Eliminate Raid Prerequisites for DQ and VON

[Mhykke]

Can we make it so that I zone into VoN6 right away and the dragon's dead already, so all I have to do is loot the chest?


Raids like the titan are great. A preraid where everyone's in, complete it, go right into the boss fight. VoN5 should be the same way, as should DQ.

I used to love VoN 1-4 by themselves. Now, even doing all 4 under 30 min., I hate being in there. One of the least fun things to do in the game: zone in, split up, run through, massacre everything, complete, go to next one. Disgusting. Remove this requirement.

[Beherit_Baphomar]

Trying not to get too fancy here, but yeah, get rid of the prereq's (VON's 1-4 and the 3 DQ prereqs), make ATDQ1 a 12 man preraid. Keep VON5 part of the raid.

Titanesque changes I will /sign for.

[Borrigain]

Well, since no one wants to put in the time to reap the rewards, my suggestion is any raid I have beaten will have a piece of raid loot show up in my mailbox every 3 days. After all, I've beaten it, I'll beat it again, might as well save me the time and just give me my reward.

/sheesh.

Now, on a more serious note, I actually do agree with tek on the trying to get the guildies all together at once and flagged. So, to prevent unbridled loot wh***** of the raids, but at the same time make them more accessible, I propose:

Do away with chain flagging, but make all raids like von5/6 and titan forge/core.

The pre-raid rolls into the raid.

Things that stay the same: Initial flagging of von1-4; intial flagging of Raiyum, Chains, and Blood; initial flagging of Hips/Mines/Ghola; initial relic acquistion and blooding of dragons for Reaver; initial flagging for sigil and completing the 4 for Abbott.

Changes to be made: DQ and Reaver and Abbott pre-raids would have to have "raid group" option coded. AtDQ rolls into Zawabi's revenge, Tor rolls into Reaver (sans dragons, those are for intial flag), Black Mausoleum rolls into Chamber (sans the 4, those are for intital flag)

To enter raid, you'd click on something like an altar or a teleporter, or talk to dragon staring down at you. Don't foresee huge coding time to do this.

Yes, it would make those a little easier for the pre-raids with up to 12 involved. Big deal, at least it's not as time consuming as flagging the whole chain. I'd love to be able to get 12 guildies together and flag the whole Abbott pre-req's one after another. Oh, and wouldn't it be nice to have 12 men going after undead beholder in Abbott pre-raid? I think you feel me.

And since people are posting that the pre-raids are "fun", there shouldn't be any real opposition to this. If you just want to be able to hit the raid, then yes, it IS just about the loot. And no, I don't think Turbine will accomodate you on this. Other suggestions might just catch their ear.

Proud member of " the no griping without proposed solutions" club,
Borr.

[Beherit_Baphomar]

I used to love VoN 1-4 by themselves. Now, even doing all 4 under 30 min., I hate being in there. One of the least fun things to do in the game: zone in, split up, run through, massacre everything, complete, go to next one. Disgusting. Remove this requirement.

Thats another thing, these raids, of which we have very few, are fun to do with 12 people. Our guild has guys with 60 completions of Velah and we have guys that have never even saw her. Those with 60 will be more than happy to run Velah again and again if its with guildies, to have an all guild Dragon beatdown is just fun.

The prereqs are not.

They aint a challenge, its a slaughter...even on elite. We're level 14's doing level what, 8 quests?...Not fun.

[Grimmlock]

Thats what we are trying to get a DEV response back on. removal of the flagging quests not the pre-raids. It would be a shock if someone would actually respond to the numerous threads about this

[Ciaran]

Trying not to get too fancy here, but yeah, get rid of the prereq's (VON's 1-4 and the 3 DQ prereqs), make ATDQ1 a 12 man preraid. Keep VON5 part of the raid.

Titanesque changes I will /sign for.

I agree with removing the need to re-run VON 1-4 and just needing to run VON 5, but making ATDQ1 a 12 man pre-raid? They'd have to add a lot more to that quest as it's pretty easy.

