The Path to Enlightenment

[TheHolyDarkness]

Bump.

Having finally capped my 17 cleric/3 monk after one heck of a long journey, I feel as though I can better relate now. This will be a great thread to return to in the future, but hard to do so if such a font of knowledge is hidden.

~TheHolyDarkness Out~

[The_Great_Samulas]

Bump.

Having finally capped my 17 cleric/3 monk after one heck of a long journey, I feel as though I can better relate now. This will be a great thread to return to in the future, but hard to do so if such a font of knowledge is hidden.

~TheHolyDarkness Out~

Well you finally made it. I hope things are getting fun as you discover the real power of the class. I am liking the possibilities of symbol of death with blade barrier. Of course, divine punishment is quite nice.

Yes, adapting to the new forum layout is problematic. However, the thread will see a bit of visibility when I post. Of course, I haven't been posting all that often lately. I have been playing around with the new spell changes and the favored soul prestige enhancement and will have some comments on those eventually. After having finally gotten the red dragon armor, eSOS, and +4 wisdom tome I am contemplating the final version of my main cleric. I still think staying a pure cleric is the way to go for him as a human. I like the feat, improved static aura healing, and skill points. Of course half-Orc is nice with 2-handed fighting, but I think it will be hard to fit in the enhancement points to capitalize on it. The intelligence loss is an added problem because I really like intimidate on my clerics.

[guardianx2009]

I thought I would send another training exercise your way, for those still looking for ways to advance your play skills. One excellent way to test the limits of your character is in solo play. It is nice because your failures “stay in Vegas” so to speak, which is good for the learning process. This advancement tip is targeted at the other end of the scale compared to my Waterworks training tip. This is targeted to grade 5-7 clerics wishing to hone their skills who are at or near cap.

Sins of Attrition, difficulty should be normal to start and depending upon mana regeneration gear. I prefer elite, as I like more of a challenge. I do this quest on elite once in a while without using the shrines, so it should be doable without mana regeneration gear on normal (Torc is primary, concordiant opposition is helpful). This quest is also good for acquiring shroud ingredients as well (you should loot the side chests for these – there are 3 of them randomly placed – it’s the modern day Prison of the Planes). Sins of Attrition is primarily filled with devils, so mostly melee mobs. There are a few casters at the beginning and at about half-way through.

If you grab the badge of Cenodosus (sp?), then you can access the first room on the left after the table to debuff the end fight (respawning devils don’t appear, so just one on one at end fight). The rest of the side tunnels are up to you if you want to do them. The only thing you have to do is go straight down the middle to the end. Watch your dungeon alert and kill as you go, while at green-yellow alert. I would recommend practicing your melee capabilities or offensive casting in this venue occasionally, with primary killing through bladebarrier.

Buffs: cold resistance, deathpact, sonic resistance, bless, deathward, spell resistance. You should keep divine intervention up on yourself if capped and pure. You will want to keep Divine Power and Divine Favor up while in melee mode (when you are going that route).

Weapons: I recommend carrying a vorpal, disruptor (for two Cinnis-like mobs), and devil DR bypasser with you. If you want to strictly bladebarrier, then you should bring a maladroit bone breaking weapon for problem mobs.

Things to watch out for: 1)There are a considerable amount of traps in the dungeon. I handle them fine on elite, so they shouldn’t be a problem on normal. Just don’t let the devils trap you inside a trapped area. Traps in the middle of the intersections will blast you up to spikes in the ceiling. You can kite around the periphery of these intersections with two bladebarriers relatively easy (good spot for killing). There are swinging blades from the ceiling in parts that don’t have good graphics so you may not notice them hitting you until it is too late, 2) Table fight, end fight, and after second Cinnis-like mob fight are major ones in quest.

Shrines: There are three shrines. One at the beginning, one in middle and one before end fight. You can get the one before the end fight by letting the two prisoners die in the trap. If you save them, you get an extra chest after the end fight.

I think this quest is a good training ground for exploring capabilities and getting shroud ingredients at the same time. Good luck.

I know this has been a while, but I finally got around to doing Sins on Hard solo on my L20 pure. Even though I don't have a torc yet (I only had a bauble+Conc. Op item), it was a heck of a lot easier than expected. Update 9 made it even easier with several spells now being viable to use.

