Upcoming Experience Changes

[Severlin]

Based on player feedback we are implementing some experience changes.

~ The Flawless bonus to experience now only counts your character's deaths instead of the entire party. This means if you invite someone less familiar with the content to your group and they die you won't lose your XP bonus unless you also die.

~ Henchman deaths no longer reduce the flawless XP penalty.

~ There is now an NPC in the Hall of Heroes that will suppress your Bravery Streak and associated bonuses. While suppressed you can go off and do content on lower difficulties without ruining your streak. This allows you to group with friends, or join pick up groups, or even do new content on lower difficulty settings without ruining your bravery streak. Note that while suppressed bravery streaks are not ended, but you don't get associated bravery bonuses.

We also have some special events coming up to reward grouping.

~ We are working on an additional DDO bonus days event that will award a percentage bonus on completion XP for each additional person in your dungeon group. This will not affect raids.

~ We are working on an additional DDO bonus days event that will award a percentage bonus on completion XP for each additional person in your raid group. This will not affect dungeons.

Sev~

[cru121]

Looks like a step in the right direction.

[Uska]

Looks like a step in the right direction.

No its not

[Saekee]

Sev this is exciting and thx for the post. Will there be bonuses if no one dies in a party/PUG? Something to add incentive to not abandon other players.

[Severlin]

Sev this is exciting and thx for the post. Will there be bonuses if no one dies in a party/PUG? Something to add incentive to not abandon other players.

The current death penalty was supposed to do that, but from the feedback we received it ended up being more of a disincentive to grouping than a reward for helping people through the quest.

Sev~

[Saekee]

The current death penalty was supposed to do that, but from the feedback we received it ended up being more of a disincentive to grouping than a reward for helping people through the quest.

Sev~

Thx for the prompt reply! Note, though, that there are carrots vs sticks. The penalty was a stick to help fellow players and this proposal will remove it. Was just curious if there would be a carrot to aiding them.

In past threads on this topic, this was hotly debated. I anticipate that this theme will come up again.

[Tscheuss]

Thx for the prompt reply! Note, though, that there are carrots vs sticks. The penalty was a stick to help fellow players and this proposal will remove it. Was just curious if there would be a carrot to aiding them.

In past threads on this topic, this was hotly debated. I anticipate that this theme will come up again.

The Flawless bonus was a carrot to encourage teamwork, but certain players began to view it as their due. It was the players that turned a bonus into a penalty and a carrot into a stick. Now the teamwork carrot is being demoted to an individual carrot, and the teamwork carrot is already being missed. lol

[jjflanigan]

The current death penalty was supposed to do that, but from the feedback we received it ended up being more of a disincentive to grouping than a reward for helping people through the quest.

Sev~

I always wondered why it was implemented the way it was. A better way (just in my opinion) to have it implemented would be for it to give a bonus at the end of the quest for each person in the group that didn't die. 2% per person would be good. That would encourage running with a full group because, worst case, you get the exact same you would have gotten alone, and best case you could get an extra 10%. Could even do 2% for no deaths, 1% for one death, 0% for more than one deaths from a person.

Makes it so another person's death doesn't penalize the player, and also encourages grouping because you have a greater chance for exp bonuses -- two birds with one stone.

-JJ

[Severlin]

I always wondered why it was implemented the way it was. A better way (just in my opinion) to have it implemented would be for it to give a bonus at the end of the quest for each person in the group that didn't die. 2% per person would be good. That would encourage running with a full group because, worst case, you get the exact same you would have gotten alone, and best case you could get an extra 10%. Could even do 2% for no deaths, 1% for one death, 0% for more than one deaths from a person.

Makes it so another person's death doesn't penalize the player, and also encourages grouping because you have a greater chance for exp bonuses -- two birds with one stone.

-JJ

We didn't do something like this because it would be a nerf to solo XP.

Sev~

[Sebastrd]

We didn't do something like this because it would be a nerf to solo XP.

Sev~

I'm not sure that's a bad thing, and I say that as someone who solos often.

