The Path to Enlightenment

[PNellesen]

Sounds good, but don't underestimate anothers contribution just because of kill counts. Having a break from agro can make things significantly easier in this quest, than every single archer and caster always targeting you.
...
Once you learn coallescent chamber, it is the second easiest vale quest.

Have to agree with that assessment. My very first Coal Chamber run on my cleric took... well, let's just say it took a VERY long time (NONE of us had ever run it before, and nobody knew you could banish everything in there). Subsequent runs have been about as easy as any very long quest can be, the hardest thing in there now is just remembering which way to go, and when.

Paralyzers also work quite well in there, if you're lacking on banishment weapons. The easiest Coal Chamber run I've been part of was an Elite run that capped my level 19 Ranger - 3 Rangers in the group with paralyzers, and a monk who was paralyzing everything he hit. The cleric didn't have a whole lot to do except keep her aura going and hitting a burst now and then, and got somewhat bored with the run

[guardianx2009]

Sounds good, but don't underestimate anothers contribution just because of kill counts. Having a break from agro can make things significantly easier in this quest, than every single archer and caster always targeting you. If you want to develop your skills I would recommend challenging yourself more. I put this out as a training exercise, the easiest way isn't necessarily the best. If it is easy the way you are doing it, I would recommend trying other strategies to develop those skill sets, doing it on a harder difficulty (here the shrine won't reset), or actually doing it solo. Of course, most beginning players won't have banishing rapiers.

Once you learn coallescent chamber, it is the second easiest vale quest.

To be fair, most beginning players, heck, I'll even venture to say most players, don't have a torc either - which I hear, is a game changer. I agree Coalescence is alot tougher without banishing weapon and RS. My very first time running it, I can barely solo kill the bats n scorps without resorting to BB. Vorpal only works until you stop rolling 20s =P.

What to you, is the #1 easiest vale quest? The Spider quest?

[Natashaelle]

To be fair, most beginning players, heck, I'll even venture to say most players, don't have a torc either - which I hear, is a game changer. I agree Coalescence is alot tougher without banishing weapon and RS. My very first time running it, I can barely solo kill the bats n scorps without resorting to BB. Vorpal only works until you stop rolling 20s =P.

It's also fairly easy with a high AC + decent DPS battle cleric, even though the Q will obviously take slightly longer to finish, and always assuming OFC that you're tough enough to handle the three "difficult" fights ...

[The_Great_Samulas]

Have to agree with that assessment. My very first Coal Chamber run on my cleric took... well, let's just say it took a VERY long time (NONE of us had ever run it before, and nobody knew you could banish everything in there). Subsequent runs have been about as easy as any very long quest can be, the hardest thing in there now is just remembering which way to go, and when.

Paralyzers also work quite well in there, if you're lacking on banishment weapons. The easiest Coal Chamber run I've been part of was an Elite run that capped my level 19 Ranger - 3 Rangers in the group with paralyzers, and a monk who was paralyzing everything he hit. The cleric didn't have a whole lot to do except keep her aura going and hitting a burst now and then, and got somewhat bored with the run

I have never tried paralyzers in there, since banishers work so well and offensive casting really is good in there. Good to know.

To be fair, most beginning players, heck, I'll even venture to say most players, don't have a torc either - which I hear, is a game changer. I agree Coalescence is alot tougher without banishing weapon and RS. My very first time running it, I can barely solo kill the bats n scorps without resorting to BB. Vorpal only works until you stop rolling 20s =P.

What to you, is the #1 easiest vale quest? The Spider quest?

If you don't have a torc, you should definately get one. I would start running the DQ raid (even if you have to run it on normal) at level 11, as you may need to run it 40 times to get it. I got my torcs long before banishing rapiers (which were highly prized back in those days). Now you can probably buy them off the auction house pretty cheap, as they aren't worth much at endgame. I only bring mine out for the one level I visit the vale in during TRing.

It's also fairly easy with a high AC + decent DPS battle cleric, even though the Q will obviously take slightly longer to finish, and always assuming OFC that you're tough enough to handle the three "difficult" fights ...