[Oreg]

Borr, How is that different than like 6-15 of the previous posts/suggestions that are IDENTICAL ?

[Drider]

Ideally, I'd like to see AtDQ get a few upgrades and be converted to a Raid instance and then I wouldn't mind running it each time.

Having 6-person prereqs you have to do each time you want to do a 12-person raid is problematic.

Great idea. It was always a pain to get a group together to find out that like 7 people needed adq, so we had to run it twice or at least 2 at the same time.

[Beherit_Baphomar]

Thats what we are trying to get a DEV response back on. removal of the flagging quests not the pre-raids. It would be a shock if someone would actually respond to the numerous threads about this

There was multiple threads on BAB15 being slower which never got a response, next thing we know its in the WDA for MOD6...not sure why they cant comment on these things in our threads.

But they do see these posts. Even if no comment is made.

[bobbryan2]

Well, since no one wants to put in the time to reap the rewards, my suggestion is any raid I have beaten will have a piece of raid loot show up in my mailbox every 3 days. After all, I've beaten it, I'll beat it again, might as well save me the time and just give me my reward.

/sheesh.

Now, on a more serious note, I actually do agree with tek on the trying to get the guildies all together at once and flagged. So, to prevent unbridled loot wh***** of the raids, but at the same time make them more accessible, I propose:

Do away with chain flagging, but make all raids like von5/6 and titan forge/core.

The pre-raid rolls into the raid.

Things that stay the same: Initial flagging of von1-4; intial flagging of Raiyum, Chains, and Blood; initial flagging of Hips/Mines/Ghola; initial relic acquistion and blooding of dragons for Reaver; initial flagging for sigil and completing the 4 for Abbott.

Changes to be made: DQ and Reaver and Abbott pre-raids would have to have "raid group" option coded. AtDQ rolls into Zawabi's revenge, Tor rolls into Reaver (sans dragons, those are for intial flag), Black Mausoleum rolls into Chamber (sans the 4, those are for intital flag)

To enter raid, you'd click on something like an altar or a teleporter, or talk to dragon staring down at you. Don't foresee huge coding time to do this.

Yes, it would make those a little easier for the pre-raids with up to 12 involved. Big deal, at least it's not as time consuming as flagging the whole chain. I'd love to be able to get 12 guildies together and flag the whole Abbott pre-req's one after another. Oh, and wouldn't it be nice to have 12 men going after undead beholder in Abbott pre-raid? I think you feel me.

And since people are posting that the pre-raids are "fun", there shouldn't be any real opposition to this. If you just want to be able to hit the raid, then yes, it IS just about the loot. And no, I don't think Turbine will accomodate you on this. Other suggestions might just catch their ear.

Proud member of " the no griping without proposed solutions" club,
Borr.

Ok... this is what I would call a great idea for design if they were going to go write up 5 different raids. But they're not building these raids from scratch.

Would you rather a brand new raid or two, or would you rather them spend an equivalent amount of time making sweeping changes to various preraids, and rebuilding those quests from the ground up?

I think it'd be far easier to simply change the reflagging so that once you finish Von 5, it resets to the point that you just talked to Marek after Von 4. Zawabi would reset either to the point right before or right after AtDQ. I can see arguments either way. But I personally would rather it be right after AtDQ, due to it simply being a 6 man prereq in its own right.

That's all the real coding that needs to happen. A couple pointers moving to a different point in the advancement chain. Everything else, while wonderful from a 'what if' stance... would require a huge commitment to overhauling the old raids.

Not to mention... I like a little of a mixture of the short raid/long raid. Sometimes I just want to go blast the DQ or Stormreaver. I may only be on for 45 minutes or so, and want to get a raid in. Some nights I want to just sit down and wade through the Forge.

Variety isn't a bad thing, and that would be the other reason I would be against making them all work exactly the same. One long 12 man quest followed by one shorter 12 man quest with a boss. I find DQ to be a more challenging raid than the Stormreaver at any rate... and it's not like it even drops +3 tomes, so I doubt it would become more run than it at any rate.

