Upcoming Experience Changes

[Vindraxx]

Let's assume I suppress my bravey bonus.
Then I enter a quest for the first time and complete it on normal
After that, I reactivate my bravery bonus and complete the same quest on elite.

Will this count for bravery bonus? Or will this break bravery streak? Or will it simply be ignored (streak paused and not applied, but not broken)?

I would assume that the answer to the above should be that it gives you the streak, but I suppose clarification to know for sure would be good.

I have a follow up question though to which I'm sure sadly the answer is probably going to be no. Let's say I deactivate my bravery streak and run VoN1 on Elite. Then I get to Epic VoN1, reactivate my streak and run on elite. Would this get me the bravery bonus for epic?

[Cordovan]

It is true that tying the group bonus to an event gives us the ability to monitor and moderate the bonus, but we think people will dig it. Part of this change allows us to have some nice "raid weekends"; it's a good bonus and system to have. Having it on an event also gives us a bit more wiggle room on the - amount - of the bonus.

If we were to see dramatic changes in grouping behavior, it's clearly something we'd look at. Our hope is that these changes have a beneficial impact, and address some long-standing concerns raised by near-everyone over the years. This will not be on the first deployment to Lamannia, but our hope is to get some of these changes out for public previewing soon-ish. Thanks for the great feedback so far!

[Loromir]

There is now zero insentive to do teamwork with non-guildies I will be much less likely to buff or heal any more and it will be the same across the board. All they are doing is giving more and more incentive to look for a replacement but I dont think there is a MMO but lucky there is roll20

Instead of constant cynicism...how about some suggestions.

[Vindraxx]

It is true that tying the group bonus to an event gives us the ability to monitor and moderate the bonus, but we think people will dig it. Part of this change allows us to have some nice "raid weekends"; it's a good bonus and system to have. Having it on an event also gives us a bit more wiggle room on the - amount - of the bonus.

I actually really like the idea of having it as a weekend bonus, will definitely encourage bringing people together at specific times and possibly would be something guilds and perhaps the forums would start to arrange activities in advance. As long as it's announced in the Chronicle, that would give people the better half of a week to start some planning for the weekend (which would add excitement at least for me).

[Loromir]

~ There is now an NPC in the Hall of Heroes that will suppress your Bravery Streak and associated bonuses. While suppressed you can go off and do content on lower difficulties without ruining your streak. This allows you to group with friends, or join pick up groups, or even do new content on lower difficulty settings without ruining your bravery streak. Note that while suppressed bravery streaks are not ended, but you don't get associated bravery bonuses.


Sev~

When you suppress your BB...does that suppress for the whole party or just you?

[QuantumFX]

It is true that tying the group bonus to an event gives us the ability to monitor and moderate the bonus, but we think people will dig it. Part of this change allows us to have some nice "raid weekends"; it's a good bonus and system to have. Having it on an event also gives us a bit more wiggle room on the - amount - of the bonus.

You should have it automagically turn on at 12:01 am Friday and go away at 12 pm on Saturday!

If we were to see dramatic changes in grouping behavior, it's clearly something we'd look at. Our hope is that these changes have a beneficial impact, and address some long-standing concerns raised by near-everyone over the years. This will not be on the first deployment to Lamannia, but our hope is to get some of these changes out for public previewing soon-ish. Thanks for the great feedback so far!

If it works as advertised, it is an overall positive change for the game. At the very least I will be more inclined to take my main into the higher level epic content rather than worrying about maintaining my streak.

[nibel]

~ The Flawless bonus to experience now only counts your character's deaths instead of the entire party. This means if you invite someone less familiar with the content to your group and they die you won't lose your XP bonus unless you also die.

It has been asked by the community as a whole for ages. I just want to say that I liked the current mechanic more.

~ Henchman deaths no longer reduce the flawless XP penalty.

No way to make the death impact the henchman contractor only? If you pay for an employee, it is your responsibility to take care of him/her. And it is not like 5% XP make that huge impact when the bonus reach three digits.