Here's how it went:
1. Shrines - used the first and second shrine. The first I went back to use before dropping down the hole... knowing I won't be going back for it after dropping down. When I got near the second shrine, I SP dumped a bit early, found myself having to fight a pack of devils/orthons with only enough for a holy aura.. no problem, melee'ed them down with my rapier.

2. Basic Tactics - Round up a nice crowd, throw up Holy Aura, BB mainly. Melee and kiting at the same time. Big crowds get the BB treatment, remainders get melee'd down. On normal, those cinders die easily to turn undead. On hard they save against it.

3. Notable Spells Used -Besides Aura/BB, I found these other spells helpful:
* Obscuring Mist - This spell adds 20% concealment, which is great when surrounded and melee'ing.
* Symbol of Death - Great debuffer, helps soften all them devil/orthons up.
* Divine Punishment - For the bosses.. DP, then melee, melee, melee, DP stack, repeat. Excellent damage output.

4. Helpful Buffs - Stoneskin, Fireshield cold were almost always on. Air Ele. summon helps too. Divine Power/Favor for melee. Divine Might was used sparingly because aura/burst healing were more important.

Without a torc, I'm not so sure if I want to try elite.

[Fireball241]

Looking for a monster guide on crowd control.

[SirValentine]

I've enjoyed reading this thread for a long time, and it has helped me on my way. Though, I admit, as you mention in your original post, I was insulated from the whole heal-bot thing by my years of pen-and-paper D&D. In fact, I was shocked and horrified the first time I ran in the same party with a heal-bot Cleric. (I think it was in Acid Wit, or maybe Mired in Kobolds. I was still completely free-to-play at the time.)

Although, while my playstyle might have been affected in a good way, my build was affected in a bad way. P&P and DDO are VERY different beasts, and what works in one does not work as well in the other. Yet I managed to bring my totally gimped Cleric through 20+ Shrouds, Hounds, and VoDs, and enough epics to buy a TR, all with very little decent gear. I now play an awesome offensive-caster build Cleric, with good gear, and think I do a pretty good job of it. There's always room to learn though.

How important do you think melee-related feats are do being an advanced Cleric? I had never really considered NOT melee-ing, and though my current build has no melee feats, and not that great a STR, I still wade into melee regularly. I know my DPS output is pretty pitiful, though.

As far as intimidate -
I believe it is one of the things you learn the utility of at the advanced stages, once you learn that you can get agro and heal just fine. I personally try to get intimidate on all my divine casters and consider it more important than UMD on most builds. It is much easier to control damage to the group using intimidate and keep the tanks close to you for mass healing. I will typically end a fight using intimidate with more mana than I started the fight with. Advanced clerics are really missing out if they don't have intimidate, it is a great skill on a cleric.

I missed out on reading this before planning my current build, but I'm wondering how the U9 changes to intimidate affect it's usefulness to a divine caster. Have you tested this at all?

I have found the cleric capstone to be one of the best ones in the game. This ability can save a raid, no other capstone can do that. I have seen this happen and done it myself on numerous occasions. Kiting in part 2 of ToD, lag spikes in the Dragon wiping the group, someone ranging the dragon on the way up wiping the group, Horoth tanking strategies, etc. All sorts of ways DI is useful. And it has a hidden use as it allows you to play pretty recklessly on your cleric and thus push the limits of your character (much like deathpact), which can be important in soloing epics.

Shhh! How am I supposed to convince the devs that the Cleric capstone should also include a +2 Wis with you saying it's already one of the best?

Though, really, I only partly agree with you. It's situationally useful, yes, and I do like it for soloing epic content, same as you, but I must be missing something, because I have a hard time seeing it as "best in the game". I'd drop it in an instant for +1 to my DCs, and other classes get that plus some.

[The_Great_Samulas]

I know this has been a while, but I finally got around to doing Sins on Hard solo on my L20 pure. Even though I don't have a torc yet (I only had a bauble+Conc. Op item), it was a heck of a lot easier than expected. Update 9 made it even easier with several spells now being viable to use.

Here's how it went:
1. Shrines - used the first and second shrine. The first I went back to use before dropping down the hole... knowing I won't be going back for it after dropping down. When I got near the second shrine, I SP dumped a bit early, found myself having to fight a pack of devils/orthons with only enough for a holy aura.. no problem, melee'ed them down with my rapier.

