The Path to Enlightenment

[jestrua]

Sounds like you are missing 175 mana, between tier 2 and 3 greensteel and archmagi from the VoD bracers/necro dagger. That should not account for completely running out of mana in one round. Maximize and empower both on is over-healing. You should normally be running with onlyempowered-healing for the most mana-efficiency and be using your 6-8th level masses depending upon your potency set-up. If your tanks are poorly playing they may take alot of damage, in which case you may want to use maximize as well as empowered healing. Secondly, you should not be using a mass to cure one squishy tank. Hit him with a scroll or a mana heal, wait for the group to drop below 50% before you hit a mass. Every spot heal you can hit saves you mana (but like you said, it doesn't matter so much anymore in the the shroud). Quicken is a crutch, you shouldn't have to use quicken unless you have serious issues with interuption (which is not an issue in part 4, properly played). You should be able to heal without quicken and keep people alive. If not, you should keep quicken on until you develop more experience. Quicken is a crutch, don't forget it. You should wean yourself off of it when you think you are ready. -I know you said you don't use quicken, its for others who may read it. And don't forget you can have the arcanes put up mass protects for you regularly.

I prefer dwarven or human clerics with 16-18 wisdom starting, good con, decent strength, dump stat charisma. Have a 10th level FS at the moment, so I haven't seen him in end-game. Not too impressed so far, I would stay cleric. Seem limited as far as spell selection. The extra-mana is nice, and will help healers that haven't found the way yet, but for those of us that know a cleric well, the extra mana isn't needed and having charisma and wisdom isn't possible without killing everything else (even then, your level ups only go one spot, wisdom if you are smart). The amount of mana a 20th level cleric gets is crazy already (and clerics get empowered healing), I don't think more mana is worth the FS. I have seen FS that claim they have 3100 mana, but were still using mana pots (figure that one out). As far as the fighting ability, it doesn't seem that impressive, though splashing FS with monk/fighter/pally in a battle-cleric sort of build is probably pretty good. Wings are the only thing that make it cool for me.

i dont dump stat cha . cha give you more turns and with servant it can get you out of a pinch . if you keep quicken on once you tet it as soon as you can , you wont need concentration skills and can add umd . your opostion cloak made with cha is nice too as more umd and also devine might is nice with an ok base cha 14 . atleast devine might 2 anyhow . still looking for builds but may just go with what i know . any build s out there incorporating tr ? this one has leviks set.

[The_Great_Samulas]

i dont dump stat cha . cha give you more turns and with servant it can get you out of a pinch . if you keep quicken on once you tet it as soon as you can , you wont need concentration skills and can add umd . your opostion cloak made with cha is nice too as more umd and also devine might is nice with an ok base cha 14 . atleast devine might 2 anyhow . still looking for builds but may just go with what i know . any build s out there incorporating tr ? this one has leviks set.

This thread has been around for quite some time now. The post you are quoting is a year and four months old. Way before radiant servant came out. Much has changed since then. It sounds like you are fairly new to clerics so I'll just note a few things, you can read the rest of the thread to help with others:

-Dump stating charisma is a viable option, especially on Dwarves and Half-orcs. I do like to pick up DM II/III on my builds, but it is a significant investment in build points without a legend build.

-Your views on concentration I've seen quite often in new and intermediate skill players. I recommend always picking up concentration and balance. UMD and intimidate are also good skills. Using quicken instead of concentration is a path to mana pot addiction. An end stage cleric, that is skilled, will waste a mana pots worth of mana to just quicken his spells - most clerics using this technique are actually unskilled and use far more. I go over this in more detail in the thread.

-For my build philosophy see page 10 of the thread.

-The leviks set is obsolete for most builds, and is too slot intensive for a cleric. You may be actually referring to the Lorricks Champion set, which is also obsolete, as amarath clickies are better, and don't require 2 or 3 slots. The necklace is still useful for the enhancement to empowered healing, but you can get that elsewhere.

