Upcoming Experience Changes

[Enoach]

Thx for the prompt reply! Note, though, that there are carrots vs sticks. The penalty was a stick to help fellow players and this proposal will remove it. Was just curious if there would be a carrot to aiding them.

In past threads on this topic, this was hotly debated. I anticipate that this theme will come up again.

See here in lies the problem. The No Deaths was implemented as a Bonus, but treated by a large part of the DDO population as a Penalty. It was ours to earn which should have generated teamwork, but out of this came a population of "I don't want someone else losing my XP". I think part of the problem is that it is listed on the XP report from the start and disappears once someone die.

Great points. Note, though, another part of the argument. I think people tend to take the perspective of the person who loses xp when someone else croaks in the party. But let's not forget how awful it feels when You are that one-death in the xp report. I wonder how many people who are new, with flavor toons, off-destiny, undergeared etc avoid groups so as to not be a burden? This has happened in my case, for what it is worth--I've been in situations where I didn't want to burden others so I solo'd.

I've spent many a time consoling someone that was have a hard time because they had experienced someone that was mad at them because they died.


--------------------------
Now on another note and I'm not sure how this can be handled, but what about situations in quests where a player can kill other players. Quests like Undermine and Blown to Bits come to mind. as well as The Shipwrecked Spy. These quests have a mechanic which can be and has been abused. I imagine if these quests were around when a player lost XP the griefing that could have been done...

But I can also see people bringing others along to "take one for the team" to handle situations where dying is a possibility. Such as pulling a trapped lever when no one to disable (Wiz King has a few of these)

Personally I would have preferred to see this bonus go away all together and replaced with "Everyone Alive and at the 'End' of the Quest" on completion bonus. It would make it so that it is better if you make sure everyone can make it to the end instead of leaving people behind.

[Severlin]

There are technical reasons for the bravery suppression to be tied to an NPC.

I brought up concerns with the team about convenience, and we are planning to also add the NPC to guild airships.

Sev~

[Aerle]

Based on player feedback we are implementing some experience changes.

~ The Flawless bonus to experience now only counts your character's deaths instead of the entire party. This means if you invite someone less familiar with the content to your group and they die you won't lose your XP bonus unless you also die.

~ Henchman deaths no longer reduce the flawless XP penalty.

~ There is now an NPC in the Hall of Heroes that will suppress your Bravery Streak and associated bonuses. While suppressed you can go off and do content on lower difficulties without ruining your streak. This allows you to group with friends, or join pick up groups, or even do new content on lower difficulty settings without ruining your bravery streak. Note that while suppressed bravery streaks are not ended, but you don't get associated bravery bonuses.

We also have some special events coming up to reward grouping.

~ We are working on an additional DDO bonus days event that will award a percentage bonus on completion XP for each additional person in your dungeon group. This will not affect raids.

~ We are working on an additional DDO bonus days event that will award a percentage bonus on completion XP for each additional person in your raid group. This will not affect dungeons.

Sev~

Sounds like a great idea. I've always enjoyed questing with others but find it discouraging to open PUG's because I like my flawless victory xp

[Kylstrem]

There are technical reasons for the bravery suppression to be tied to an NPC.

I brought up concerns with the team about convenience, and we are planning to also add the NPC to guild airships.

Sev~

Needs to be the captain. We have 4 or 5 levels in our guild ship and having to search this guy out will be as painful as the Hall of Heroes.

[Qhualor]

Q, the problem, frankly, is that the 'bonus' became perceived as a 'penalty' and a metric to exclude players from groups and a way to lead to conflict when players died. At least now, maybe, some of the TR zergs will put up an lfm and let people ride on their tails whilst they level without worry about their max xp being devalued. After all, solo does not equal teamwork.

In fact, now, teamwork will be tested - will the TR, xp zerger be helpful to the rag tag bunch behind them? Will the rag tag help the zerg when he rolls 1 and goes *ping* dead quite humorously and unexpectedly?

players that like to zerg are doing it with an lfm or without regardless. this change just means to me that its ok to continue to play sloppily and makes the zerging more bearable from an xp stand point. its also been pointed out many times that losing the Flawless bonus is about the same as an optional in a quest. over the years we have seen an increase in xp gained from tomes, VIP, quest xp revamps, MM, etc. in game, if players disliked not getting Flawless Bonus, it was extremely rare for them to be vocal about it in the past few years. I saw more complaints about it on the forums than in game and I have a hard time believing it was a high per cent. Flawless bonus should represent encouraging teamwork and playing smarter.

no. the TR zerger will play the same as always.

[Severlin]

Needs to be the captain. We have 4 or 5 levels in our guild ship and having to search this guy out will be as painful as the Hall of Heroes.

Ideally he'd be standing top deck next to the buff device.

Sev~

[Hoglum]

The No Deaths was implemented as a Bonus, but treated by a large part of the DDO population as a Penalty.

Likewise, the "grouping bonus" will simply become a "soloing penalty".

[ValariusK]

Since we're discussing groups, can we also address a big issue on the other side of the grouping equation? Specifically guilds.

