The Path to Enlightenment

[The_Great_Samulas]

Adrian99 -

Thank you for the kind words. You shouldn't feel like you interrupted the thread. I found your comments articulate and accurate. They added a useful peice of information that I did not go into. Thank you for contributing.

Natashaelle -

As always, good information. I like hearing the battlecleric side of things. Interesting thing about AC is that I don't like it on my advanced clerics because of mana regeneration through the Torc and concordiant opposition. It also takes up to many slots to get into the useful range (60+). I'd rather have guards and items to boost melee damage. I rely upon damage reduction more than AC. I like to go sword and board on my advanced clerics so I can shield block as needed if I get into trouble. I am thinking of TRing my battlecleric from a clonk to a half-orc 18/2 split.

Oh, you might want to edit your last post to change useless to useful (It looks like you posted in a hurry and missed that).

ktb -

Glad it helped. You should know that efficacy items are only really useful until you can equip the corresponding potency items. They give the same bonus as potency (10% per level) but you can use them at lower level. In update 3, where they made this change they specified this but they still haven't updated the text to explain it in the items. There are still people out there that think efficacy items boost to the same degree as the specific spell type effects such as ardor and inferno. The clickie for efficacy only lasts for one minute, whereas the clickies from ardor and inferno last for a nice 3 minutes and boost your spells by 15% per level. Oh and the most fun part of seeing a person trying to zerg that can't handle it is the chastising part when they die. You should come up with something witty to say. Reminds me of Raenin who would say something like:

"I would have healed you, but it was that or another potatoe chip, and I'm sorry but Ruffles have ridges, and you don't."

[Natashaelle]

Oh, you might want to edit your last post to change useless to useful (It looks like you posted in a hurry and missed that).

erm, that was actually a bit tongue-in-cheek, deliberately -- and a reference to various repetitive comments by various people in general discussion that AC is "useless".

There's a serious aspect to it though, in that AC of about 60 makes no difference in typical Epic mêlée or the Amrath content in elite and etc (although it *does* make a difference in the lower than absolute endgame area).

AC around 60 is either a stepping stone towards functional AC, or good for soloing favour and farming Shroud, Titan, and whatnot -- but it *isn't* a good target value to aim for, as you need a LOT of grinding, use up a LOT of equipment slots, for some quite clearly insufficient return on investment.

The *actual* range I'd call "useful" would be 65-70 -- which is the sheer lowest level of anything resembling tank AC in the current endgame ; you still get hit pretty frequently, but the ratio of grazing versus full hits increases with each point of AC gained at that level, and the occasional mob will actually *miss* you completely. This level of AC improves survivability throughout the endgame, even though it's not professional tank AC.

Just for some perspective, my main is going through her second (and final TR), currently level 10, the only piece of hard to obtain AC gear I have being a chattering ring, +3 dodge AC (I'm not considering +5 mith as "hard to get", just a little pricey at AH) -- don't have combat expertise, nor stalwart defender yet (is a 12/6/2 build, though I'd far prefer 13/7/2 or higher ! ) -- sustainable self-buffed AC is in the mid-50s, and probably the fully 3rd-party buffed maximum would be 60 or so. This isn't to boast, just to point out that AC 60 would have been a target to aim for when level cap was level 10 -- but clearly not when the level cap is 20

[rest]

I'd like to think I'm 6.75. Most of the way to 7, but with a bit to go. I still leave quicken on a bit too much


Then again I might still be stuck at level 1, and just have an overinflated ego

Good thread. I've read it many times before, but never commented. Now I have.

[jriles]

Like the poster above me, I have read this thread many times and continue to do so. It has definitely helped me evolution as a cleric for sure! Thanks!

Still run into a lot of people that hate on the style but I have no problem telling them to go pound sand.

As far as AC, level 10 or so seems to be the magic level. Up to that point, most pure clerics wearing heavy armor were very well protected. But beyond that point, you start to see things go down steadily.

My guy is CLR12/FTR1 right now and only has an AC of 43 self buffed (including barkskin pots)...but with a bard in the party I am knocking on 50. This is my main, so I am low on good AC gear. He does wear adamantine FP for the DR and I am trying to get the FP that has DR5 from Tempest Spine Raid or Vault of Night.