-I have a build on the forums here, that incorporates TRs and is more modern. I don't recommend you use it as I don't think you are ready to play at the level the build is meant for yet. A more specialized build such as an offensive caster build is what I would recommend at this point. I put it here for others reading the thread.

[guardianx2009]

Charisma is good for the following reasons:
1. Turn Undead
PRO: Is very potent now with Radiant Servant. At later levels, Radiant Burst becomes the stronger, more viable option. TU still has it's situational uses.

CON: Rarely any undead at endgame. Even if there are, they are Deathwarded.

2. Turns
PRO: Everyone's stated this already. Saves mana on heals. Very useful for Radiant Bursts/Aura/divine might, I find having 14 - 16 turns the sweet spot.

CON: none.

3. UMD
PRO: You can UMD scroll of master's touch. That enables you to wield martial weapons, specifically, one of the best melee weapons in the game: Rapiers. WITHOUT the cost of a weapon prof. feat. With improved crit: Pierce, DMIII (or IV), seeker+10, and any racial attack/dam bonus, your melee gets a significant boost.

CON: You have to invest at least 2 skill points in UMD. Have to have an arcane with greater teleport or someone to buy you a stack for Master's Touch scrolls. You constantly have to re-apply proficiency after each rest/death.

Strength is good for the following reasons:
1. Bonus toHit/Dam
PRO: This helps with your melee, you don't have to hunt for +hit/dam gear.

CON: If you think about it, difference between 16 - 12 str is 4 points. That is only +2 boost tohit/dam. The bonus alone isn't going to make you melee viable if you're running around with a mace. You can still have 12str and hit like you have 16 if you compensate via items/racial enhancement (Anger Wrath +2 hit, Insight Googles + 1 hit, spectral gloves)

2. Burden
PRO: Being burdened stinks. More strength = less likely to be burdened.

CON: Between 8 - 12 str, you should be able to overcome being constantly burdened as long as you boost your str with items, buffs, etc and stop being a packrat and carry light.


In the end, I firmly believe Charisma opens up a lot of things you can do with your cleric now as compared to strength.

[The_Great_Samulas]

While I agree with your general take on charisma vs. strength, I think you are missing out on an aspect of melee with pure clerics. That is enhancements like the following give the proficiency in the weapon as well:

Follower of the Undying Court
Usage: Passive
Cost: 2 action points
Races: Elf Only
Half-Elf Only
Available to Paladin class level 1
High Elf or Half-Elf only. You are guided by the wisdom of the deathless of Aerenal, and are a true believer in the ways of the Undying Court. Existence is a spiritual journey requiring far longer than a single lifetime. Only the Undying can ever truly learn what great wonders lie at its end. Grants a +1 bonus to hit with scimitars, the favored weapon of the clergy of the Undying Court.

Follower of the Sovereign Host
Usage: Passive
Cost: 2 action points
Available to Paladin class level 1
You are a Vassal of the Sovereign Host, a true believer in the Doctrine of Universal Sovereignty. As is the world, so are the gods. As are the gods, so is the world. Grants a +1 bonus to hit with longswords, the favored weapon of the clergy of the Sovereign Host.

There is never a reason for a cleric to have to be running around swinging a mace, unless he likes to. Rapiers are generally not all that hot of a weapon, unless you are banishing with them, or you are a dex build using weapon finesse (which isn't really a DPS situation, or an optimal clerical build). Scimitars are the same in a slashing version and tend to work well with cleric and FvS builds, because of the synergy with the undying court enhancements.

You have a good point about the use of master's touch, but this use is usually done at lower levels to use one handed weapons you may not have proficiency in that are in your twink box. But at endgame the use of UMD is predominantly for enervation scrolls (to lower a targets resistance without mana), fireshield scrolls, and teleporting.