2. Basic Tactics - Round up a nice crowd, throw up Holy Aura, BB mainly. Melee and kiting at the same time. Big crowds get the BB treatment, remainders get melee'd down. On normal, those cinders die easily to turn undead. On hard they save against it.

3. Notable Spells Used -Besides Aura/BB, I found these other spells helpful:
* Obscuring Mist - This spell adds 20% concealment, which is great when surrounded and melee'ing.
* Symbol of Death - Great debuffer, helps soften all them devil/orthons up.
* Divine Punishment - For the bosses.. DP, then melee, melee, melee, DP stack, repeat. Excellent damage output.

4. Helpful Buffs - Stoneskin, Fireshield cold were almost always on. Air Ele. summon helps too. Divine Power/Favor for melee. Divine Might was used sparingly because aura/burst healing were more important.

Without a torc, I'm not so sure if I want to try elite.

I like how you vary your offense based on need from casting to melee. That is one of the marks of an advanced cleric. Your advice sounds fine. I haven't done Sins in solo mode since U9. I don't think I would want to solo it on anything other than elite, as it wouldn't be challenging enough to be fun (I do have the torc and concordiant opposition). I am currently reincarnating my main divine, so I am doing lowbie stuff.

[The_Great_Samulas]

Looking for a monster guide on crowd control.

I won't be doing a comprehensive guide of this nature, and am not aware of one out there. Suffice it to say, you use spells of the appropriate save type against the weakest saves a particular monster has - will save spells for rogue and melee types, fort save spells for caster types, and reflex saves for most stuff (cleric types it is good for).

[The_Great_Samulas]

I've enjoyed reading this thread for a long time, and it has helped me on my way. Though, I admit, as you mention in your original post, I was insulated from the whole heal-bot thing by my years of pen-and-paper D&D. In fact, I was shocked and horrified the first time I ran in the same party with a heal-bot Cleric. (I think it was in Acid Wit, or maybe Mired in Kobolds. I was still completely free-to-play at the time.)

Although, while my playstyle might have been affected in a good way, my build was affected in a bad way. P&P and DDO are VERY different beasts, and what works in one does not work as well in the other. Yet I managed to bring my totally gimped Cleric through 20+ Shrouds, Hounds, and VoDs, and enough epics to buy a TR, all with very little decent gear. I now play an awesome offensive-caster build Cleric, with good gear, and think I do a pretty good job of it. There's always room to learn though.

How important do you think melee-related feats are do being an advanced Cleric? I had never really considered NOT melee-ing, and though my current build has no melee feats, and not that great a STR, I still wade into melee regularly. I know my DPS output is pretty pitiful, though.



I missed out on reading this before planning my current build, but I'm wondering how the U9 changes to intimidate affect it's usefulness to a divine caster. Have you tested this at all?



Shhh! How am I supposed to convince the devs that the Cleric capstone should also include a +2 Wis with you saying it's already one of the best?

Though, really, I only partly agree with you. It's situationally useful, yes, and I do like it for soloing epic content, same as you, but I must be missing something, because I have a hard time seeing it as "best in the game". I'd drop it in an instant for +1 to my DCs, and other classes get that plus some.

I am glad you have found the post helpful.

As far as melee related feats - they are generally for increasing DPS on a cleric (power attack and improved critical being the most useful). You need to get gear just like any other melee if you want to be effective. You can still use debuffing weapons to contribute to a fight (destruction, cursespewing, limbchopper, etc.) and not be affected by DPS loss provided you can hit alright. So in the end melee feats make your DPS more relavent, but if you are low strength anyways, they might not be in the cards for you (for an advanced cleric it is a well spent feat). For me, I'll be going with improved critical, half-orc and a eSOS in addition to other weapons.

As far as intimidate - intimidate does not lock things in anymore, but it will give you permanent hate and a threat bonus, which is useful on mobs the tanks are not engaged with. Still is a great way to get mana.