[Requiro]

We didn't do something like this because it would be a nerf to solo XP.
Sev~

I do not agree and even do not understand that kind of thinking at all

Arguments:
1. In solo mode you do not waste time for looking for team. Thus you can spend more time for more questing = more XP
2. Nerf is when you take sth down. You rise XP for group, thus only some solo whiners will look at this as a nerf.
3. DnD was essential group game only. While DDO is not DnD, players know the origins, and will understand why groups get some advantage.
4. Grouping is the future in that kind of game, where you fight against computer AI, not real people (PvP). That’s why grouping should get some advantage.

For now grouping is dangerous. You can lose XP and Time, while you get NOTHING in return.
Groups right now are only for fun.

If you want more groups, give them something special. Like more XP (like in proposal you answered) or something crazy ideas like additional slot loot, 2nd quest reward, more platinum, same group bravery stark (all ideas depends of group size) ect.

[Uska]

The current death penalty was supposed to do that, but from the feedback we received it ended up being more of a disincentive to grouping than a reward for helping people through the quest.

Sev~

Now I have less incentive to group myself really. I miss the old days where solo was more difficult d&d is a group game you guys are ruining that more and more.

[Montrose]

Now I have less incentive to group myself really. I miss the old days where solo was more difficult d&d is a group game you guys are ruining that more and more.

Why do you have less incentive to solo? For me, this is an incentive to group more. I tend to solo a lot, in large part due to the exp penalty for dying (both me not wanting to affect someone else's exp and not wanting to be affected by them in return). Another reason I solo a lot is because folks tend to summon hirelings, and those hirelings are extremely fragile.

This addresses all of those concerns:
- I no longer affect other people's exp if I die
- I am no longer affected by the terrible terrible hireling AI
- I am no longer affected if someone else dies

Seems like all goodness to me.

[Qhualor]

Why do you have less incentive to solo? For me, this is an incentive to group more. I tend to solo a lot, in large part due to the exp penalty for dying (both me not wanting to affect someone else's exp and not wanting to be affected by them in return). Another reason I solo a lot is because folks tend to summon hirelings, and those hirelings are extremely fragile.

This addresses all of those concerns:
- I no longer affect other people's exp if I die
- I am no longer affected by the terrible terrible hireling AI
- I am no longer affected if someone else dies

Seems like all goodness to me.

When you walk into a quest, subtract 10% of the base xp. That's how much of a loss it is. It's extremely minor. Look at how much xp you actually gain at the end. It makes losing the Flawless Bonus pretty insignificant.

[Uska]

Why do you have less incentive to solo? For me, this is an incentive to group more. I tend to solo a lot, in large part due to the exp penalty for dying (both me not wanting to affect someone else's exp and not wanting to be affected by them in return). Another reason I solo a lot is because folks tend to summon hirelings, and those hirelings are extremely fragile.

This addresses all of those concerns:
- I no longer affect other people's exp if I die
- I am no longer affected by the terrible terrible hireling AI
- I am no longer affected if someone else dies

Seems like all goodness to me.

If someone dying would cost them experience then they have incentive to keep them alive

[Memnir]

Based on player feedback we are implementing some experience changes.

~ The Flawless bonus to experience now only counts your character's deaths instead of the entire party. This means if you invite someone less familiar with the content to your group and they die you won't lose your XP bonus unless you also die.

[Qhualor]

Based on player feedback we are implementing some experience changes.

~ The Flawless bonus to experience now only counts your character's deaths instead of the entire party. This means if you invite someone less familiar with the content to your group and they die you won't lose your XP bonus unless you also die.

~ Henchman deaths no longer reduce the flawless XP penalty.

~ There is now an NPC in the Hall of Heroes that will suppress your Bravery Streak and associated bonuses. While suppressed you can go off and do content on lower difficulties without ruining your streak. This allows you to group with friends, or join pick up groups, or even do new content on lower difficulty settings without ruining your bravery streak. Note that while suppressed bravery streaks are not ended, but you don't get associated bravery bonuses.