Charisma is mostly important for divine might. This is a potent enhancement that allows a cleric with less than stellar strength and class benefits to have worthwhile damage/second. You will need a 16 in this for divine might two (with tomes-nothing else counts other than level ups). It also helps with radiant servant, but even with a base six charisma you have enough of them with enhancements and stat buffs. Your sweet spot of 14-16 is really high for most non-healbot players. I think you will find that as you gain experience, you will not need as many of these turn undead uses. I have plenty with 11. I could easily see someone doing fine with 6 or 7. More is always better, but you have to weigh that against what you are giving up to get it.

[guardianx2009]

I'm aware of Undying Court and Soveriegn Host enhancements. I agree on Undying Court as it grants scimitars which are basically the same as rapiers. But it's race restricted, so not an option unless you are elf/halfelf. I've used Soveriegn Host Longswords before. Even with improved crit, I found my dps lacking. Then I tried rapiers with improved crit, and the difference is stark. And yes, banishing is a very nice bonus and is incredibly effective in vale.

Point is, CHA allows you the option use Scimitars (if you're non elf)/Rapiers. Weapons that you normally wouldn't have proficiency in. Something not alot of people know about.

I ran cha-dumped clerics with only 7-11 turns and I've ran clerics with up to 19 turns. I find how much you need depends on on playstyle. I like to run in there, CC (if necessary), melee (since I have rapiers I can actually hit for 70-100dam every 3 hits), and burst heal. Per encounter, you throw up Aura, DM and Burst. That alone is 3 turns...

[soupertc]

I'm aware of Undying Court and Soveriegn Host enhancements. I agree on Undying Court as it grants scimitars which are basically the same as rapiers. But it's race restricted, so not an option unless you are elf/halfelf. I've used Soveriegn Host Longswords before. Even with improved crit, I found my dps lacking. Then I tried rapiers with improved crit, and the difference is stark. And yes, banishing is a very nice bonus and is incredibly effective in vale.

Point is, CHA allows you the option use Scimitars (if you're non elf)/Rapiers. Weapons that you normally wouldn't have proficiency in. Something not alot of people know about.

I ran cha-dumped clerics with only 7-11 turns and I've ran clerics with up to 19 turns. I find how much you need depends on on playstyle. I like to run in there, CC (if necessary), melee (since I have rapiers I can actually hit for 70-100dam every 3 hits), and burst heal. Per encounter, you throw up Aura, DM and Burst. That alone is 3 turns...

Well I have the same play style as you(ummm Sam does too.... that's what this thread is about) and I have 8(I'm a dump stat CHA guy) TU that I use for Burst and Aura and never have issues with mana either. So what is your point?

[guardianx2009]

Well I have the same play style as you(ummm Sam does too.... that's what this thread is about) and I have 8(I'm a dump stat CHA guy) TU that I use for Burst and Aura and never have issues with mana either. So what is your point?

Who said anything about running out of mana? Either you don't mind running out of turns, you run with very good groups, or you've learned to use it more sparingly, mixing in mana spells. You didn't mention use of DM, I use that frequently. Whatever works for you, right? Some people are perfectly happy with 1800sp, some aren't.

My point was to indicate that Charisma has more to offer and that it's not so black and white when choosing to put points in CHA vs STR.

[soupertc]

Who said anything about running out of mana? Either you don't mind running out of turns, you run with very good groups, or you've learned to use it more sparingly, mixing in mana spells. You didn't mention use of DM, I use that frequently. Whatever works for you, right? Some people are perfectly happy with 1800sp, some aren't.

My point was to indicate that Charisma has more to offer and that it's not so black and white when choosing to put points in CHA vs STR.

ok sure. But I'm still trying to figure out how CHA helps with Scimmys and Rapiers? I'm not understanding that at all. How does a high Cha give ya profc in that weapon?

And I stated I'm a Cha Dump Stat cleric.....so no DM. With the Str I have buffed on my cleric I don't need it(with right gear I will be able to hit 40...and yes I'm close to getting the gear). I run with all kinds of people....good groups...bad groups. I PUG alot more than most people do on healers I think and even with the 8 TU I have for Aura and Burst with the rate of regen I've never thought "Man I wish I had more".