As others have said, AC for a cleric late just usually doesn't happen b/c so much is needed and it is very gear intensive ( I have no chattering ring, no chaosguard bracers etc etc).

Toughness becomes very important, b/c as Sam said, you can fill up your red bar anytime. AC in the high 60's is probably about all you can expect and this may protect you somewhat from trash mobs.

Sam, much thanks for the 411, still striving to get to stage 7, I'm a work in progress...

[soupertc]

You should come up with something witty to say. Reminds me of Raenin who would say something like:

"I would have healed you, but it was that or another potatoe chip, and I'm sorry but Ruffles have ridges, and you don't."

it was cookies I was eating at the time.....chips ahoy if I remember right.

And I have to agree with Sam on the AC issue on clerics. My gear set up is made to get hit.....I don't like having Blur or Displacement cast on me either.

Oh and Sam Potato is not spelled with an E at the end......you and Dan Quayle hang out much?

[The_Great_Samulas]

The *actual* range I'd call "useful" would be 65-70 -- which is the sheer lowest level of anything resembling tank AC in the current endgame ; you still get hit pretty frequently, but the ratio of grazing versus full hits increases with each point of AC gained at that level, and the occasional mob will actually *miss* you completely. This level of AC improves survivability throughout the endgame, even though it's not professional tank AC.

Sounds the same as my experiences. I believe above 80 is quite good. I've tanked very well at slightly above 80 via hate with no DR on Horoth on elite. Of course, this isn't on my cleric (although I do still want red dragon scale on him!).

I'd like to think I'm 6.75. Most of the way to 7, but with a bit to go. I still leave quicken on a bit too much


Then again I might still be stuck at level 1, and just have an overinflated ego

Good thread. I've read it many times before, but never commented. Now I have.

Thank you. Glad you are getting some mileage out of it. There is that old bit of wisdom that the self-enlightened man realizes that reality is subjective and thus defines it for himself.

Like the poster above me, I have read this thread many times and continue to do so. It has definitely helped me evolution as a cleric for sure! Thanks!

Still run into a lot of people that hate on the style but I have no problem telling them to go pound sand.

As far as AC, level 10 or so seems to be the magic level. Up to that point, most pure clerics wearing heavy armor were very well protected. But beyond that point, you start to see things go down steadily.

My guy is CLR12/FTR1 right now and only has an AC of 43 self buffed (including barkskin pots)...but with a bard in the party I am knocking on 50. This is my main, so I am low on good AC gear. He does wear adamantine FP for the DR and I am trying to get the FP that has DR5 from Tempest Spine Raid or Vault of Night.

As others have said, AC for a cleric late just usually doesn't happen b/c so much is needed and it is very gear intensive ( I have no chattering ring, no chaosguard bracers etc etc).

Toughness becomes very important, b/c as Sam said, you can fill up your red bar anytime. AC in the high 60's is probably about all you can expect and this may protect you somewhat from trash mobs.

Sam, much thanks for the 411, still striving to get to stage 7, I'm a work in progress...

I'm glad you are enjoying the thread. You are welcome! I really like toughness on all toons. I just specced out of it on my WF wizard to take advantage of the arcane mage and am hoping he will be ok at 400 hp. Should be good enough for a wizard (I hope!). I can surround myself with 3 mana heightened/extended webs so that should help in epics and will have 44 DC mass holds.

I would concentrate on DR via stoneskin clickies/wands and get a hound shield for really high DR when you need it. I like both hound shields. I use the fighter one for the heal proc if I am not meleeing and just want to regain mana. You can make nice stoneskin clickies with just extra small/med shroud ingredients or pick up the seal of the earth ring out of the DQ raid (you want to do it anyways for the greenblade and torc).

it was cookies I was eating at the time.....chips ahoy if I remember right.

And I have to agree with Sam on the AC issue on clerics. My gear set up is made to get hit.....I don't like having Blur or Displacement cast on me either.

Oh and Sam Potato is not spelled with an E at the end......you and Dan Quayle hang out much?

Hey, its not my fault that's the way you say it. I was quoting you after all.

[Talltale-Storyteller]

Awesome thread!

