned about the dps loss warlocks are facing and I am not sure any dps loss was needed for epic levels, but the other benefits a warlock has are tremendous.

Achieving DCs is not hard to do in this game at the moment. You can go into ES focusing on enchant, necro, illusion, whatever and still hit your DCs while having the best self-healing in the game - temp hp shining through, brilliance, feigned health. The 2 SLAs are weaker, but still really solid free dps at heroic levels on top of great self healing, perma shield and some outstanding instakill, cc and charm spells.

I mostly agree (I agree entirely about epic levels) but it really does depend on context. What is 'best' is
also somewhat subjective. Can you get better DCs than a Wizard? Can you do better burst DPS than
a ranged build or a sorc?. Lots of situations.

90% of the game is spent wading through trash where AOE DPS and damage mitigation/CC are
king. Warlocks excels at these. I'd take almost any other class in a boss fight though ;-)

[Kylstrem]

^ That is my point. Unlike the other builds warlocks are nowhere near as gear dependent as the other builds you listed simple because of the nature of how warlock is played. The powers of a warlock provide(d) sustain/damage output to multiple enemies simultaneously making the speed by which people could solo the heroic content for RPL's. The classes inherent abilities put it on par if not above the builds you mentioned without a fraction of the amount of worl and gear grinding necessary to meet the needs of zerfing heroics. As a single class it is the most effective.

The devs have little control over splashes and the different means by which a player can get power, but gear was one of them. Warlocks, becausr of how they work can ignore twink gear throughout heroics very often.

Speed and gear. Repeaters, Monks, and Mechanics all require gear that can utilize their ranged type of dps (assumning you are referring to a thrower monk) Moreover, the classes have weaknesses warlocks don't. Mechs are probably the weakest on that list for zerging content alone since much of their dps is tied to sneak attacks. Repeaters still can't self heal after an unlucky hit and keep going like the common warlock can, nor can they hit multiple targets for the same amount of dps with specific feats that take time to get through the life. I can't speak too much about monk since I have never looked into them, but ive seen enough monk throwers ro know that they can't kill a room of enemies as fast as a warlock can with their inherent skills.

Its simple. Warlocks broke the RTR Hamster wheel and fly through heroic content so fast. Some warlocks go fron lvl 1 to 20 doibg reaper only in less than 3 days.

The quote right above me is your first post about that I responded to. You seem to be changing your stance.

You said "Warlock Broke the RTR Hamster wheel" because "warlocks can go from 1 to 20 in less than 3 days".

And I responded that people have been doing 1 to 20 in less than 3 days long before warlock and long before Racial RTR.

Warlock didn't break this. It was already broken. Warlock just opened up the ability for the "masses" to have a chance to do what the "skilled" players were doing already.

I'll concede Warlock (as compared to all previous classes and builds) is broken in that it allows very EASY high DPS andvery and EASY survivability without needing great gear or great skill. Heck, that's evident by all the wailing and gnashing of teeth about the "nerf" by those who have been playing Auralock/Burst/Blast builds. They actually think Warlock is going to be a worthless class after the nerf because all they play is the EASIEST of EASIEST buttons.

But going 1-20 in less than 3 days has long been possible.

[mr420247]

When half the peeps are doing bb r1s for racials

Does it even matter think it will slow them down

Not at all just slows the grind down so a 5 year grind turns into a 7 year grind

Or tr to arti you fixed them alright

[Chai]

People are still proclaiming warlocks were high DPS.

One thing that was better when the game was more multiclass oriented, was much of this misinformation didnt exist, because with the advanced builds being so meticulously planned, it was hard for anyone else to understand why a build was so good at a glance. They actually had to do their homework to find out why. Nowdays people just see a warlock icon and think its max DPS because this inaccuracy has been drilled into them with constant repetition over 18 months of time.

[Arctigis]

People are still proclaiming warlocks were high DPS.

They are high DPS in heroic - not the highest mind and no burst DPS to speak of. They
rapidly decline in Epic levels - which is what I don't understand about the nerfs that are
incoming.

One thing that was better when the game was more multiclass oriented, was much of this misinformation didnt exist, because with the advanced builds being so meticulously planned, it was hard for anyone else to understand why a build was so good at a glance. They actually had to do their homework to find out why. Nowdays people just see a warlock icon and think its max DPS because this inaccuracy has been drilled into them with constant repetition over 18 months of time.