The running out of mana thing is cause the primary reason most people seem focused on getting as many TU as they can is to use that as thier primary way to heal....allowing them to use mana elsewhere...namley CC and BB I assume.I was simply stating(poorly perhaps) that I can do all these thing with less TU and less mana than most clerics have as max( I have 2070) with mana left over(which if I complete a quest with leftover I feel I could have done more ).

[guardianx2009]

ok sure. But I'm still trying to figure out how CHA helps with Scimmys and Rapiers? I'm not understanding that at all. How does a high Cha give ya profc in that weapon?

High Cha boosts UMD, which allows you to to use Scroll of Master's Touch.

Master's Touch
Cooldown: 2 seconds
Spell Point Cost:
Target: Friend, Self
Level:
1 (Bard, Sorcerer, Wizard)
Components: Focus, Verbal
School: Divination
Metamagic:
Spell Resistance: No
Enchants the items currently equipped in the target's left and right hands to grant their wielder proficiency if the items are simple or martial weapons or shields. This enchantment lasts until the target rests.

[soupertc]

High Cha boosts UMD, which allows you to to use Scroll of Master's Touch.

Master's Touch
Cooldown: 2 seconds
Spell Point Cost:
Target: Friend, Self
Level:
1 (Bard, Sorcerer, Wizard)
Components: Focus, Verbal
School: Divination
Metamagic:
Spell Resistance: No
Enchants the items currently equipped in the target's left and right hands to grant their wielder proficiency if the items are simple or martial weapons or shields. This enchantment lasts until the target rests.

OK so a skill helps gain it not the stat.....now that makes sense.

I don't worry about not being prof in a weapon on my cleric. I carry +5 or greater bane weapons if I want to do DPS...and with all the buffs even with -4 to hit I hardly miss. I plan on using a Epic SoS on my cleric when I get the shard when I go DPS...it's a +10 weapon(+6 in my hands of course). If your gonna go with Improv Crit I would think coupled with Masters Touch I would go slashing an grab a weapon with x3 damage.....hell I do that and I'm not prof in them!!!!

[guardianx2009]

OK so a skill helps gain it not the stat.....now that makes sense.

I don't worry about not being prof in a weapon on my cleric. I carry +5 or greater bane weapons if I want to do DPS...and with all the buffs even with -4 to hit I hardly miss. I plan on using a Epic SoS on my cleric when I get the shard when I go DPS...it's a +10 weapon(+6 in my hands of course). If your gonna go with Improv Crit I would think coupled with Masters Touch I would go slashing an grab a weapon with x3 damage.....hell I do that and I'm not prof in them!!!!

Yes, I just recently grabbed myself a Holy Burst Heavy Pick of Maiming and I intend load it up and do some serious damage with it. Especially when there's a monk around stunning everything.

[wax_on_wax_off]

Your sweet spot of 14-16 is really high for most non-healbot players. I think you will find that as you gain experience, you will not need as many of these turn undead uses. I have plenty with 11. I could easily see someone doing fine with 6 or 7. More is always better, but you have to weigh that against what you are giving up to get it.

I'm not sure where the sweet spot for turns is but I can certainly say as a cleric who feels confident he is pretty far down the PotE that the extra turns/day are absolutely amazing for not having to use SP to heal. In many quests I simply wouldn't throw a single heal spell and rely on the party keeping up with me and being close enough to benefit from my RS bursts and auras.

I definitely support choosing charisma over strength (Worked well on my finesse drow clonk (28 point drow > 28 point halfling). I had 8 str and never minded, stunning fist + weapon finesse + decent seeker + DMIII + cleric buffs etc. makes for fine melee DPS).

DM also gives better returns on DPS per point of investment than strength. I did the math and when comparing DMII + weapon finesse vs str + power attack (wisdom based either way) the power attack + strength option was in front by 2 damage but -7 to attack on my build, obviously with 2 TRs more options are available but I preferred the extra reflex, AC, AB, turns etc.

[phalaeo]

Somebody please sticky this.

[Aeolwind]

+1 man, well said.