Yes, using melee in this quest can stretch your mana a bit farther in the quest. Things will go faster with offensive casting, as you mentioned. It is a good quest to practice offensive casting, not one I would recommend for really honing your melee capabilities though as you should have to be healing other targets while meleeing to best hone these skills (that is the integration of meleeing into your other cleric roles).

[NovaNZ]

Greetings all.

Never played a Cleric before but play characters in a dwarf focused guild - Killer Dwarfs.
Gulmi Nus is dwarven for "professional healer of sword"

Question - I have a spell focus feat allocated for Lvl 9. Given the concept of the heal, CC, melee trio - What would be your recommendation for spell focus feat? I thinking it would most likely be evoc, necro or enchant.

Would welcome experienced recommendations so i can get best bang-for-buck for my non-piking "cleric" character.

Tx

[The_Great_Samulas]

Greetings all.

Never played a Cleric before but play characters in a dwarf focused guild - Killer Dwarfs.
Gulmi Nus is dwarven for "professional healer of sword"

Question - I have a spell focus feat allocated for Lvl 9. Given the concept of the heal, CC, melee trio - What would be your recommendation for spell focus feat? I thinking it would most likely be evoc, necro or enchant.

Would welcome experienced recommendations so i can get best bang-for-buck for my non-piking "cleric" character.

Tx

I don't take spell focus feats on my advanced clerics. I think these are best used in offensive caster clerics that have little melee capabilities. My views on feats for advanced clerics are on page 10, where I go over my build philosophy for advanced clerics. Basically, empowered healing, quicken, and maximize are your core healing feats. This leaves you four (five on a human) feats to tailor your build with. Make sure you take heighten before you take any spell focus feats. If you stil want to take a spell focus for leveling up reasons, I would take necromancy for the most bang for your buck. It will help with slay living, which you currently have if pure, which is a very potent spell at that level. It will also help with Harm when nuking boss mobs, once you hit level 11. At level 13, it will help with destruction. At endgame, you are best using the extra feat to bolster your combat abilities in epics, but enchantment spells such as symbol of persuasion and greater command are still quite potent in epics. Blade barrier is also useful in epics, but I would not recommend a feat to up it's DC by one.

Have fun not piking!

[Mojojojojo]

Heh. I think I'm a 6.5 too! Will probably become a 7 when I can +3 lr my capped fvs or successfully build this tr build for my 28 pointer. Would appreciate comments on my tr build from people who have been playing many more clerics than me. Its an unconventional 16 cleric/3 mnk/1 rogue with an option to go 15/3/2 instead. Am I giving up too much in the healing aspect?

http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=299298

[The_Great_Samulas]

Heh. I think I'm a 6.5 too! Will probably become a 7 when I can +3 lr my capped fvs or successfully build this tr build for my 28 pointer. Would appreciate comments on my tr build from people who have been playing many more clerics than me. Its an unconventional 16 cleric/3 mnk/1 rogue with an option to go 15/3/2 instead. Am I giving up too much in the healing aspect?

http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php?t=299298

I'll take a look at the build later and add some comments to the thread (although splashing that heavy looks like a poor choice). Splashing in any type of caster diminishes their casting role in several ways in order to improve some other role. The key question when you do this is - "Is the role I am improving worth what I am giving up in terms of usefulness to a group or fun in terms of playing". Your casting aspects you give up are mana, spell penetration, spell selection, and spell power. The mana detriment is quite significant, but can be overcome with the use of consumables (mana pots and scrolls) and player skill (efficiency of casting). You give up one spell penetration for each non-caster level you take, hurting your ability to damage some mobs with certain spells. This can be addressed by employing other strategies against these mobs (preferably the ones you are improving with the splash) or using spells that do not have a spell resistance check. Spell selection is hit, but can be somewhat addressed by being mindful and swapping spells more often than a non-splashed toon. Spell power cannot be overcome. On a divine caster your mass cures will hit for a little less, although mass heal will remain unaffected (which many divines prefer to use, but I find to be less efficient than mass cures). All this said, I have one divine caster in my stable of toons that is of the heavy splash type which I use just to have fun. However, I would not call it a "A" grade toon that I bring out for difficult content.