~ There is now an NPC in the Hall of Heroes that will suppress your Bravery Streak and associated bonuses. While suppressed you can go off and do content on lower difficulties without ruining your streak. This allows you to group with friends, or join pick up groups, or even do new content on lower difficulty settings without ruining your bravery streak. Note that while suppressed bravery streaks are not ended, but you don't get associated bravery bonuses.

Any chance to also HARD CAP the Streak count to 5? I think most people are unwilling to break their streak because the number raises too much while doing a heroic life, and psychology make us forget it is actually capped at 5. Seeing it actually frozen at the number 5 will make many people perceive how easy is to rebuild your streak again.

[davmuzl]

Excuse me but why should we be forced to run Elite?

Back in the day people when E/H/N/N/N to infinity on certain quests because it was FASTER!

These days they run EN instead of EH or EE again because it's FASTER!

There's nothing the Devs can do to make N or EN slower than H/E or EH/EE and frankly the xp differential between N and E on the same quest is already massive so anymore would be over-kill!



And how exactly is this going to make more people run Elite?

The above two quotes are complete opposites!

You can't have Elite be both hard enough to make people group AND have more people running Elite than N/H - It just doesn't work like that!

The idea is that elite should give as much xp/min as normal or more. You are not forced to run elite, but you get more xp. And it's not only elite which is too easy. Also grouping doesn't directly have something to do with difficulty. If players group depends on the scaling of the quest. The difficulty simply depends on efficiency.
I'm also not asking for more xp on higher difficulty. I'm saying the system is good.

[FranOhmsford]

The idea is that elite should give as much xp/min as normal or more. You are not forced to run elite, but you get more xp. And it's not only elite which is too easy. Also grouping doesn't directly have something to do with difficulty. If players group depends on the scaling of the quest. The difficulty simply depends on efficiency.
I'm also not asking for more xp on higher difficulty. I'm saying the system is good.

How do you make elite give exactly or even approximately the same xp/min as normal when there's so many different playstyles, gear set-ups, Builds and yes even skillsets in the game?

Who do you base it on? The Completionist Zerger who blasts through quests doing the minimal possible?
Or the 1st Life Flower Sniffer who takes 90 mins to run Heroic Wizard King?
Or somewhere in between but where in between?

If Elite gives the same XP/Min as normal and normal is 10x easier than Elite what incentive is there to run Elite?
If other incentives are given to Elite {Favour, Loot etc.} then what incentive is there to run anything other than Elite?


I'll tell you now {and I've said this many times before} that if Favour was removed from Elite I'd have no reason to run Elite EVER!
I don't care about XP/Min - I barely care about XP at all as it's so easy to get!

The ONLY reason I run Elite at all is for Favour!
OK and Saga Guild Renown but I can get that by running Heroic GH on a Lvl 28!

The ONLY reason I don't run Normal or Hard is because I only want to run each quest ONCE {per life} - Running Hard or Normal at Lvl would leave me having to go back later on to get the Favour!


If the Devs moved all Elite Favour to Hard and gave the True Elite Saga Rewards to Hard you'd never see me in an Elite again!
There'd be absolutely no reason for me to want to run Elite!

[Cordovan]

When you suppress your BB...does that suppress for the whole party or just you?

It is an individual toggle, so just you.

[arkonas]

Players:

1. Has so much knowledge/experience/gear/plat/TP/favor/past lives and just plain LEET UBERNESS!!!!(Attitude) that he doesn't feel any incentive to group with anyone who doesn't offer some BIG advantage to his group. "I don't need anybody! Don't you dare slow me down!"---(WON'T HELP)

2. Very experienced, well equipped/funded/organized/efficient willing to include anyone who doesn't cause a complete failure. ---(might help)

3. Reasonably experienced with above average gear and resources(minor "farming/grind", maybe few or no past lives). He knows he still has work ahead of him but has built something of consequence. "Working with others is probably still a good idea"---(will help)

4. Heroic experience through upper/mid levels with some good/named gear and an "OK" understanding of feats/skills/enhancements. "I'm a team player if you are" ---(appreciates help and will help)

5. Has almost half of the adventure packs and considerable enthusiasm for anyone who will "offer a pass" or an elite opener. Beginning to love the game - but still unaware of a ton of things the "old timers" know.----(needs some help and will help as much as can)

6. "My buddy and I just started playing, but he can't play this weekend. Can I run with you guys?" ----(needs help for sure)

You can only take 5. You're the leader. Who do you choose?

p.s. Hirelings are still an option I suppose.