It would be a huge help to me if you could take a look at my build in this thread:

http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php...=1#post3456723

And if there is any advice or guidance you could give as far as some of my build questions in that thread - that would be awesome.

Thanks again, and I really enjoyed reading this thread

The zerging cleric comment is going to be in my Clonks bio. lol.

[The_Great_Samulas]

Awesome thread!

It would be a huge help to me if you could take a look at my build in this thread:

http://forums.ddo.com/showthread.php...=1#post3456723

And if there is any advice or guidance you could give as far as some of my build questions in that thread - that would be awesome.

Thanks again, and I really enjoyed reading this thread

The zerging cleric comment is going to be in my Clonks bio. lol.

I'm glad you are liking it. Clerics ARE uniquely suited to zerging. I posted in your thread.

[ktb]

I’m proceeding nicely on the path with my first cleric. I would say I am at step 5. My goal is to become competent in healing, offensive casting, and melee. I am now lvl 13 and have made the following changes based on this thread:

1. Screw the casters – My original build maxed DV and used extra turning feats to keep the casters running. For the most part these got dumped. I kept one level of DV just in case.
2. Keep Buffs memorized – Aside from Resist, I am now keeping FOM, DW memorized. Along with Mass Aid, Mass Shield of Faith, Mass Prot v. Elements, Mass Spell Resist I can keep most parties going and can burn extra SP prior to shrining (only happens when running with a second healer).
3. MOB control – Greater command is working well against melee mobs. I still have not added Spell pen feats or enhancements so it often fails against drow, duegar, etc.
4. Blade Barrier – Using maximize and quicken prior to boss fights. Along with a greater potency item this knocks them down pretty fast. When pugging with zergers I have found that BB is not easy to effectively use.
5. Leaving “room” on health bars – I’ve been trying to pay attention to how healing affects party members. When I max a bar, I try to heal less the next round so as not to waste healing. I do still use radiant bursts and auras to top off at doors/chests.

My current goal is to be able to effectively melee. I am using a +6 str item (str 20 for the toon) and a holy good weapon. It is enough to clean up controlled mobs but I am certainly not shining on the kill count by any means. Any suggestions on how to improve melee effectiveness?

Specific questions:
• As of lvl 13 should I be focusing more on Spell Pen or Divine Might?
• I’m about to abandon full plate and look for anything with the right enhancements (Deathblock, Fort, etc). Any feedback on the best attributes? Is it common to carry multiple “suits” and switch?
• Does “maximize” affect auras?
• I have not bothered with null spells (Slay living, harm, etc) as I don’t have heighten or Spell pen yet. Is this a big oversight or does this effective use of these spells take away from the flexibility I’m looking for?

Thanks

[Talltale-Storyteller]

My current goal is to be able to effectively melee. I am using a +6 str item (str 20 for the toon) and a holy good weapon. It is enough to clean up controlled mobs but I am certainly not shining on the kill count by any means. Any suggestions on how to improve melee effectiveness?

I would get rid of the +6 str item, and just use divine power. When it comes to melee, at level 13 the actual melee classes are using their 2nd lvl pre's - which you have no melee DPS equivalent of. Don't feel like if you are not killing as many of them as a level 13 kensai or barb you aren't pulling your weight.

Specific questions:
• As of lvl 13 should I be focusing more on Spell Pen or Divine Might?
• I’m about to abandon full plate and look for anything with the right enhancements (Deathblock, Fort, etc). Any feedback on the best attributes? Is it common to carry multiple “suits” and switch?
• Does “maximize” affect auras?
• I have not bothered with null spells (Slay living, harm, etc) as I don’t have heighten or Spell pen yet. Is this a big oversight or does this effective use of these spells take away from the flexibility I’m looking for?

Thanks

As to point one, I would note that you have mentioned Spell Pen a number of times, so maybe you should get that. In a way your questions have answered themselves.