There are a lot of hollow guilds out there that would be much better for the game if they merged into a much smaller number of healthy guilds. But human factors and human nature generally prevent this from happening with any regularity. Part of it is the whole 'sunk cost' thing that human beings are really horrible at.

But if you created some kind of guild merger mechanism---say make it require unanimous consent for the guild to be swallowed for one week---and had it apply some small fraction of the guild renown of the swallowed guild to the swallowing one (I suggest 1/6, as that offsets and then some any guild size modifier on the earning of that renown and makes it so starting several 6 person guilds and then having a big merger is not any kind of exploit)---we might be able to induce a fair amount of merging activity on most servers, which would help grouping prospects for a lot of people.

They can already do this you might say....But...they generally won't.

[Hafeal]

Likewise, the "grouping bonus" will simply become a "soloing penalty".

*shrug*

It is an MMO and a social game. The intent and design is to group. Difficulty should be designed at a group level.

Soloing is still very possible and doable; soloing not getting the same xp as a group? Quite all right in my book.

[Postumus]

1. theres another nail towards less reasons for teamwork in a group.

Wow.

[jakeelala]

NM:

just saw that suppression requires an NPC.

[Postumus]

There are technical reasons for the bravery suppression to be tied to an NPC.

I brought up concerns with the team about convenience, and we are planning to also add the NPC to guild airships.

Sev~

Now THAT would be nice!

[Postumus]

But if you created some kind of guild merger mechanism---

This mechanism exists now:


1) Guild A and Guild B agree to merge

2) Guild A is bigger and has more amenities so Guild A agrees to absorb Guild B

3) Guild B members quit Guild B

4) Guild A recruits former Guild B members

5) Merger complete

[nomaddog]

I think these are great steps in the right direction. You are not going to be able to make everyone happy, but I see this as a positive thing. It seems to be a good balance. I especially like the fact that my dumb hireling won't knock off xp when they decide to stand in a trap.

I also like the BB toggle. I think back to the days when I first started playing and would run Redwillows, Gwylans, Tear, and Stormcleave as a four pack but on different difficulties. So, kudos for the changes and if for some reason this doesn't help with grouping, then I will be the first to eat Memnir's hat.

[Ape_Man]

Wonderful ideas.

[HatsuharuZ]

I like all of these changes. I'll probably be using this suppressive NPC a lot in epics.

Also, since you're making changes to how players get exp, I'd like to suggest two "bonuses" to add, in order to reduce player dependency on Bravery and First-Time bonuses, as well as to promote teamwork:

1) Samaritan Bonus: Gain % bonus to quest experience for the number of times group members have cast healing spells via scrolls, wands or spell points on other players. There would be a cap on this bonus, depending on the length of the quest.

2) Wordplay Bonus: Gain % bonus to quest experience for the number of time party members have *successfully* used the Intimidate, Bluff or Diplomacy feats on enemies.

[JonD]

There are technical reasons for the bravery suppression to be tied to an NPC.

I brought up concerns with the team about convenience, and we are planning to also add the NPC to guild airships.

Sev~

Needs to be the captain. We have 4 or 5 levels in our guild ship and having to search this guy out will be as painful as the Hall of Heroes.

The captain already handles Airship locations and Farshifter locations. I'd suggest the First Mate, who is also on the top deck and currently only deals with amenities.

[ValariusK]

This mechanism exists now:


1) Guild A and Guild B agree to merge

2) Guild A is bigger and has more amenities so Guild A agrees to absorb Guild B

3) Guild B members quit Guild B

4) Guild A recruits former Guild B members

5) Merger complete

Did you read my post? There's a reason why this almost never happens, and its not an entirely rational reason. People feel they are losing their investment in guild B. Make a formal merger mechanism with some small renown transfer and you'll overcome some of that inertia. Rational Economic man doesn't play DDO much.

[geoffhanna]

If there is a down side to this, I am not seeing it

[Silverleafeon]

Based on player feedback we are implementing some experience changes.

~ The Flawless bonus to experience now only counts your character's deaths instead of the entire party. This means if you invite someone less familiar with the content to your group and they die you won't lose your XP bonus unless you also die.

~ Henchman deaths no longer reduce the flawless XP penalty.

~ There is now an NPC in the Hall of Heroes that will suppress your Bravery Streak and associated bonuses. While suppressed you can go off and do content on lower difficulties without ruining your streak. This allows you to group with friends, or join pick up groups, or even do new content on lower difficulty settings without ruining your bravery streak. Note that while suppressed bravery streaks are not ended, but you don't get associated bravery bonuses.

We also have some special events coming up to reward grouping.

~ We are working on an additional DDO bonus days event that will award a percentage bonus on completion XP for each additional person in your dungeon group. This will not affect raids.

~ We are working on an additional DDO bonus days event that will award a percentage bonus on completion XP for each additional person in your raid group. This will not affect dungeons.

Sev~

/signed

100% support and applaud these changes

Thank you, this addresses the most serious grouping problems in a good way.

Keep up the good work!