+1

[Kylstrem]

People are still proclaiming warlocks were high DPS.

.

high DPS when I can drag the entire R1 dungeon of mobs behind me, and then turn around hit cone and HIT 30 mobs at once and they don't even get a save chance for less damage.

It's not high in a one-on-one boss fight. it sucks actually. But I can keep stanching and shining through with displacement on while standing next to them until they die.

[Kylstrem]

Omg warlocks are not top dps.

They can deal damage without saves, sr check, sp cost, with aoe damage, absurd temp hp and have high defenses.

Now ppl want to buff their damage lol. Forums....

To kill bosses you just need to go afk a few secs.

Crymorepls.

I don't think anyone was saying they need more damage. Chai had to say something so he'd sound in-the-know and smart to the people who would venture that Warlocks have high DPS. Some people love to get their "Iamverysmart" kicks on these forums.

[Asylumist]

You said "Warlock Broke the RTR Hamster wheel" because "warlocks can go from 1 to 20 in less than 3 days".

And I responded that people have been doing 1 to 20 in less than 3 days long before warlock and long before Racial RTR.

Warlock didn't break this. It was already broken. Warlock just opened up the ability for the "masses" to have a chance to do what the "skilled" players were doing already.

I'll concede Warlock (as compared to all previous classes and builds) is broken in that it allows very EASY high DPS andvery and EASY survivability without needing great gear or great skill. Heck, that's evident by all the wailing and gnashing of teeth about the "nerf" by those who have been playing Auralock/Burst/Blast builds. They actually think Warlock is going to be a worthless class after the nerf because all they play is the EASIEST of EASIEST buttons.

But going 1-20 in less than 3 days has long been possible.

Warlocks did break it by being the class that could do it with the least effort. A first life warlock could complete 1-20 with minimal twink gear. You can't do that om any of the othwr toons you mentioned because of the inherent weaknesses they have compared to warlocks strength. Solid dps and survivability against multiple targets with no spell cost... meanwhile a repeater build can only shoot one target. A repeater can't mow down 12 mobs as quickly as the warlock. Put the facts together. The hamster wheel exists to keep people playing at all skill levels to and the majority of builds can get through the content at an adequate pace with optimal builds based on GEAR, past lives, tomes, and action points to achieve speedier results. Warlocks ignored the fundamentals of the hamster wheel because of their inherent ability to outperform those optimal builds that were dependant on gear past lives and action points ranging from 32 to 36 and tomes.

By dedinition the hamster wheel is broken in this scenario because a greater abundance of players can complete it than any other hamster wheel before it.

[Arctigis]

Warlocks did break it by being the class that could do it with the least effort. A first life warlock could complete 1-20 with minimal twink gear. You can't do that om any of the othwr toons you mentioned because of the inherent weaknesses they have compared to warlocks strength. Solid dps and survivability against multiple targets with no spell cost... meanwhile a repeater build can only shoot one target. A repeater can't mow down 12 mobs as quickly as the warlock. Put the facts together. The hamster wheel exists to keep people playing at all skill levels to and the majority of builds can get through the content at an adequate pace with optimal builds based on GEAR, past lives, tomes, and action points to achieve speedier results. Warlocks ignored the fundamentals of the hamster wheel because of their inherent ability to outperform those optimal builds that were dependant on gear past lives and action points ranging from 32 to 36 and tomes.

By dedinition the hamster wheel is broken in this scenario because a greater abundance of players can complete it than any other hamster wheel before it.

For me this is what is inherently wrong with all of these discussion. The expectation that all build/classes should
be able to do the same thing. What rubbish. It completely ignores inherent class abilities and assumes that
the universal goal of every player is to get through content as quickly as possible with as little resistance as possible.

The repeater build initially doesn't have the AOE of a Warlock - it gets better AOE (in the hands of a skilled player)
with IPS but not until later levels. ES Warlocks don't get Spirit Blast until L12, Tentacles until L10
etc.

Consider all the abilities of a class when comparing to Warlock - not just how fast one can kill trash.

[AzureDragonas]

For me this is what is inherently wrong with all of these discussion. The expectation that all build/classes should
be able to do the same thing. What rubbish. It completely ignores inherent class abilities and assumes that
the universal goal of every player is to get through content as quickly as possible with as little resistance as possible.