My experience with FvS has been mostly a let-down (I have a capped one with greensteel and raid gear that has been lesser reincarnated). I don't want to debate FvS vs. Cleric here, but would like to warn you that based on my experience it is extremely difficult to make an "advanced" FvS that is good at melee, healing, and offensive casting. They seem to be better in a specialized battle cleric type role (WF epic SoS, or two-weapon fighting monk splash) or an offensive caster role (here the spell selection limits you still). Radiant servant has made this even more pronounced. I went with battle cleric type role on mine eventually after trying to make him an advanced build for quite some time. Anyways, what you will probably find it impossible to reach the full potential of a divine caster on a FvS, they aren't in the same league as far as versatility (they have other strengths).

[wax_on_wax_off]

My experience with FvS has been mostly a let-down (I have a capped one with greensteel and raid gear that has been lesser reincarnated). I don't want to debate FvS vs. Cleric here, but would like to warn you that based on my experience it is extremely difficult to make an "advanced" FvS that is good at melee, healing, and offensive casting. They seem to be better in a specialized battle cleric type role (WF epic SoS, or two-weapon fighting monk splash) or an offensive caster role (here the spell selection limits you still). Radiant servant has made this even more pronounced. I went with battle cleric type role on mine eventually after trying to make him an advanced build for quite some time. Anyways, what you will probably find it impossible to reach the full potential of a divine caster on a FvS, they aren't in the same league as far as versatility (they have other strengths).

I had a similar experience over the development of my ideas of building FvS'. At some levels the spell selection is ridiculously limited with so many good spell choices (3 level 6 spells, THREE?!?!?!). This makes it nigh impossible to build a hybrid FvS which has the same versatility as a cleric of a similar build.

On the flipside, there are some divine builds that are only possible with a FvS due to the increased spell point pool available. All of the max strength FvS melee DPS builds are almost always much better built as FvS rather than as cleric due to the difference in spell points (and the value of the capstone).

Additionally, an offensive specced FvS is likely going to be better than a Cleric due to the extra SP, extra survivability (toughness enhancements, better saves, wings, DR) and faster casting time.

Overall though, cleric is my favourite class. In ddo where versatility is king nothing can beat a well built hybrid cleric.

[The_Great_Samulas]

I had a similar experience over the development of my ideas of building FvS'. At some levels the spell selection is ridiculously limited with so many good spell choices (3 level 6 spells, THREE?!?!?!). This makes it nigh impossible to build a hybrid FvS which has the same versatility as a cleric of a similar build.

On the flipside, there are some divine builds that are only possible with a FvS due to the increased spell point pool available. All of the max strength FvS melee DPS builds are almost always much better built as FvS rather than as cleric due to the difference in spell points (and the value of the capstone).

Additionally, an offensive specced FvS is likely going to be better than a Cleric due to the extra SP, extra survivability (toughness enhancements, better saves, wings, DR) and faster casting time.

Overall though, cleric is my favourite class. In ddo where versatility is king nothing can beat a well built hybrid cleric.

I don't want to derail the thread with the old and tired FvS vs. Cleric debate, but I thought I would clarify an error. FvS's do not cast quicker. FvS is a good class for players in their first year in the game (a very good move by Turbine to encourage purchase of Turbine points to buy). After that, better saves and wings are the only real benefit I see to the class as a whole. The rest can be gotten by the resources a veteran player has (and wouldn't even bat an eye at expending) and a correctly built cleric.

[Mojojojojo]

Yup. never intended to heavily splash my fvs. Loses too much with regards to spells.

My goal of my build is not offensive casting. All sp will be for heals and buffs. Whatever cc we can do a properly spec am can do even better. And I'll be levelling this toon with an am. So I'll be able to just concentrate on dps and heals. Yes I've played a offensive caster before and love how my bb hits for full damage more than half of the time in amrath. But this build uses spells more for utility and no spell pen/dc spells like break enchantment.

I will probably lower my standards to be able to do elite traps instead of epic traps. And take intim to act as an off tank due to my ac and heal amp. Afterall, I do want to get hit. :-P just would like to hear experiences from people whether it is possible to heal properly with 15 to 16 levels of cleric and from what you said about your heavy splash build, it seems to be possible. How many cleric levels do you have may I ask? And is there anything wrong with my thinking that by being an intim,mobs hit me and not others>less healing needed and sp regeneration.