[The_Great_Samulas]

I’m proceeding nicely on the path with my first cleric. I would say I am at step 5. My goal is to become competent in healing, offensive casting, and melee. I am now lvl 13 and have made the following changes based on this thread:

1. Screw the casters – My original build maxed DV and used extra turning feats to keep the casters running. For the most part these got dumped. I kept one level of DV just in case.
2. Keep Buffs memorized – Aside from Resist, I am now keeping FOM, DW memorized. Along with Mass Aid, Mass Shield of Faith, Mass Prot v. Elements, Mass Spell Resist I can keep most parties going and can burn extra SP prior to shrining (only happens when running with a second healer).
3. MOB control – Greater command is working well against melee mobs. I still have not added Spell pen feats or enhancements so it often fails against drow, duegar, etc.
4. Blade Barrier – Using maximize and quicken prior to boss fights. Along with a greater potency item this knocks them down pretty fast. When pugging with zergers I have found that BB is not easy to effectively use.
5. Leaving “room” on health bars – I’ve been trying to pay attention to how healing affects party members. When I max a bar, I try to heal less the next round so as not to waste healing. I do still use radiant bursts and auras to top off at doors/chests.

My current goal is to be able to effectively melee. I am using a +6 str item (str 20 for the toon) and a holy good weapon. It is enough to clean up controlled mobs but I am certainly not shining on the kill count by any means. Any suggestions on how to improve melee effectiveness?

Specific questions:
• As of lvl 13 should I be focusing more on Spell Pen or Divine Might?
• I’m about to abandon full plate and look for anything with the right enhancements (Deathblock, Fort, etc). Any feedback on the best attributes? Is it common to carry multiple “suits” and switch?
• Does “maximize” affect auras?
• I have not bothered with null spells (Slay living, harm, etc) as I don’t have heighten or Spell pen yet. Is this a big oversight or does this effective use of these spells take away from the flexibility I’m looking for?

Thanks

I am glad things are going well. Your adaptations are appropriate. If you are zerging, to effectively use bladebarrier you must be able to leave your group go to the next encounter and kill them while the rest of the group takes the present encounter. To do this you have to be relatively sure that they can handle what is left in that encounter without dying. You can assist for awhile, through some crowd control to make sure they will be ok, then proceed on. Takes some experience to handle well.

Two general thoughts and then some specifics. First, it is good to integrate offensive casting into your healing duties or melee into your healing duties at seperate times. You will learn nuances of each that may not be apparent or it may be overwhelming trying to do all three at once. You'll have to see how it goes, but you can concentrate on one or the other for a particular quest, then switch it up the next. Getting your hotbars set ideally can really assist with this. I recommend having a casting hotbar and a melee hotbar (you can Cntrl-1 and Cntrl-2 to switch between them) that both have healing and rezzing buttons, but where you devote 3-4 spots for either spells or melee related actions.

Second, kill counts are really not an accurate representation of melee contribution, although they can be telling when largely skewed toward one member. I generally don't consider 20% swings in a particular direction as important. If anything, a large kill count can represent an over-obsession with the number on the part of the player, which typically results in less of a team mentality and weaker/slower play. As an advanced cleric you should not worry overly about these, after all, if the group wasn't there you would be soloing the dungeon just fine (you will get to this level soon, I'm sure). You are usually just grouped so the dungeon completes faster, you get more optional xp/loot, or it is a raid/epic. I would concentrate on enabling the group to accomplish quest objectives with your capabilities. Your tanks are the best at fighting, they should be leading the kill counts if played and built well.
- edit - not that I would recommend enabling others as a final strategy. You should always look for ways to assist, but a cleric is potent enough to accomplish objectives on his own. I merely advised this in the interests of promoting your learning to integrate all aspects.

As far as spell pen vs. divine might. I would go spell penetration in your circumstance. The power 5 weapons are now available to you. You should acquire these (disruption, banishing, paralyzing, vorpaling, smiting) and use them for the most part. Vorpals work very well on a cleric (use longswords), when you have a blood stone. Paralyzers work quite well in the dessert and gianthold, where you will be adventuring at your level. If you had greensteel weapons (my cleric has lightning strike and mineral2), I would say go with divine might.

As far as armor. You are getting into content where AC below 50 is not relevant. It is easiest to swap out robes and outfits, and I would wear an outfit rather than a dress. Yes, I would carry multiples with deathblock important in the wizard king (everyone should be wearing it in there - deathward is not sufficient as they will dispel then cast slay living) and the blue dragonscale is ok for turning in relics/scales (two different sets). If you want armor before dragon-touched (minimum level 16), I would get some blue dragonscale from relics.