The repeater build initially doesn't have the AOE of a Warlock - it gets better AOE (in the hands of a skilled player)
with IPS but not until later levels. ES Warlocks don't get Spirit Blast until L12, Tentacles until L10
etc.

Consider all the abilities of a class when comparing to Warlock - not just how fast one can kill trash.

Nice comparison you made here, we can break things here also just to show how unequally warlocks are to let's say repeater build.

# As i told before warlock gets at lvl 2 Chain thus attacking up to 3 targets from lvl 2 without need to align mobs in line to attack or need of sp. In comparison if you made mechanic with artificer levels for obvious reasons you would get IMP. shot at 18 only and even then will have to still work on mobs aligning

# Warlocks gets both web and tentacles which are prob best in game cc and works on more mobs.

# Warlock gets Loads of temp hp restricting needs of heals, while other have to switch like heal scrolls/wands

# Warlock gets instakill while rogs best options are vorpal/mortal slayer which again is limited to mob types.

# Even if you compare single DPS options are you sincere that warlcok lacks DPS to single target? Stricken/consume does damage better than most casters can get at same levels, and they can pick ruin/greater ruin also doing huge flat Damage to bosses.

Point is you pick in comparison mechanic so prove that without trap disarming/evasion rogs have upper hand in any way compared to warlocks, because we all know you can multiclass and get those 2 rog levels also. My point is warlocks are abomination in any sense because they are better in everything than other classes, they have no actual drawback to begin with.

[Wizza]

Guys..Warlocks are fine.

Signed - Warlock Users

[AzureDragonas]

Some comments of people claiming warlocks are fine or even "weaker" even after dozen arguments and comparisons provided shows foolishness and maybe misunderstanding on purpose of issue lots of us see and that reminded me of this quote i saw long time ago...

“There are two ways to be fooled. One is to believe what isn't true; the other is to refuse to believe what is true.”
- Søren Kierkegaard

[Rys]

Some comments of people claiming warlocks are fine or even "weaker" even after dozen arguments and comparisons provided shows foolishness and maybe misunderstanding on purpose of issue lots of us see and that reminded me of this quote i saw long time ago...

“There are two ways to be fooled. One is to believe what isn't true; the other is to refuse to believe what is true.”
- Søren Kierkegaard

Nobody knows what is true.

[Cantor]

Guys..Warlocks are fine.

Signed - Warlock Users

Signed, this statement.

[Arctigis]

Consume on a level 12 warlock hits for 8d10, stacking 3x, for 24d10 or 132 damage at tick, is free to use and metamagic, and boosts movement speed 12% at level 12. With the 20% vulnerability built into SE as you get Consume, it ends up hitting bosses for 158.5 base per tic.

Arcane pulse as an epic destiny minimum level 29 ability, cast 5x, with the 5th max maximized/empowered, on a level 30 caster costs ~70 mana, plus 40 mana every 14 seconds to refresh, deals 3d6+6 per stack, for 82.5 damage per tick.

The ultimate boss spell in the game for non-warlock casters requires a level 29 feat to get, and costs a bunch of mana to use, is interrupt-able, only does 52% of the damage, and doesn't boost movement speed, compared to the free dot of a level 12 warlock, that one gets as part of the best AoE build.

Warlocks do twice the boss dot damage, with less than half the character levels, for free, of other casters. They are stupid broken, to the point that it would take massive nerfs all over to get them to the merely massively overpowered stage.

You would have to apply a 50% penalty to every single ability they use in heroics for warlocks to merely be twice as good as other classes.

I'm not disagreeing with your numbers - I've said elsewhere that Stricken/Consume should probably
have an SP cost and a save for half. However, you're doing what I said you're doing. Taking one
thing that you believe is broken/OP and using that to win the argument.

How many traps can you disarm with Consume?
How many spells/traps/attacks did you evade with Consume?
Does Consume do more DPS than Manyshot or 10k stars?
Does Consume more DPS than a haste boosted Kensai
Does Consume do more DPS than a Sorc using a proper DPS cycle (Sorc with sad enhancment trees from 2013?)

I'm not saying you're wrong just that the problem is a bit more complicated

Balance is a Unicorn as it means different things to different people and is very much based
on the obstacles that the content provides. At the moment, the meta is RTR on R1-R3
which suits Warlock abilities perfectly; they are (IMO) the best choice for this. Like every FotM
in DDO history, they won't always be.