As far as the capstone -it lets you do things no other ability in the game lets you do. I rank that pretty high. You can build strategies around this ability that you wouldn't be able to do otherwise - raid strategies. The +1 to DCs of the wizard capstone is very nice, but it still just enhances your present abilities, it doesn't give you new ones. On my cleric I am into versatility. New abilities I rank very highly. For example, if I am engaged with a mob where +1 DC will matter in the preferred spell I will throw on that mob, I won't bother. I will instead pull out a weapon and melee it. I don't bring out a bigger hammer to knock a square peg threw a round hole, I find a round peg. I would rather have different shaped pegs to deal with different challenges, rather than a bigger hammer that I can only use with one shape of peg (the analogy is falling apart a little, ).

The real secret with this capstone is figuring out when it can be useful, because unlike most of the others it isn't useful unless you find a use for it, but when it is it changes things dramatically: using 400 hp tanks as main tanks for Horoth in ToD, activating the runes on the way to VoD, swimming around in Abbot, soloing difficult content, saving wiped raids (ever had someone new throw something at the dragon on the way up?), and playing on the edge continuously on your cleric.

[Munze_Konza]

Fantastic post. I was very frustrated when playing my cleric and the expectations some groups had of me. After reading this, I am ready to try it again and see what I can do to progress beyond 'hanging back and healing'.

Thank you.

[The_Great_Samulas]

Fantastic post. I was very frustrated when playing my cleric and the expectations some groups had of me. After reading this, I am ready to try it again and see what I can do to progress beyond 'hanging back and healing'.

Thank you.

You are welcome. Just remember vets can solo most of the low level content even before they made it scale based upon party content. Players like to blame the healer for playing badly, it doesn't change the fact that they suck. Next time tell them, "I am sorry, I couldn't heal you because I spit beer all over the monitor laughing at the way you play. I do want to thank you though. Man that was funny."

Once you get good, you'll teach them a lesson by clearing the room after they wipe. The cleric is truly an awesome class, the only thing holding it back is knowledge and ability at the keyboard. You will find the class more and more fun as you expand the way you play. Good luck.

[PNellesen]

3. Notable Spells Used -Besides Aura/BB, I found these other spells helpful:

* Divine Punishment - For the bosses.. DP, then melee, melee, melee, DP stack, repeat. Excellent damage output.

4. Helpful Buffs - Stoneskin, Fireshield cold were almost always on. Air Ele. summon helps too. Divine Power/Favor for melee. Divine Might was used sparingly because aura/burst healing were more important.

Divine Punishment is... perfect just the way it is, Devs. Please do NOT touch it. At all. EVER.

I've been using a lot of the knowledge from this thread in playing the guy in my sig (my 2nd cleric), and it has been quite a lot of fun. Did an at-level Sleeping Dust last night with a guildie Wizard/Rogue (both of us level 16, neither a TR), and it was an eye-opener.

You really don't want to bring a hireling in that quest, so I had to cover healing, melee, offensive spell casting, AND making sure the spiders didn't die (so no Blade Barriers, Cometfalls, two-handed weapons, etc. once we read the journal) It was great to finally get a taste of what being a REAL Cleric is all about - soloing, you only have to worry about yourself, but with one other person and no hirelings/summons along, you have to REALLY pay attention to what's going on and pick the right tool at the right time to succeed.

We decided to use pretty much the same strategy as mentioned above for the end boss - the Wiz kept the spiders occupied, and I focused DP on the boss. I didn't even have to melee him, I simply kept stacked DP on him and kited him around as best I could behind the portal. I'm finding that DP has quickly become my primary spell for boss fights in ANY quest/raid. Harry, Stormreaver, Sulo, Malicia, Lailat... it works on all of them.

[Hyperian]

I've thoroughly enjoyed reading this thread from beginning to end. I am currently raising my own cleric as my pet char when I'm not playing my rogue with my wife. I have 32 point buy and vet status, so it was at level 4, but when I first made him, I joined a pick up group to hit Korthos and proceeded to stomp through the island beginning to end on elite, without pause. I think I bothered the group leader because I pushed that edge. Hit myself with bears and owl to add to melee and spells, blessed the group and just went for it. It was rare when command/sound burst didn't hit and everyone loved just eating through the mobs. The group leader "had to go" and dropped group. I saw him between quests with an LFM up for korthos on elite and couldn't help but laugh.

By the end of the night, the people in the group were calling me "The Boss" because I told them right from the start, "If you get out of sight, I can't heal you. If I can't heal you and you die, I don't care." We moved as a group, played off the strength each brought to the group and just made me love the experience.