And isn't mass cures less affected by splashing? Since they only add one more point per caster level as compared to mass heal which adds 10 per level?

[wax_on_wax_off]

Yup. never intended to heavily splash my fvs. Loses too much with regards to spells.

My goal of my build is not offensive casting. All sp will be for heals and buffs. Whatever cc we can do a properly spec am can do even better. And I'll be levelling this toon with an am. So I'll be able to just concentrate on dps and heals. Yes I've played a offensive caster before and love how my bb hits for full damage more than half of the time in amrath. But this build uses spells more for utility and no spell pen/dc spells like break enchantment.

I will probably lower my standards to be able to do elite traps instead of epic traps. And take intim to act as an off tank due to my ac and heal amp. Afterall, I do want to get hit. :-P just would like to hear experiences from people whether it is possible to heal properly with 15 to 16 levels of cleric and from what you said about your heavy splash build, it seems to be possible. How many cleric levels do you have may I ask? And is there anything wrong with my thinking that by being an intim,mobs hit me and not others>less healing needed and sp regeneration.

And isn't mass cures less affected by splashing? Since they only add one more point per caster level as compared to mass heal which adds 10 per level?

Heal and Mass Heal cap out at level 15 at a base 150 HP healed. There are a variety of cutoff points for cleric:
15: lowest I'd go on a cleric and then only for a tanking/soloing build with lots of resources
16: next tier of RS Aura i think
17: level 9 spells, probably the best spot for a usual hybrid build, id suggest not going below this unless you've capped a cleric in the past
18: entering realm of more healer/casting focused clerics. Spell Penetration, possibility of tier 3 PrE, extra SP are the advantages here
19: next tier of RS Aura, same as 18
20: personally i don't see much point in staying pure on a cleric, the capstone is situational, feats are so tight that it is worthwhile to get more feats elsewhere (monk and/or fighter).

Below 18 you'll find your SP pool is quite low for raiding until you get a lot of gear. It's quite difficult to work up to over 2000 SP that is preferable for raiding. This has been my experience at least with a splashed 18 cleric with about 1700 SP. It's enough for raiding because I've learned to really manage my SP and often rely on scrolls for spot healing.

[The_Great_Samulas]

Yup. never intended to heavily splash my fvs. Loses too much with regards to spells.

My goal of my build is not offensive casting. All sp will be for heals and buffs. Whatever cc we can do a properly spec am can do even better. And I'll be levelling this toon with an am. So I'll be able to just concentrate on dps and heals. Yes I've played a offensive caster before and love how my bb hits for full damage more than half of the time in amrath. But this build uses spells more for utility and no spell pen/dc spells like break enchantment.

I will probably lower my standards to be able to do elite traps instead of epic traps. And take intim to act as an off tank due to my ac and heal amp. Afterall, I do want to get hit. :-P just would like to hear experiences from people whether it is possible to heal properly with 15 to 16 levels of cleric and from what you said about your heavy splash build, it seems to be possible. How many cleric levels do you have may I ask? And is there anything wrong with my thinking that by being an intim,mobs hit me and not others>less healing needed and sp regeneration.

And isn't mass cures less affected by splashing? Since they only add one more point per caster level as compared to mass heal which adds 10 per level?

I'll post build related responses in your build thread, but your build doesn't seem to be in line with what you want to do (or at least a different build type would be more potent). My splash build has 17 levels of cleric to qualify for 9th level spells. He is perfectly capable of healing raids, solo if necessary (although it may require a pot or two) - he has the mysterious bauble (but so do all my caster toons).

As far as intimidate -
I believe it is one of the things you learn the utility of at the advanced stages, once you learn that you can get agro and heal just fine. I personally try to get intimidate on all my divine casters and consider it more important than UMD on most builds. It is much easier to control damage to the group using intimidate and keep the tanks close to you for mass healing. I will typically end a fight using intimidate with more mana than I started the fight with. Advanced clerics are really missing out if they don't have intimidate, it is a great skill on a cleric.