[The_Great_Samulas]

I'm not sure where the sweet spot for turns is but I can certainly say as a cleric who feels confident he is pretty far down the PotE that the extra turns/day are absolutely amazing for not having to use SP to heal. In many quests I simply wouldn't throw a single heal spell and rely on the party keeping up with me and being close enough to benefit from my RS bursts and auras. This is good, but if you aren't using any mana to heal, you probably have more turns than you need, and could probably improve your build by allocating build points elsewhere. I like having enough charisma for DM II/III and making due with whatever turns I get from that.

I definitely support choosing charisma over strength (Worked well on my finesse drow clonk (28 point drow > 28 point halfling). I had 8 str and never minded, stunning fist + weapon finesse + decent seeker + DMIII + cleric buffs etc. makes for fine melee DPS). I prefer a more balanced approach, but I think you are talking about in a clonk setup, which is completely different than a pure. DMIII is tough to swing without drow or a +3/4 tome (though it is very nice).

DM also gives better returns on DPS per point of investment than strength. I did the math and when comparing DMII + weapon finesse vs str + power attack (wisdom based either way) the power attack + strength option was in front by 2 damage but -7 to attack on my build, obviously with 2 TRs more options are available but I preferred the extra reflex, AC, AB, turns etc.

Sounds like a good way to go on a clonk.

Responses in yellow

Somebody please sticky this.

It would make things easier.

+1 man, well said.

Thanks.

[HellsChaos]

+rep for this post OP...great work and a good resource

[The_Great_Samulas]

I was thinking back to what I was doing when I was developing skills on my cleric. I remembered one of the things I would typically do was to solo coalescence chamber (the most disliked quest in the Vale of Twilight). I found it relaxing, when I wanted a break from running groups and raids. This was back before dungeon scaling, so it should be even easier now to solo. But now you also have dungeon alert, which is a problem in this particular quest. Learning the route in the quest takes some time, but it isn't that difficult.

I would recommend soloing this quest when in the 16-18th level range to develop skills, particularly to offensive casters. One particular skill you can develop in this quest is the use of the torc (and to a lesser extent concordiant opposition greensteel) to recharge your mana. You can literally fully recharge your mana bar in this quest by the use of bat/scorpion swarms and shield blocking when necessary.

One switch I made at this point was acquiring all the stones to make signet stones (necessary ingredient for greensteel blanks) on my cleric. The individual stones are not transferrable, but once you make a greensteel blank you can transfer it to another character. Thus, when you have multiple characters to run the shroud with you are better off developing signet stones on just one character. I found my clerics to be the easiest and cheapest to solo these quests on. Coalescence chamber also has the benefit of dropping chipmunk funk and briar twigs out of the end chest (the two most sought after ingredients to make greensteel blanks). The XP is very good for the quest, but it takes about 30 minutes to complete solo (about 500 xp/minute).

Buffs: acid resistance, electrical resistance, freedom of movement, bless, stoneskin clickies (you can make these in the shroud) and spell resistance. Do not extend buffs and watch out for casters dispelling your buffs. You will want to keep Divine Power and Divine Favor up while in melee mode (when you are going that route). You should acquire some invisibility clickies as well. You should hit yourself with one when starting a run up a shaft to help with control of the dungeon alert. Jump potions can be useful, but I found I preferred not to have jump at all, as I got used to doing without it (Amarath belt jump clickie would be useful).

Weapons: I recommend carrying a vorpal with you. Banishing weapons are potent in this quest as well, but the spells dismissal and banishment work even better.