We also have some special events coming up to reward grouping.

~ We are working on an additional DDO bonus days event that will award a percentage bonus on completion XP for each additional person in your dungeon group. This will not affect raids.

~ We are working on an additional DDO bonus days event that will award a percentage bonus on completion XP for each additional person in your raid group. This will not affect dungeons.

Sev~

1. theres another nail towards less reasons for teamwork in a group.

2. fine with that.

3. glad to see something is being done about this, but annoying having to run back and forth to the Hall to turn on/off BB. hopefully there will be some kind of checkbox or something when clicking on the quest, picking up the quest at the quest giver, in the options section of the panel or something.

4 & 5. there is more than enough xp in this game and its become too much of a focal point now. im saying it now in black and white, people who want to group will group and people who want to solo will solo regardless of the extra xp. we will see more complaints from soloists on this extra xp rewards. I seriously doubt there will be a significant increase in grouping with these changes. the actual problem is still not being addressed.

[Saekee]

1. theres another nail towards less reasons for teamwork in a group.

2. fine with that.

3. glad to see something is being done about this, but annoying having to run back and forth to the Hall to turn on/off BB. hopefully there will be some kind of checkbox or something when clicking on the quest, picking up the quest at the quest giver, in the options section of the panel or something.

4 & 5. there is more than enough xp in this game and its become too much of a focal point now. im saying it now in black and white, people who want to group will group and people who want to solo will solo regardless of the extra xp. we will see more complaints from soloists on this extra xp rewards. I seriously doubt there will be a significant increase in grouping with these changes. the actual problem is still not being addressed.

Great points. Note, though, another part of the argument. I think people tend to take the perspective of the person who loses xp when someone else croaks in the party. But let's not forget how awful it feels when You are that one-death in the xp report. I wonder how many people who are new, with flavor toons, off-destiny, undergeared etc avoid groups so as to not be a burden? This has happened in my case, for what it is worth--I've been in situations where I didn't want to burden others so I solo'd.

[Enoach]

Thx for the prompt reply! Note, though, that there are carrots vs sticks. The penalty was a stick to help fellow players and this proposal will remove it. Was just curious if there would be a carrot to aiding them.

In past threads on this topic, this was hotly debated. I anticipate that this theme will come up again.

See here in lies the problem. The No Deaths was implemented as a Bonus, but treated by a large part of the DDO population as a Penalty. It was ours to earn which should have generated teamwork, but out of this came a population of "I don't want someone else losing my XP". I think part of the problem is that it is listed on the XP report from the start and disappears once someone die.

Great points. Note, though, another part of the argument. I think people tend to take the perspective of the person who loses xp when someone else croaks in the party. But let's not forget how awful it feels when You are that one-death in the xp report. I wonder how many people who are new, with flavor toons, off-destiny, undergeared etc avoid groups so as to not be a burden? This has happened in my case, for what it is worth--I've been in situations where I didn't want to burden others so I solo'd.

I've spent many a time consoling someone that was have a hard time because they had experienced someone that was mad at them because they died.


--------------------------
Now on another note and I'm not sure how this can be handled, but what about situations in quests where a player can kill other players. Quests like Undermine and Blown to Bits come to mind. as well as The Shipwrecked Spy. These quests have a mechanic which can be and has been abused. I imagine if these quests were around when a player lost XP the griefing that could have been done...

But I can also see people bringing others along to "take one for the team" to handle situations where dying is a possibility. Such as pulling a trapped lever when no one to disable (Wiz King has a few of these)

Personally I would have preferred to see this bonus go away all together and replaced with "Everyone Alive and at the 'End' of the Quest" on completion bonus. It would make it so that it is better if you make sure everyone can make it to the end instead of leaving people behind.

[Hoglum]

The No Deaths was implemented as a Bonus, but treated by a large part of the DDO population as a Penalty.

Likewise, the "grouping bonus" will simply become a "soloing penalty".