Just my take on the whole 'sweeping changes' idea. Too much trouble, and I'm not even sure it would be a good goal.

[Knightrose]

I will never get tired of seeing this post/request until something is done about it.

I hate.

Hate.

Doing pre-reqs over and over and over and over and over and over...

[Dane_McArdy]

No, I said that raid loot is a big motivator. I also said that it wasn't the only motivator. You ignored the part you didn't want to hear and went right into putting words in my mouth.

I'm sorry, I didn't put any words in your mouth, I just summed up what you were saying. The loot is the main motivator. Because even you said, if it weren't for the loot would many people bother running these? probably not. Your words, not mine.

[Jerevon]

I dont agree, keep them. It adds flavor to the game and for those raids..... Yes, it is a pain, but adds flavor.

Adds flavor...yeah, the flavor of dog ****. Besides that, is turbine going to do this anyway and remove the VoN 1-4 requirement for the next mod coming out?

[Borrigain]

Borr, How is that different than like 6-15 of the previous posts/suggestions that are IDENTICAL ?

I guess I just can't do work and type fast enough is all.

I noticed that after I'd posted my hour long diatribe........Doh!

Borr.

[bobbryan2]

I'm sorry, I didn't put any words in your mouth, I just summed up what you were saying. The loot is the main motivator. Because even you said, if it weren't for the loot would many people bother running these? probably not. Your words, not mine.

Summing up someone's point and making it into a point that they didn't say is the very definition of putting words into someone's mouth. Once again, you completely ignored the point I made about people enjoying grouping with 12 people and experiencing the raid feel of certain quests.

Do you do it on purpose? Or do you honestly believe that everyone in the thread is just trying to find a way to get easier loot?

[artvan_delet]

Eliminating flagging would also help casual players, who dont have the time to run prereqs over and over. I'd vote for a change. But if you change the DQ 6-man, then you better beef up the 6 princes.

[bobbryan2]

Eliminating flagging would also help casual players, who dont have the time to run prereqs over and over. I'd vote for a change. But if you change the DQ 6-man, then you better beef up the 6 princes.

You don't even have to fight them if you have D Door.

[Raithe]

They're the entire 'reason' that people grind through the other ones.

No, no they aren't. Except for Tempest's Spine, I abhor each and every raid I've been in (which discounts the Abbot).

Reasons:

1) It is virtually impossible to get 12 guild members (let alone PUG members) to coordinate well. Someone is always AFK. Someone always falls behind and needs help to get back. Someone drops connection. Etc., etc.

2) Game mechanics. In an attempt to make raids "challenging" (which they aren't), they've made things absolutely ridiculous. It's not about finding an appropriate course of action for them, it's about finding the appropriate course of action. I'd rather read a Choose-Your-Own-Adventure book, they have more variety.

3) Loot. Most people think it's a good thing, I think it's mostly bad. I've had more negative experiences with the raid loot system than I have had positive ones. People rolling and winning things that will serve them not at all, when multiple people in the party would benefit immensely from the item. People placing dimension doors around chests with no way to get back in. In the old system, party leaders taking the glyphs and the raid loot without even asking about it. The bad experiences go on and on.

The raids we have now (excluding the Abbot raid, which I don't know that much about) are horrible, and the grouping for them is worse, not better. Everyone who claims otherwise is completely transparent. We all know better.

[bobbryan2]

No, no they aren't. Except for Tempest's Spine, I abhor each and every raid I've been in (which discounts the Abbot).

So uh... you run the Vons twice a week or so per character?

If you do, then you are the exception to the rule. If not... and you don't run them very often (almost ever) on your capped characters, then you made my point for me which was, people only run Von 1-4 for flagging purposes. They don't actually run 1-4 day in and day out because they love Von 1-4.

[Fetchi]

I'd like to see the ritual that makes a greatsword with the DPS of a SoS.

I'd like to see a bow with the dps of the SoS.