Pseudograph

p.s. I think the general idea behind these changes is pretty good. Implementation/application is always the tricky bit.

i would rather have hundreds of 2-6 then a number 1. i will take 5 6's over just one 1.

[JOTMON]

Players:

1. Has so much knowledge/experience/gear/plat/TP/favor/past lives and just plain LEET UBERNESS!!!!(Attitude) that he doesn't feel any incentive to group with anyone who doesn't offer some BIG advantage to his group. "I don't need anybody! Don't you dare slow me down!"---(WON'T HELP)

2. Very experienced, well equipped/funded/organized/efficient willing to include anyone who doesn't cause a complete failure. ---(might help)

3. Reasonably experienced with above average gear and resources(minor "farming/grind", maybe few or no past lives). He knows he still has work ahead of him but has built something of consequence. "Working with others is probably still a good idea"---(will help)

4. Heroic experience through upper/mid levels with some good/named gear and an "OK" understanding of feats/skills/enhancements. "I'm a team player if you are" ---(appreciates help and will help)

5. Has almost half of the adventure packs and considerable enthusiasm for anyone who will "offer a pass" or an elite opener. Beginning to love the game - but still unaware of a ton of things the "old timers" know.----(needs some help and will help as much as can)

6. "My buddy and I just started playing, but he can't play this weekend. Can I run with you guys?" ----(needs help for sure)

You can only take 5. You're the leader. Who do you choose?

p.s. Hirelings are still an option I suppose.

Pseudograph

p.s. I think the general idea behind these changes is pretty good. Implementation/application is always the tricky bit.

The first 5 to hit my lfm .. of course..

[rehakp]

Those changes looks promissing and will encourage partying i believe.

But i would take 1 more step for low populated servers/times. Are you considering crossserver dungens/partying maybe ?

PS: and minor question about BB streak. If i have BB streak -> supress it (turn OFF) to run dungeon on normal -> run the dungeon -> turn ON BB -> run this same dungeon on Elite .... wil i get BB for this dungeon ? (my guess is not but just wonder)

[Faltout]

Ok, so while the bonus is suppressed, you will not get a bonus.
The question is: When it is unsuppressed, are you able to get the bravery bonus for the quest you did earlier by doing it on elite this time?

Bumping my question since I see noone else is asking it (and it seems pretty important...)

EDIT: Ok, I just got hijacked

[Maelphistez]

@Dev Team -

Whatever other opinions are expressed elsewhere in this thread, I just wanted to go on record and say thank you for this quality of life change. It may not be how I would have done it, but I think this change addresses a real problem. I care less about the "death penalty" change as it's pretty minor to me, but the ability to pause Bravery Bonus will in my experience be a huge boost to grouping. I think that you guys catch a lot of flack from some of the more vocal players about some of your decisions (and yes, I have been among them at times), so when I see you get it right I want to at least express my appreciation. Thanks again for the change.

[Cleanincubus]

Based on player feedback we are implementing some experience changes.

~ The Flawless bonus to experience now only counts your character's deaths instead of the entire party. This means if you invite someone less familiar with the content to your group and they die you won't lose your XP bonus unless you also die.

~ Henchman deaths no longer reduce the flawless XP penalty.

~ There is now an NPC in the Hall of Heroes that will suppress your Bravery Streak and associated bonuses. While suppressed you can go off and do content on lower difficulties without ruining your streak. This allows you to group with friends, or join pick up groups, or even do new content on lower difficulty settings without ruining your bravery streak. Note that while suppressed bravery streaks are not ended, but you don't get associated bravery bonuses.