Mass cures-
EDIT (based upon analysis on the following page - The mass cures keep gaining in potency, but at a low rate as you level. Mass heal gains in potency with every level and radiant servant bonus levels count too. despite what the spell description says. So splashing will significantly affect this spell. However, due to its high level of curing the basic conclusions remain the same as far as its impact on play, i.e. splashing really won't significantly impair your abilities using mass heal.

Heal and Mass Heal cap out at level 15 at a base 150 HP healed. There are a variety of cutoff points for cleric:
15: lowest I'd go on a cleric and then only for a tanking/soloing build with lots of resources
16: next tier of RS Aura i think
17: level 9 spells, probably the best spot for a usual hybrid build, id suggest not going below this unless you've capped a cleric in the past
18: entering realm of more healer/casting focused clerics. Spell Penetration, possibility of tier 3 PrE, extra SP are the advantages here
19: next tier of RS Aura, same as 18
20: personally i don't see much point in staying pure on a cleric, the capstone is situational, feats are so tight that it is worthwhile to get more feats elsewhere (monk and/or fighter).

Below 18 you'll find your SP pool is quite low for raiding until you get a lot of gear. It's quite difficult to work up to over 2000 SP that is preferable for raiding. This has been my experience at least with a splashed 18 cleric with about 1700 SP. It's enough for raiding because I've learned to really manage my SP and often rely on scrolls for spot healing.

I have found the cleric capstone to be one of the best ones in the game. This ability can save a raid, no other capstone can do that. I have seen this happen and done it myself on numerous occasions. Kiting in part 2 of ToD, lag spikes in the Dragon wiping the group, someone ranging the dragon on the way up wiping the group, Horoth tanking strategies, etc. All sorts of ways DI is useful. And it has a hidden use as it allows you to play pretty recklessly on your cleric and thus push the limits of your character (much like deathpact), which can be important in soloing epics. My main cleric will always be pure based upon the current state of the game. I have all sorts of divine casters and I still rate a pure cleric as the most potent of all divine caster types. This of course is based upon my personal preferences, so mileage will vary. That is one of the great things about clerics, the innate versatility of the class enables many powerful build types that are suited to different playstyles.

[NovaNZ]

Tx Sam for your reply re bang-for-buck spell focus.
I reviewed page 10 with your build concepts and decided to reduce STR slightly (starting now at 14) and max Wis for all its worth.

Anyway - playing a "cleric" and not nannybot has been a bipolar experience so far. Joy, amazment, anger and total bewilderment re some play(er) expectations.

EG - One PUG group dropping me as soon as they misinterpreted my suggestion for all members to bring some form of self healing (for tops ups out of combat) as "This cleric wont heal anyone - drop him".

The next PUG group - same suggestion to players prior to starting. Orsome Hork THW Axer says " I have 100 heal pots to help u out" then the ranger says "I could use a CMW wand" etc etc and we go through STK like and hurricane with min heals and me getting to soundburst, command and swing my Nus (dwarf for sword) more than needlessly healing. FANTASTIC!!

The more I play this cleric - the more I remember! Having been grunt army medic yrs ago - it is looking like the exact same principles apply. "Be tough, fair, good at your roles, and get the head around the fact that in combat - death occurs"!

Nothing I have come across playing different alts in DDO over the last 6mth seems as emotionally raw for players as what a cleric can do vs what they think a nannybot should do for them.

Tx for a fab OP

[Natashaelle]

That is one of the great things about clerics, the innate versatility of the class enables many powerful build types that are suited to different playstyles.

^^ This.

And just to rub the point in, this is something that FvS simply does not provide.

[The_Great_Samulas]

Tx Sam for your reply re bang-for-buck spell focus.
I reviewed page 10 with your build concepts and decided to reduce STR slightly (starting now at 14) and max Wis for all its worth.

Anyway - playing a "cleric" and not nannybot has been a bipolar experience so far. Joy, amazment, anger and total bewilderment re some play(er) expectations.

EG - One PUG group dropping me as soon as they misinterpreted my suggestion for all members to bring some form of self healing (for tops ups out of combat) as "This cleric wont heal anyone - drop him".

