Eliminate Raid Prerequisites for DQ and VON

[Yaga_Nub]

However, I just think you are all putting a lot of energy in to trying to get something changed that isn't likely going to happen.

Wow, what would the US be like if someone had told Dr. King that and he believed it?

Is this that important? Not by a longshot.

But the point is that the only way to affect a change is to put effort into it. If tekn0 has, god I really hate saying this, actually unified people on a topic then ANYTHING is possible.

[adamkatt]

For whatever reason, Turbine doesn't seem to like it when quests become loot runs, do they? That is my point. Changes like these would make them more about loot runs. And Turbine has shown a strong dislike of turning their game into just that.

How can you call something that can only be run every 2 days 18 hrs a loot run?


As for the topic, i agree. Get rid of grinding prereqs already.

[Aspenor]

I will repeat, the devs are not against loot runs. Examples: PoP, Wizard King, Ghosts of Perdition.

The devs are against exploiting.

[Dane_McArdy]

Wow, what would the US be like if someone had told Dr. King that and he believed it?

Is this that important? Not by a longshot.

But the point is that the only way to affect a change is to put effort into it. If tekn0 has, god I really hate saying this, actually unified people on a topic then ANYTHING is possible.

You are actually trying to bring MLK into this?

That's pretty low, you are trying to put a video game on the same level as social injustice. The change MLK was wanting had to do with justice, not fulling some persons entertainment needs. It shows a huge level of disrespect for what he did for justice, by relating it to an entertainment video game. And then you wonder why I have some of the views I do about what people really are saying and what they really mean.

And then to try and write off. You'd make a great lawyer, first you say it, then dismiss it because you know that all you have to do is say it, and then it's in peoples heads.

[Dane_McArdy]

I will repeat, the devs are not against loot runs. Examples: PoP, Wizard King, Ghosts of Perdition.

The devs are against exploiting.

The dev's are against exploiting of any kind.

But they are also against loot runs where you can legitmatly bypass the objective of the quest to just get the loot. Giant caves, Whisperdoom and the changes to PoP. Notice how they make the changes so you have to do the quest to get the chests.

The reasons people are posting only serve the indivual, not the game. Like most reasons, it comes out the person seeing it as annoying to them, not a community effecting issue. But they present it as a community effecting issue.

You are bored running those quests doesn't equal there is no need for it to be set up the way it is.

Which is why I think that Turbine would be less inclined to see it as game effecting issue, and more of a personal issue.

[bobbryan2]

You are actually trying to bring MLK into this?

That's pretty low, you are trying to put a video game on the same level as social injustice. The change MLK was wanting had to do with justice, not fulling some persons entertainment needs. It shows a huge level of disrespect for what he did for justice, by relating it to an entertainment video game. And then you wonder why I have some of the views I do about what people really are saying and what they really mean.

And then to try and write off. You'd make a great lawyer, first you say it, then dismiss it because you know that all you have to do is say it, and then it's in peoples heads.

He never said a video game and social injustice were on the same level.....

[Aspenor]

But they are also against loot runs where you can legitmatly bypass the objective of the quest to just get the loot. Giant caves, Whisperdoom and the changes to PoP. Notice how they make the changes so you have to do the quest to get the chests.

And in this case we aren't bypassing any quest objectives "just to get loot." You'd still have to run adq1, von 5, and their associated boss fights. It's not like we'd just zone in for the chest.

Frankly I have had enough gnolls blood smeared on my character's forehead that it should be permanently staining my hair. I've also gained the support of the Laughing Knives so many times that I'm beginning to think they suffer from amnesia.

[bobbryan2]

The dev's are against exploiting of any kind.

But they are also against loot runs where you can legitmatly bypass the objective of the quest to just get the loot. Giant caves, Whisperdoom and the changes to PoP. Notice how they make the changes so you have to do the quest to get the chests.