[AzureDragonas]

I'm not disagreeing with your numbers - I've said elsewhere that Stricken/Consume should probably
have an SP cost and a save for half. However, you're doing what I said you're doing. Taking one
thing that you believe is broken/OP and using that to win the argument.

How many traps can you disarm with Consume?
How many spells/traps/attacks did you evade with Consume?
Does Consume do more DPS than Manyshot or 10k stars?
Does Consume more DPS than a haste boosted Kensai
Does Consume do more DPS than a Sorc using a proper DPS cycle (Sorc with sad enhancment trees from 2013?)

I'm not saying you're wrong just that the problem is a bit more complicated

Balance is a Unicorn as it means different things to different people and is very much based
on the obstacles that the content provides. At the moment, the meta is RTR on R1-R3
which suits Warlock abilities perfectly; they are (IMO) the best choice for this. Like every FotM
in DDO history, they won't always be.

I wanna ask the same:

How many bosses you can kill with trap disarming?
How many mobs/bosses you killed with evasion?
Does consume have 30-60 seconds cooldown?
Does consume run out of action boosts?
Do you even need proper DPS cycle to use consume?

When you have no actual arguments you provide any pointless scrap you can come up right?

[slarden]

People are still proclaiming warlocks were high DPS.

One thing that was better when the game was more multiclass oriented, was much of this misinformation didnt exist, because with the advanced builds being so meticulously planned, it was hard for anyone else to understand why a build was so good at a glance. They actually had to do their homework to find out why. Nowdays people just see a warlock icon and think its max DPS because this inaccuracy has been drilled into them with constant repetition over 18 months of time.

The issue would have been better addressed by having monsters save for eld blast damage.

[Littleclotty]

Id just like to point out. most people have 50 past lives, completionist 36 point builds with tomes and hand-me-down raid gear.

for new players, its nice to have a class option that isnt so hard to play. I dont want to play with others since anyone low level is usually on some kind of reincarnation, blitzes through the entire quest while i have no idea what were supposed to be doing or any of the story of the dungeon. thats the whole point of DDO. its a DnD game, true most people the magic has probably long since worn off, but dont ruin it for the rest of us.

so i play alone, and I dont have millions of bonuses or OP gear, and I dont know much about complicated build mechanics. so I can play a lock, and manage to do hard and some elite quests solo without crazy gear.


I know class balance affects everyone at all stages, but please give some thought to people who arent in the same situation as you. one of the major limitations to new players in DDO is the complexity needed to just not paint yourself into a corner and get facerolled at a certain level cause you built wrong or used a starter build.
in additon to the prohibitive nature of entry level DDO. most things are either locked behind a paywall, or locked behind huge time investments.

you dont want to get burned out "playing to unlock the ability to play the game" before you get a chance to really enjoy it

thats my 2 cents.

I am a new player and I approve this post. My account is several years old, but I am still on my first life as a wizard. This is because I keep getting frustrated with how hard it is to get through the content solo. I have quit the game several times and then come back at a later date. I have even spend money at different times to buy new content, looking for something thats easier to do.

There are probably those that would say I should find players to group with, but this is essentially a solo game for new players. Especially for those of use that are not vip and do not have access to all the quests, it's very difficult to find players in lfg that are doing a quest that is available to us and is on a level that we can get xp from. Many of those here probably began playing back in a time when there were bigger population servers and more choices for grouping. Now the main playerbase is all leveled and op and they dont relate well to us newer players who are just starting out with nothing.

Being a new player that is on my first life as a wizard, I can't say whether warlocks were or still are op. However, I can say that something should be done for new players so we can get through our first one or two lives easier. Now that I have learned how easy the warlock is for leveling I will probably choose it for my second life, if I make it that far.

As things stand now, I purchased $50 in tp during the bonus sale and am now waiting for otto boxes to become available again so I can boost to level 20. At that point I should be able to clear some of the lower level content thats giving me problems now. Until then I don't actually play. I just log in every few days to check the auction house for the level 20 gear I will need.

Perhaps the folks running the game made it initially hard on purpose, so that new players would have to tp through their first life. If that's the case, I think they lose more than they gain. I'm sure many new players get frustrated and quit without spending anything.