Maximize affects burst aura, but not static.

Slay living/destruction and harm are two big spell types. You should learn to use them. Destruction is a seventh level spell available at level 13 that is great in the gianthold for taking out spell casters, which can cause significant damage to the group if left unchecked. Harm is great for boss fights. I will typically dump my mana into harm/cometfall once the boss reaches 40%. Remember to use cometfall on groups if spell resistance is an issue (I love this spell). This spell will nock them down and do nice damage, allowing your tanks to finish them off with relative ease.

-Good luck

[soupertc]

blue dragonscale is ok for turning in relics/scales (two different sets). If you want armor before dragon-touched (minimum level 16), I would get some blue dragonscale from relics.

while I agree with most things you say most of the time I disagree with your take on Blue Scale vs Dragontouched. We have had many debates about this before and I am sure we will many times again. Gear on a toon is highly personal(as we can tell by this debate we have all the time). Unlike you I don't like carry alot of stuff around and having to hot swap to get a effect....I also never have inventory issues like you.

I know I have never had any desire to switch to Dragontouch being quite happy with my set of Blue Dragonscale at cap.

[The_Great_Samulas]

while I agree with most things you say most of the time I disagree with your take on Blue Scale vs Dragontouched. We have had many debates about this before and I am sure we will many times again. Gear on a toon is highly personal(as we can tell by this debate we have all the time). Unlike you I don't like carry alot of stuff around and having to hot swap to get a effect....I also never have inventory issues like you.

I know I have never had any desire to switch to Dragontouch being quite happy with my set of Blue Dragonscale at cap.

Dragon touched let's you have +5 resistance with kickers (nice ones). I may change out my dragon touched once I get the dragon shield, for red epic armor.

The only thing better about blue dragon scale is the look. It wins hands down in that regard. I think that is the real reason you like it. I envision you running around in your armor singing - I feel PRETTY, oh so pretty, I feel pretty, and witty and gaaaaay...

[soupertc]

Dragon touched let's you have +5 resistance with kickers (nice ones). I may change out my dragon touched once I get the dragon shield, for red epic armor.

The only thing better about blue dragon scale is the look. It wins hands down in that regard. I think that is the real reason you like it. I envision you running around in your armor singing - I feel PRETTY, oh so pretty, I feel pretty, and witty and gaaaaay...

I like Blue Dragon Scale cause of the fact I don't have to carry around nearly as much as you. Remember I have a Epic Dragon Shield(even before that I simply used Nighshield for my Resistance....granted it was only +4...but that was more than enough IMO). I think DT is fine for certain builds(guard,AC....blah blah blah) but find the need for it on an end game cleric a personal issue rather than what is needed. Now the grind for a set of Blue Scales is a bit more than DT(even more so now we can see whaats on the runes) but I still disagree with you. But that's what's great bout game.....your idea of great end game is diffrent than mine but still potent options at the end.....even though I'm right.

[Binn05]

Too good not to bamp.
Thank you for all the advise. I really appreciated.

[Postumus]

- Yes, I am the zerging cleric, come with me if you want to live.

I thought that was the Terminator?

[The_Great_Samulas]

Too good not to bamp.
Thank you for all the advise. I really appreciated.

You are welcome. It is is always nice to be of help.

I thought that was the Terminator?

An advanced cleric and a terminator are very similar in how hard they are to stop. Though, I must admit, the terminator was first.

Happy New Year!

[bigolbear]

awesome thread, and i have to say i agree with your progression list.

ive had a dwarf pure cleric speced for casting but he uses a dwarf axe for a long time (uncle thorrun). recently got him transfered on the big EU transfer boat. Also had a true battle cleric with 6 lvls of fighter in there, dwarf greataxe kensai whos group role was to help the main healer by doing the cleric buffs and some spot healing.(garrel)

Since coming to the us servers ive made a clonk built for raid healing with radiant bursts -plan of sitting under a raid bosses nose using bursts aura and heals centered on self. dwarf again, 1 fighter/2 monk/17 cleric. (wrothgar)

I recently respeced him and im truly happy with the results, heres why.