We already talked about those three quests, and you're way off base. Giant Caves and PotP don't even fit your point. Whisperdoom kinda does... but it was more of a fatal design flaw that they quickly (over)corrected.

[Qzipoun]

/signed
/signed
and /signed again

The only thing keeping me from running DQ and Von as much as I run the Titan and Reaver is the tedious prep. I'm just sick of it and don't bother anymore.


PS: Dane you sure you don't agree with the issue and just can't get yourself to admit you agree with tekn0?

[bobbryan2]

The reasons people are posting only serve the indivual, not the game. Like most reasons, it comes out the person seeing it as annoying to them, not a community effecting issue. But they present it as a community effecting issue.

And what is this game other than a collection of individuals? Are you saying that making the game better for an individual cannot possibly also be good for the game? Von 1-4 isn't annoying to a single person. They aren't annoying to a minority. They are annoying to the game as a whole.

When I post that a bug keeps affecting me.. aren't I just posting for me individually? But that bug affects everyone around me too...

So... once again.. I think you're completely wrong.

[Dane_McArdy]

We already talked about those three quests, and you're way off base. Giant Caves and PotP don't even fit your point. Whisperdoom kinda does... but it was more of a fatal design flaw that they quickly (over)corrected.

You do know they changed the giant caves so you couldn't run in, and just loot the chest right? Because that's what people used to do, run in, loot the chests, safely behind the mushrooms, and you didn't have to kill a single giant. Now you have to kill the giants, and you can't hide behind the mushrooms.

They also spread the chests out, so that all the caves have some value. Because not all caves had chests.

Whisperdoom wasn't a fatal design.

[Aspenor]

Whisperdoom wasn't a fatal design.

No, actually Whisperdoom was considered an exploit. Bans were handed out.

[bobbryan2]

You do know they changed the giant caves so you couldn't run in, and just loot the chest right? Because that's what people used to do, run in, loot the chests, safely behind the mushrooms, and you didn't have to kill a single giant. Now you have to kill the giants, and you can't hide behind the mushrooms.

They also spread the chests out, so that all the caves have some value. Because not all caves had chests.

Whisperdoom wasn't a fatal design.

And they can all still be run like that, Dane. Now you just run in, drop down, grab the chest, and hightail it to the shrine. Then recall out and go hit the other two in a similar fashion. Only one of the giant caves do you have to kill anything, and that's just a single person.

They spread the chests out and made MORE of them. They created a LOOT run.

As far as Whisperdoom not being a fatal design... whatever..

[Dane_McArdy]

/signed
/signed
and /signed again

The only thing keeping me from running DQ and Von as much as I run the Titan and Reaver is the tedious prep. I'm just sick of it and don't bother anymore.


PS: Dane you sure you don't agree with the issue and just can't get yourself to admit you agree with tekn0?

I don't agree with the reasons as presented.

1. We are wasting time having to redo these quests each time. But everyone will agree that you can get through those quests no problem and quickly. Turbine knows this as well. The more you do these quests, the quicker and easier they get, more so as you level up. So it's hardly a waste of time. Anyone at the point of being bored doing these quests, knows them inside and out. What you want to do is jump to the parts that have the raid loot without the dog and pony show. I understand, you've done them to death. Everything gets boring after doing it that many times. But that means the actual raid part is just as boring. The only thing keeping interest in that part is the potential raid loot.

2. Those quests aren't fun, because we have run them to death. Oh but the parts that give you raid loot, those are still lots of fun! But when asked why they aren't fun, it comes out, well, no one would probably just run those parts if there wasn't raid loot.

3. We love grouping with 12 people! And it's hurting us that we can only do the prequests in groups of 6! But you also don't need 12 to do the raid part. We all know the end encounters don't require 12. Unless you want to maximize the amount of loot.

So in the end, it really comes down to raid loot is the only thing about the raids people advocating this change. I get it. I know people play the game for loot. Everyone does to some extent. Even me. I'm not driven by that as my primary reason for playing. If a person is driven to play for loot, and a lot of people are, they are going to see things a different way, and it's often "What changes to the game do I want, to allow me to achive what I want from the game?"