We also have some special events coming up to reward grouping.

~ We are working on an additional DDO bonus days event that will award a percentage bonus on completion XP for each additional person in your dungeon group. This will not affect raids.

~ We are working on an additional DDO bonus days event that will award a percentage bonus on completion XP for each additional person in your raid group. This will not affect dungeons.

Sev~

Decent changes. However, I don't see any of this helping PUGs, at all. Large guilds (and guild alliances), and the Bravery Bonus have killed the PUGs. None of these changes are incentives enough to encourage people to group any more than they do now. Guild members will still group up with other guild members, and other guilds they are aligned with, especially when pausing the BB or when these special events go on. Of course there are exceptions, but not enough to make a real impact, as I'm sure you'll see the data for.

[dunklezhan]

It is true that tying the group bonus to an event gives us the ability to monitor and moderate the bonus, but we think people will dig it. Part of this change allows us to have some nice "raid weekends"; it's a good bonus and system to have. Having it on an event also gives us a bit more wiggle room on the - amount - of the bonus.

If we were to see dramatic changes in grouping behavior, it's clearly something we'd look at. Our hope is that these changes have a beneficial impact, and address some long-standing concerns raised by near-everyone over the years. This will not be on the first deployment to Lamannia, but our hope is to get some of these changes out for public previewing soon-ish. Thanks for the great feedback so far!

I agree with you. My first thought was 'bonus grouping days, that's awesome'.

I would be interested in the real figures, but I would bet that after cove or mabar have been up, there are more groups in general for a while, as people remember that actually it's pretty fun and not that scary to PuG at all. Clearly if so it doesn't last, but that would be the beauty of special grouping days/raid weekends which would be shorter duration, but more frequent than cove needs to be, because cove needs to be intensive. What it would do is keep those little reminders going that PuGs are not horrid like they are in some games, and this might genuinely lead to 'trickle down' effect, i.e. a general rise in grouping - I don't expect miracles, but even a modest 10% rise on the base line would be noticeable.

Don't have them on all the time, too many people would keep returning to the idea that 'if I can finish solo three times in the time it takes to fill a group, then I'll just solo'. Special days would make more people make a special effort (yes it would, because I would make more of a special effort. That's 'more', strictly speaking, right? ), meaning for those focussed XP/min players there would be more groups to join, rather than them having to post and wait themselves.

So I say: yes to the grouping bonuses for special days, no to a permanent grouping bonus.


Or possibly, if I was feeling greedy, yes to a permanent grouping bonus, yes to an even higher special day grouping bonus. But I don't think that a permanent grouping bonus is needed. I just like XP

[kmoustakas]

Based on player feedback we are implementing some experience changes.

~ The Flawless bonus to experience now only counts your character's deaths instead of the entire party. This means if you invite someone less familiar with the content to your group and they die you won't lose your XP bonus unless you also die.

~ Henchman deaths no longer reduce the flawless XP penalty.

~ There is now an NPC in the Hall of Heroes that will suppress your Bravery Streak and associated bonuses. While suppressed you can go off and do content on lower difficulties without ruining your streak. This allows you to group with friends, or join pick up groups, or even do new content on lower difficulty settings without ruining your bravery streak. Note that while suppressed bravery streaks are not ended, but you don't get associated bravery bonuses.

We also have some special events coming up to reward grouping.

~ We are working on an additional DDO bonus days event that will award a percentage bonus on completion XP for each additional person in your dungeon group. This will not affect raids.

~ We are working on an additional DDO bonus days event that will award a percentage bonus on completion XP for each additional person in your raid group. This will not affect dungeons.

Sev~

These look awesome! Good thinking!

[lostgunman]

Yes, Yes, Yes, Yes, Yes....All of that sounds like an excellent game plan.

[DagazUlf]

I just can't help but be reminded of Mournlanders giving feedback that matches with these changes, oh.... let's see, years ago at this point.