Upcoming Experience Changes

[FranOhmsford]

Here's the thing I think I alluded to in my first post You may see:
No one uses this feature very much, and conclude: no one is really interested in removing BB

Where it could actually be:
No one uses this feature very much, and conclude: because it's a pain in the a** to use the feature and it's hidden away where new players can't even get to it.

In any event the real harm in BB is the mindset of "we must do Elite at all times and never anything less"

This mindset causes people to never join Hard or Normal LFM's in heroic which means new players who start an LFM on anything less than Elite will get no joiners, now with this change the odd veteran who feels charitable might occasionally join the new players LFM. Well I mean he's already taking an XP hit and if he runs off to the Hall and jumps through a hoop he wont break streak, so theoretically he might once in a blue moon do that.

However that Mindset and the Elite XP bonus also causes LFM starters to always make Elite LFM's never any Hard or Normal, it causes them to make the level range Quest level +2 never less and never more. This change does nothing to mitigate or mollify that, it doesn't make it more flexible AND it requires jumping through a hoop besides.

Example: now a Vet can start a level 10 quest LFM with a 9 to 13 range... but he wont because anyone joining will have to run off and suppress their BB.
Example: now a new player can start a Normal LFM and have more than a 0.0% chance of someone joining, but because this would require a veteran to go surpress his streak (jump through a hoop) it's still almost hopeless.

These are all very good points

So it will be very seldom used and it wont solve the problem. I see this Most often used by established friends who want to run with each other but are enough levels apart that they would break one of their streaks... I can see it used occasionally when someone wants to run a level 10 quest (to finish it's arc or get flagged say) when he's accidentally leveled to 13 without realizing he still hadn't run it.

That's some really niche uses for something that will take developer time to implement. Don't get me wrong those are legit uses and positives... but it's not enough IMO.

Uh what?

If you run a Lvl 10 quest at 13 it won't break your streak anyway!

If your friends are too high for BB then again neither your nor your friends streaks will be broken!

I will give a couple of examples though where I see this being used:

1) Iconics and Stoned Characters going into Epics who don't want to have to go back and farm out the Heroic versions on Elite first so they don't break their streaks when running EN.

2) Many Epic Players who want to run mainly ENs but keep their streak intact for the inevitable TR.

3) End-Game content {Raids} that's mainly run on EN - You can't run it on EN or EH because it would break your streak, You can't run it on EE because you're not capable of leading and there's never any groups up!
I read in in-game chat today that one player would be happy with this change because he's never run MoD because it would break his streak and now he can!

[Postumus]

These are all very good points



Uh what?

If you run a Lvl 10 quest at 13 it won't break your streak anyway!

If your friends are too high for BB then again neither your nor your friends streaks will be broken!

He either misspoke or doesn't understand the BB mechanic. His examples you quoted don't make sense to me either.

[Ailia]

1) Iconics and Stoned Characters going into Epics who don't want to have to go back and farm out the Heroic versions on Elite first so they don't break their streaks when running EN.

2) Many Epic Players who want to run mainly ENs but keep their streak intact for the inevitable TR.

3) End-Game content {Raids} that's mainly run on EN - You can't run it on EN or EH because it would break your streak, You can't run it on EE because you're not capable of leading and there's never any groups up!

I won't deny that 3, especially, comes up a lot. An annoyance for some and a big deal for others. None of these would be an issue with streaks removed in favor of more first time xp though.

[FranOhmsford]

I won't deny that 3, especially, comes up a lot. An annoyance for some and a big deal for others. None of these would be an issue with streaks removed in favor of more first time xp though.

Actually I think they would!

If people won't break streak to run MoD on EN.
And people will go back and run the Dailies on Heroic Elite so they don't break their streaks when running the daily ENs.
What makes you think they'll accept getting less xp for first time on Normal than first time on Elite?

They'll still insist that first run must be on Elite!

[justagame]

This is a consistent position for many people who dislike bravery, but it's missing a large part of what bravery is about.

Bravery doesn't just encourage people to run elite, it encourages people to run many different quests. The aspect where it gets people to run unpopular quests is generally ignored by the detractors, and I note that your example focuses on WizKing, a hugely popular quest. Bravery isn't about WizKing. Bravery is about sorrowdusk, threnal, restless isles, and all the content that would go dark without the streak bonus.

The streak mechanic isn't inherently good, though. I'd much prefer scrapping bravery and switching to a "first run" bonus where the first time you run a quest, the difficulty-based first time bonus gets doubled. (Drop elite first time from 80% to 75% to match the 150% bravery we currently get on live.) This preserves the incentive to run a variety of content while removing the limited level range and worries about breaking streaks.