Things to watch out for:

1)There are a considerable amount of traps in the dungeon present at doorways that you open. They trigger if you use the levers to open the door – they DO NOT trigger if you simply stand by the door shield blocking until a mob triggers the opening of the door (sometimes you have to jump back and forth in the opening to trigger this.
2) The dungeon alert can climb to red pretty quickly if you aren’t careful. This isn’t much of a problem for offensive casting, but it can inhibit your movement when harried. Use invis clickies when going up shafts, kill everything you come across at other times (don’t leave swarms behind you). After you get the first key, invis yourself before you drop down the shaft to the door it unlocks, otherwise the dungeon alert will go to red.
3) Killing the mobs at the beginning will give you another chest, but I usually just skip these. You do need to kill everything at the bottom of the long shaft you drop down initially (it is a quest objective).
4) The most problematic encounter is the troll cave before the shrine. The trolls hit hard and can corner you and take you out if you aren’t careful. Treat this encounter cautiously and you will do fine. You can banish and/or bladebarrier this encounter.
5) If you don’t have a torc, bring heal scrolls with you for healing to conserve mana until you know the quest well.
6) The end fight is relatively easy. Put fire resistance on yourself. Banish and bladebarrier the trash. There is a pillar in the room before the end fight. Put bladebarriers on opposite sides of it and just kite the boss around the pillar, using it to shield yourself from the delayed blast fireballs that are his preferred attack.

Shrines: There is one shrine that will reset for you by the time you come back for it. So you will get 3 mana bars. I found the most problematic part is after shrining the first time, having enough mana to deal with the gelatinous cube (enervate with scrolls if you have UMD, energy drain if you are 17th level, followed by destruction) and the ambush afterwards (you have to kill the mobs in the ambush as a quest objective).

Edit - Use banish, dismissal, and destruction as your preferred offensive spells. They even work on the named mobs you have to kill for keys.

[guardianx2009]

My L16 cleric just ran Coalescence on normal with a pug L15 pally. The pug pally was a new and was pretty much a non-factor so it's almost like a solo run, he wracked up about 30 kills while I had over 200. With all the new cleric toys/gears and a banishing rapier, it was rather easy: Banishing Rapier + Shield of Reflecting = pwn everything.

Rapier will banish anything on a crit. Stone Guard from the shield, on proc, stones the mob, putting them in auto-crit state. Only reason BB is used is because I wanted the fights to be over faster. Uber Raid gear not required.

[chloe5819]

Thanks for your wisdom I've been a cleric for a long time but agree that you can never assume you know everything. I just did a TR for the first time as a clr and I definitely played the lower levels a lot different than when I first started out. I like to describe it as I wasn't there to hold their hands which I clearly told them at the beginning of the quest but let them know I'd do my best to keep them alive.

[The_Great_Samulas]

My L16 cleric just ran Coalescence on normal with a pug L15 pally. The pug pally was a new and was pretty much a non-factor so it's almost like a solo run, he wracked up about 30 kills while I had over 200. With all the new cleric toys/gears and a banishing rapier, it was rather easy: Banishing Rapier + Shield of Reflecting = pwn everything.

Rapier will banish anything on a crit. Stone Guard from the shield, on proc, stones the mob, putting them in auto-crit state. Only reason BB is used is because I wanted the fights to be over faster. Uber Raid gear not required.

Sounds good, but don't underestimate anothers contribution just because of kill counts. Having a break from agro can make things significantly easier in this quest, than every single archer and caster always targeting you. If you want to develop your skills I would recommend challenging yourself more. I put this out as a training exercise, the easiest way isn't necessarily the best. If it is easy the way you are doing it, I would recommend trying other strategies to develop those skill sets, doing it on a harder difficulty (here the shrine won't reset), or actually doing it solo. Of course, most beginning players won't have banishing rapiers.

Once you learn coallescent chamber, it is the second easiest vale quest.

Thanks for your wisdom I've been a cleric for a long time but agree that you can never assume you know everything. I just did a TR for the first time as a clr and I definitely played the lower levels a lot different than when I first started out. I like to describe it as I wasn't there to hold their hands which I clearly told them at the beginning of the quest but let them know I'd do my best to keep them alive.

You are welcome. It can be fun playing old toons at the low levels again. It can be amazing how much different things are (alot of this is dungeon scaling for me). It is good that you are encouraging self-awareness in the low levels. New players really need to learn this lesson. If your health drops to 20% you should go into self-preservation mode and not just keep swinging.