MyDDO link for the character: http://my.ddo.com/character/sarlona/aaranth/

I am aiming for an offensive caster. I want to support/deal death/heal in pretty close to that order. That said, I cast from within the dust cloud, because I figure any DPS > 0 is good. That means even if I'm only hitting for 5, and the barb hits for 50, that's still 55 done to the mob.

I'm writing because I was curious if you have any advise going forward with the character? Currently he has toughness/mental toughness. I plan at the level of BB changing both to spell pen. Although as was pointed out by a guildie "Can never have too much HPs". My highest level character is currently... 8 (Piercesteel if you want to look him up in myddo too ^.^; ) so I don't have epic lootz waiting for me.. nor have I done much beyond lvl 6 content. I enjoyed the power my character had in quests, as well as the respect people had because I looked like I knew what I was doing (lol).

So.. tl;dr, good thread, any advice for a ranged rogue turning cleric?

[The_Great_Samulas]

Divine Punishment is... perfect just the way it is, Devs. Please do NOT touch it. At all. EVER.

I've been using a lot of the knowledge from this thread in playing the guy in my sig (my 2nd cleric), and it has been quite a lot of fun. Did an at-level Sleeping Dust last night with a guildie Wizard/Rogue (both of us level 16, neither a TR), and it was an eye-opener.

You really don't want to bring a hireling in that quest, so I had to cover healing, melee, offensive spell casting, AND making sure the spiders didn't die (so no Blade Barriers, Cometfalls, two-handed weapons, etc. once we read the journal) It was great to finally get a taste of what being a REAL Cleric is all about - soloing, you only have to worry about yourself, but with one other person and no hirelings/summons along, you have to REALLY pay attention to what's going on and pick the right tool at the right time to succeed.

We decided to use pretty much the same strategy as mentioned above for the end boss - the Wiz kept the spiders occupied, and I focused DP on the boss. I didn't even have to melee him, I simply kept stacked DP on him and kited him around as best I could behind the portal. I'm finding that DP has quickly become my primary spell for boss fights in ANY quest/raid. Harry, Stormreaver, Sulo, Malicia, Lailat... it works on all of them.

I'm glad the thread has been helpful. I'm all about passing on the knowledge so more people realize the potency of clerics and consequently have more fun playing them.

Lot's of people are raving about divine punishment. I haven't used it extensively yet myself, as I've been in TR land. Doing arcane past lives for my final main cleric's build.

I've thoroughly enjoyed reading this thread from beginning to end. I am currently raising my own cleric as my pet char when I'm not playing my rogue with my wife. I have 32 point buy and vet status, so it was at level 4, but when I first made him, I joined a pick up group to hit Korthos and proceeded to stomp through the island beginning to end on elite, without pause. I think I bothered the group leader because I pushed that edge. Hit myself with bears and owl to add to melee and spells, blessed the group and just went for it. It was rare when command/sound burst didn't hit and everyone loved just eating through the mobs. The group leader "had to go" and dropped group. I saw him between quests with an LFM up for korthos on elite and couldn't help but laugh.

By the end of the night, the people in the group were calling me "The Boss" because I told them right from the start, "If you get out of sight, I can't heal you. If I can't heal you and you die, I don't care." We moved as a group, played off the strength each brought to the group and just made me love the experience.

MyDDO link for the character: http://my.ddo.com/character/sarlona/aaranth/

I am aiming for an offensive caster. I want to support/deal death/heal in pretty close to that order. That said, I cast from within the dust cloud, because I figure any DPS > 0 is good. That means even if I'm only hitting for 5, and the barb hits for 50, that's still 55 done to the mob.

I'm writing because I was curious if you have any advise going forward with the character? Currently he has toughness/mental toughness. I plan at the level of BB changing both to spell pen. Although as was pointed out by a guildie "Can never have too much HPs". My highest level character is currently... 8 (Piercesteel if you want to look him up in myddo too ^.^; ) so I don't have epic lootz waiting for me.. nor have I done much beyond lvl 6 content. I enjoyed the power my character had in quests, as well as the respect people had because I looked like I knew what I was doing (lol).

So.. tl;dr, good thread, any advice for a ranged rogue turning cleric?