Originaly i was speced for 2wf (handrwaps) and stat points were mostly an even split between str, dex con and wis.
got the oppertunity to GR recently and hes now speced with 36 wisdom, could hit 38 easily. decent str and good con but dumping dex. Im now using quarter staves or greataxes to fight and I grabbed more turning attempts through feats.

My great revelation was simply that its extremely hard to watch the red bars and keep folks healed while also having to watch your distance with enemies in combat. I swear I have more dps now in a practical sense even though the numbers would suggest other wise and my str is about the same. In tests I kill amost exactly half as much as a pure lvl 20 dwarf great axe kensai dps build and im happy with that (assuming im not killing with magic). Even more interesting is that with a slight change of spells enhancements and equipment i can make evasion work, which is a nice imporvement on my previous setup.

All in all what i have learned from this character and the advice i wish to pass on here is fighting, casting and healing all at the same time is far easier when your weilding a 2 hander simply because of the range advantage meaning you have less to focus on.

for battle clerics of various flavours:
sword and board gives you the least mele investment but you are still usefull in mele using effect based weapons.

2 handed fighting gives versatility of investment via number of feats spent and gives good returns allowing you to be effective in mele without detracting too much from casting and healing due to the range advantage.

2 weapon fighting will give the highest dps especialy considering the nature of divine might (up to +8 damage per swing) however the investment required means you need to be either more skilled and focused or you are choosing to occupy the party role of mele dps/support healer rather than main healer.

[The_Great_Samulas]

I'm glad you have enjoyed the thread.

I prefer sword and board on my main cleric, because I like to mix it up and like the instant high DR it allows (hound shields are nice). The DR is quite useful when jumping into a stack of orthons for mana regeneration. I am looking to get a dragon shield soon, which has nice things on it and only slightly lower DR. I use greensteel double shard weapons, epic unkor's cleaver, etc. I'll be using the epic sword of shadows at some point on my main cleric for some two-handed fighting.

I use two-weapon fighting on my other clerics/FvS, but I will be TRing my clonk into a half-orc battle cleric most likely. He will be using two-handed fighting.

I think a battle-cleric is best going with two-weapon fighting (khopesh or Dwarven axe) and DMII/III and healing amp to take advantage of the aura. Very potent combination. I'm still debating on going this route instead of Half-orc two-hander fighting on my clonk.

[Natashaelle]

I recently respeced him and im truly happy with the results, heres why.

Thanx for the insights, you say a lot that I agree with, and +1

My great revelation was simply that its extremely hard to watch the red bars and keep folks healed while also having to watch your distance with enemies in combat. .... All in all what i have learned from this character and the advice i wish to pass on here is fighting, casting and healing all at the same time is far easier when your weilding a 2 hander simply because of the range advantage meaning you have less to focus on.

OK, I know what you're talking about, but being high AC actually yields similar benefits, independent of fighting style

I'd also say that the wonderful thing about battle cleric is that the precise balance of mêlée versus healing that each character can have is purely determined by individual playing style, and therefore individual player enjoyment, rather than any simplistic and binary "more = better" considerations.

for battle clerics of various flavours:
sword and board gives you the least mele investment but you are still usefull in mele using effect based weapons.

S&B battle cleric really comes into its own in the high AC flavour -- but this is very difficult to achieve, because it is a very heavily gear-dependent concept.

In the endgame, a character like this needs virtually zero self-healing (just tossing off the occasional Heal), making the management of DPS versus healing far simpler and easier to deal with (you can just wade into combat, pretty much sure except against raid bosses or in epics, and some other more difficult encounters, that they will die and you won't). (but because of the gear-dependency, this is a very difficult kind of character to play, because it may take several months to develop the character up to this level of effectiveness)

2 handed fighting gives versatility of investment via number of feats spent and gives good returns allowing you to be effective in mele without detracting too much from casting and healing due to the range advantage.

I agree.

2 weapon fighting will give the highest dps especialy considering the nature of divine might (up to +8 damage per swing) however the investment required means you need to be either more skilled and focused or you are choosing to occupy the party role of mele dps/support healer rather than main healer.

I agree, and I would also suggest that this is better for battle clerics having a heavier investment in Fighter/Ranger levels than just the typical splash. The cost of the required 2WF Feats will otherwise hamper the other areas of character development and effectiveness, IMO.

Again -- great post !!