Oh, I completely agree that it provides incentives to run lots of different quests, as opposed to farming one over and over, but my point about the narrow level window still holds. My point for choosing Wiz King was not that no one runs it -- it was that for any high XP quest, the bonus was such a big deal that you WANT run wait to run it at a specific level -- thus narrowing the level range of people what would consider grouping. (There are better quest examples, but I'm sure you get my point).

At any rate, I totally agree with preferring to scrap streaks in favor of a first-run bonus. But that still doesn't solve the level window problem as it pertains to grouping. Without the huge 1st-time bonus, there is a wider range of levels at which people might be willing to run a given quest. How many level 8s, even capable level 8s, would join a pug for a level 9 quest on elite? Not many if they want to preserve that first time bonus for when it matters most. Or a level 12 player, knowing that the penalty (excluding bonus) is small. Nope, you'd cost the group a HUGE bonus, more than just the 10% penalty. So instead of having level 8-11, or 9-12 characters being the pool of players that might consider that quest, now it's more like level 10-11, period. That significantly narrows the pool of players who would even consider joining your group.

[Ailia]

Actually I think they would!

If people won't break streak to run MoD on EN.
And people will go back and run the Dailies on Heroic Elite so they don't break their streaks when running the daily ENs.
What makes you think they'll accept getting less xp for first time on Normal than first time on Elite?

They'll still insist that first run must be on Elite!

Your forgetting that there are multiple classes of first time bonuses. First time completion and first time per difficulty.

Add what would be the BB/streak bonuses to first time completion, doing elite first and then a hard later vs doing hard now and an elite later would then have the same net benefit.

[XodousRoC]

Any chance to also HARD CAP the Streak count to 5? I think most people are unwilling to break their streak because the number raises too much while doing a heroic life, and psychology make us forget it is actually capped at 5. Seeing it actually frozen at the number 5 will make many people perceive how easy is to rebuild your streak again.

Both the parties that inflate and those who minimize the effects of breaking bb are wrong. It is wrong to assume the we are only building up to max bonus again 5 quests later because if you break it once, people will expect you to have no problem doing so again...and again....and again... The problem I would have with breaking my 1k+ leet streak has nothing to do with the 5 quests it would take to build it to max bonus, but rather it's the unrealistic expectation that I would be willing to do so at any time, leading me to solo even more than I currently do (to avoid people constantly asking me to break it).
-A increment system that scales down in the same manner it scales up (as mentioned by others in the thread) would eliminate this concern for me.-

[FranOhmsford]

I don't think we want to encourage players to run under level to farm Remnants. They are designed as a small additional perk of running harder content.


Sev~

Underlevel?

He/she was asking if you'd allow them to run Overlevel and still earn remnants.


Why can I not get remnants from EE VoN 3 or Wiz King when on my Lvl 28 1st Life character but I can when on my {not my personally - just an example} Lvl 20 Completionist?

As an aside - Can you please change the Renown penalties to be more in-line with XP penalties?
It hurts new players and casuals very much to not be able to get renown unless they run at BB level!
{Changing remnants to have the same penalties to drop rates as XP currently does would also be nice}.

[Thar]

Isn't the fact that remnants will not drop if you have a higher level character make the kill a disincentive to grouping with other higher lvl epic players?

And the champion boost kills a lvl 28 as easily as a 22. 400-600 pt hits don't care about level. Nothing about champions is easier on epics if your 22 or 28.

I know my own guild has said... nope can't join if over lvl 25, etc for some quests. this isn't even farming, it's normal saga quests.

[btolson]

Is there going to be some lengthy timer associated with suppressing and reactivating a streak? If not, I'm uncertain how this differs substantially from simply removing Bravery altogether and upping first time completions on hard/elite by X/Y% to compensate, which would be easier to implement and one less intricacy to teach new players about.

Any dev response to this?

[FranOhmsford]

Isn't the fact that remnants will not drop if you have a higher level character make the kill a disincentive to grouping with other higher lvl epic players?

Yep!

And the champion boost kills a lvl 28 as easily as a 22. 400-600 pt hits don't care about level. Nothing about champions is easier on epics if your 22 or 28.

Actually if that Lvl 28 hasn't done any E-TRs or is in an off destiny while the Lvl 22 has done multiple E-TRs and is in main destiny the Lvl 28 will get creamed while the 22 will blast right on through it!