I'm happy to see you are getting involved in the forums. Quite a few have made this thread their first posting. Makes me feel warm and fuzzy.

I am happy you have found the thread useful. I am very happy to hear that you are straightening out all those new Korthos recruits before we see them later. Its not unusual for melee types to be disenchanted by well-played divines. They are more potent and resilient than melees, particularly ungeared. This is probably what happened in your experience with that group leader. Sounds like your had a good time .

As far as advice on your toon. When you have BB you should have maximize and quicken for high solo and making the rest of the group pike capability. Extend is good to swap out at this level for quicken if you haven't picked it up yet. You won't really need spell pen until you hit the vale. Remember there is no spell penetration check for BB or cometfall. You mainly need it for destruction on casters, and these don't happen with frequency until the vale. Keep toughness and never give it up. Dump mental toughness once you are skilled enough that you don't need the boost to mana. If you don't have good DPS, you can still effectively contribute to combat through debuffs (cursespewing, enfeebling, maladroit, etc.) and power five weapons (banishers, vorpals, smiters, paralyzers, and disruptors). This would be more productive than DPS in most instances. I looked at your stat distribution. It looks fine other than you didn't allocate 6 build points to constitution, which is highly desired.

I have overall build advice in this thread a few pages back.

[Hyperian]

Played my cleric again last night. I'm now hitting harbor on elite with him and loving it. People don't die unless it's bad saves. I know my build isn't exact. I've read the forums a lot and seen arguments for both ways on the con. I do have extend now, I'm figuring by level 9 that's a good time to switch it out as most buffs will last long enough anyways for quicken. Taking empowered healing at 6 for the PRE and I will definitely hold off til 12 or so before I worry about spell pen. Anyways, thanks again for the advice, it is greatly appreciated. This thread was the inspiration for my cleric afterall.

[ka0t1c1sm]

This thread was the inspiration for my cleric afterall.

You mean it wasn't my gimp Cleric?

[Phidius]

...I'm happy to see you are getting involved in the forums. Quite a few have made this thread their first posting. Makes me feel warm and fuzzy.
...

Gross!!! Did you just pee in your dark suit!?!?!

[The_Great_Samulas]

Played my cleric again last night. I'm now hitting harbor on elite with him and loving it. People don't die unless it's bad saves. I know my build isn't exact. I've read the forums a lot and seen arguments for both ways on the con. I do have extend now, I'm figuring by level 9 that's a good time to switch it out as most buffs will last long enough anyways for quicken. Taking empowered healing at 6 for the PRE and I will definitely hold off til 12 or so before I worry about spell pen. Anyways, thanks again for the advice, it is greatly appreciated. This thread was the inspiration for my cleric afterall.

I am glad things are going well. I woudn't worry about being exact on a build. Builds are more a set of guidelines than rules.

Gross!!! Did you just pee in your dark suit!?!?!

I'm taking the 5th on that.

[Oracle_Gil]

For OP thread:-

Very nice analysis Its so close to true.

(/joking on)

Though there is that 'evil side of cleric' type of cleric too which we face... When we sometimes want all the aggro to follow us and think others should stand back and praise our awesomeness. We get angry at our stolen aggro... "Barbarian! YOU dare steal MY aggro. What are you gonna do now? Can you even heal yourself? Hmmph... first taking MY aggro then taking MY SP for heals. What a burden."
It is so difficult to fight it back

(/joking off)

[The_Great_Samulas]

For OP thread:-

Very nice analysis Its so close to true.

(/joking on)

Though there is that 'evil side of cleric' type of cleric too which we face... When we sometimes want all the aggro to follow us and think others should stand back and praise our awesomeness. We get angry at our stolen aggro... "Barbarian! YOU dare steal MY aggro. What are you gonna do now? Can you even heal yourself? Hmmph... first taking MY aggro then taking MY SP for heals. What a burden."
It is so difficult to fight it back

(/joking off)

Thank you. I'm really into mana conservation. True resurrection is less mana than 3 heal spells. You can't argue with the numbers. Just saying...

[PNellesen]

Thank you. I'm really into mana conservation. True resurrection is less mana than 3 heal spells. You can't argue with the numbers. Just saying...

True Resurrection? Only at the end of the quest, and then only if they've cleaned out my backpack, sorted everything nicely, and dropped a few plat in my change purse