The next PUG group - same suggestion to players prior to starting. Orsome Hork THW Axer says " I have 100 heal pots to help u out" then the ranger says "I could use a CMW wand" etc etc and we go through STK like and hurricane with min heals and me getting to soundburst, command and swing my Nus (dwarf for sword) more than needlessly healing. FANTASTIC!!

The more I play this cleric - the more I remember! Having been grunt army medic yrs ago - it is looking like the exact same principles apply. "Be tough, fair, good at your roles, and get the head around the fact that in combat - death occurs"!

Nothing I have come across playing different alts in DDO over the last 6mth seems as emotionally raw for players as what a cleric can do vs what they think a nannybot should do for them.

Tx for a fab OP

You are welcome. I always like to hear stories about clerics expanding their roles. Brings a smile to my face. It can be striking the difference between skilled players and unskilled players. I would count yourself lucky that you were booted out of that first group.

I am running up a melee-focused cleric as a diversion at the moment, grouping in PUGs some of the time to see what the environment in lowbie land is like. Usually I lead groups (that way I can dictate the group dynamic without feeling like I'm taking over someone elses group), but this time I am joining some just to test my patience/skill set and perhaps impart some wisdom if I am allowed. This is mainly because I'm not power-leveling. We shall see if I keep it up, or go back to running the xp quests 6-15 times in a row as quickly as possible.

[Binn05]

Just to say that your exercise about CC at the Waterworks was helpful.
I learned how to use CC spells and use than a lot now.
Thank you.
Aiming to do the Coallescent Chamber now. ^^

[The_Great_Samulas]

Just to say that your exercise about CC at the Waterworks was helpful.
I learned how to use CC spells and use than a lot now.
Thank you.
Aiming to do the Coallescent Chamber now. ^^

You are welcome. Glad it was useful. I am thinking about coming up with a melee and healing centered exercise next. I'm thinking giant hold would be best as it's in the level range where things get interesting.

Anyways, good luck!

[Antheal]

How well does this progression concept hold up when you're doing Elite raids and Epic quests?

What kind of tactics should a Cleric be focussing on in those situations (from "end-game" onwards)?

[The_Great_Samulas]

How well does this progression concept hold up when you're doing Elite raids and Epic quests?

What kind of tactics should a Cleric be focussing on in those situations (from "end-game" onwards)?

If you are asking can you melee, offensive cast, and heal in elite raids and epic content the answer is yes. Should you practice and work on progressing in this same content, probably not a good idea. I just ran an elite VoD a couple nights ago as the only healer (we had six or so PuG spots). I was melee, offensive casting, and of course healing throughout the raid. It went very smoothly, although I should have offensive cast more as I had a lot of leftover mana at the end. Now I probably wouldn't be doing this on say ToD part III, elite, but I would on ToD part II, elite (melee, aura, mass cures, and harm/cometfall).

In general epic content, your offensive casting is reduced in effectiveness similar to an arcane (but of course they can still be quite potent if properly built). Your major offensive spells are symbol of persuasion, greater command, cometfall, and blade barrier. These can be quite useful when applied appropriately. Your major contribution with melee will be DPS on held mobs and debuffs (destructions, epic timeblade, epic unkor's cleaver). You can certainly DPS other mobs as your build and gear allows.

Epics aren't really all that hard, because unlike standard quests arcanes tend to crowd control as their major focus (at least the good ones), which actually makes the healing fairly easy (I often heal most of them with my aura). This allows for plenty of time to contribute in other ways.

Elite raids just take practice and a better strategy to do well. You'll have to gauge your ability to heal and your relative amount of downtime. If you are just standing around popping a mass here and there, you should probably be doing something else as well. You have to take into account the risks (deathpact and the cleric capstone can help here) as you don't want to die if you can help it as this could put the raid in jeopardy. Once you gain experience in this content you'll be better able to judge the risks. For example, it may seem that melee in Part I of ToD elite is a good idea, but it can be bad if you are flung across the room into some spikes and die. Now, if you have a hate tank holding agro well, you can come up behind him and swing away just fine.