And don't even start on the difference Heroic TRs make!

I know my own guild has said... nope can't join if over lvl 25, etc for some quests. this isn't even farming, it's normal saga quests.

Ouch - The whole reason to run Sagas is for the Renown - So a Guild refusing to have a Lvl 26-28 in the run is atrocious!

[Full_Bleed]

Underlevel?

He/she was asking if you'd allow them to run Overlevel and still earn remnants.

You really could not understand what he was saying?

He was talking about not trivializing remnants by allowing people to farm under level content (i.e. running dungeons that were under their level).

[FranOhmsford]

You really could not understand what he was saying?

He was talking about not trivializing remnants by allowing people to farm under level content (i.e. running dungeons that were under their level).

And how exactly is EE VoN 3 underlevel for a 1st Life no E-TR Lvl 26-28 player farming an off destiny?

In fact the opposite is true and the Multi-Lifer going through his E-TRs will have a far easier time running this at Lvl 20 than that 1st Lifer at 28!



With first time bonuses you can still get decent XP 4 or 5 levels above BB {Heck on some quests you can get more than 10k even 6 levels above BB!
You have the same chances at loot no matter how over-level you are for the quest you're running!
Yet for Renown and Remnants you have to be at BB level or lower? WHY?


P.S. The Devs should know that when we use the terms Over-Level and Under-Level on these forums {and in-game!} we're not talking about the Content but about the Player!
By swapping those terms around the Devs are going to run into questions like mine!

[General_Gronker]

its not an entirely rational reason. .

No, it's entirely rational. Go to leave a guild. Notice what it asks you? That guild loses renown. That's a demonstrable result that you have contributed. By just quitting and joining a new guild, you have, in fact, lost the investment you have made in your previous guild.

Rational. It means something.

[psykopeta]

~ There is now an NPC in the Hall of Heroes that will suppress your Bravery Streak and associated bonuses. While suppressed you can go off and do content on lower difficulties without ruining your streak. This allows you to group with friends, or join pick up groups, or even do new content on lower difficulty settings without ruining your bravery streak. Note that while suppressed bravery streaks are not ended, but you don't get associated bravery bonuses.

u know, i prolly won't use it, but i must say

you
are
a
genious

indeed, great idea, must say

it allows me, to, for example run citw in non ee my 1st time every life

sad thing i don't use to run raids

but it's a great idea

[Silverleafeon]

You aren't wrong. Goes to show that when the time is right to get something done, long-term feedback matters.

LOL, I was thinking yesterday, the 2014 PC discussed some of this also, could not remember whether it was a tangent of one of our threads or wild debating tangents on our of the official threads. Then I wondered if I was suppose to wait out the waiting period before posting....lol...too late...


Interestingly enough, the one point was thrashed over due to possible abuse was changed to an event status. The more I think about it, the more I like the event idea.

By the way, remember that build your guild event?
That was fun, could we repeat it again someday?

[Silverleafeon]

Underlevel?

He/she was asking if you'd allow them to run Overlevel and still earn remnants.

Quest is under Character Level = Character is over Quest Level

or

As the order of the stick comic pointed out, if TSR had used a thesaurus on the word "level" we would not have this problem?



Going down a level = less spell power or deeper dungeon or vampire's touch?

[Silverleafeon]

Bravery doesn't just encourage people to run elite, it encourages people to run many different quests.

+1 This


No more Shadow Crypt 10x normal, then Ex1, Hx1, Cx1 then moving on to the next high xp quest on the list.

Almost any quest is great xp the first time you do it.

[Silverleafeon]

Any dev response to this?

I am hoping I can toggle it off an on all I want while I am waiting for a raid/quest to fill just for the fun of it. EI zero timer please, and ty.

[FranOhmsford]

+1 This


No more Shadow Crypt 10x normal, then Ex1, Hx1, Cx1 then moving on to the next high xp quest on the list.

Almost any quest is great xp the first time you do it.

Actually I still get people asking if I'm going to Window Farm Shadow Crypt every single time I put an LFM up {which is pretty often as I have multiple characters going through TRs}.

Shadow Crypt E/H/N etc. was actually never that popular anyway as it required two or more people to be flagged or have alt accounts ready and waiting to open - The Window Farm requires you to run the same difficulty each time.


I still get people wanting to run Tempest Spine Hard straight after Elite!
I still get people asking if I'm going to do VoN 3 again even though I've put on the LFM VoN 3/4!

With High XP Quests there'll always be people wanting to run them multiple times!