And yes, I'm sure Turbine sees that and fully understands what drives a player to make these suggestions. And I would venture to say that Turbine has discussed this subject amongst themselves a lot. And I would venture to say that the reason we haven't heard anything because there is no decisive answer amongst the dev's on if this would be good or bad for the game. I do know that they do want raid loot to be the exception to what gear people have, not the standard. Because they have said so themselves.

So with that ideal in place, I'm sure Turbine considers all changes to how raids are done, in terms of what will this do to the amount of raid loot entering the game, and what impact does it have over all to the game at large.

[Dane_McArdy]

Besides, come module 6, I doubt if any of you are going to care about the raid loot from past raids, since it sounds like you will be able to make the items you want.

This could all be moot in say 3-4 weeks.

[Lorien_the_First_One]

You do know they changed the giant caves so you couldn't run in, and just loot the chest right? Because that's what people used to do, run in, loot the chests, safely behind the mushrooms, and you didn't have to kill a single giant. Now you have to kill the giants, and you can't hide behind the mushrooms.

or run in and use a DDor, teleport, or word of recall to leave without killing anything

[Dane_McArdy]

or run in and use a DDor, teleport, or word of recall to leave without killing anything

I haven't run the caves in a while, but I do belive you have to actually kill the giants to open the chest in some of the caves now.

[Dane_McArdy]

And they can all still be run like that, Dane. Now you just run in, drop down, grab the chest, and hightail it to the shrine. Then recall out and go hit the other two in a similar fashion. Only one of the giant caves do you have to kill anything, and that's just a single person.

They spread the chests out and made MORE of them. They created a LOOT run.

As far as Whisperdoom not being a fatal design... whatever..

So, because you say it was a fatal design, it was, but if I say it wasn't I'm wrong.

Very hard to have a conversation when someone when it runs like that.

[Laith]

Very hard to have a conversation when someone when it runs like that.

well, i would have said that i love VoN5 because of the overall design/appearance and the balance of monster variety, puzzles, combat, and traps pages ago, but VoN1,2,4 (yes, i like 3) are annoying enough that i often consider not bothering to run it anymore. I also love seeing velah take off in VoN6. That still sends a chill down my spine somehow. The rest of VoN6 is kinda lame, but whatever: that image still reminds me of how i felt the first time i saw it.

I run VoNs only because I enjoy VoN5, and really like helping my guild/friends. We always have a blast in long raids. More time to just have fun, and more people to share in it. Often our guild finds itself with 8-10 people online, and this doesn't leave anyone out. I always run my cleric in there, because he is the most help to them, especially in VoN6.
You would have just said that the loot at the end of VoN6 was an overriding factor, even though i haven't had any need any of it in ages.

...so i didn't bother.

Dane, you seem to forget that all the 12man instances we currently have are or were major loot quests. It's pretty easy to draw the conclusion that if someone likes 12manning, it MUST be for the loot. However, TS is hardly the loot-run it was in the past, yet many people STILL run it regularly at cap, and it STILL placed very high in "favorite raid" poll on the forums (didn't it win?). Often it's run starting without any equipment/weapons ("nekkid" is the term). Hardly a loot run by today's standards.

Why is it that more often than not TS is the quest that's run nekkid?
Stormcleave and many other quests provide enough chests to equip full party of nekkid toons (i know, my guild's done a few), but strangly enough they weren't nearly as fun. Maybe it's the difference in quest, but i had to conclude that it was the fact that, with only 6 in the group, we had less people to laugh at our rediculousness.

I run Stormreaver because of the loot. I freely admit that i'm not a huge fan of the quest. It's good, but wouldn't be repeatable-good if it weren't for the easy loot. The other raids though: titan, DQ, abbot. Our guild hasn't really mastered them (but we're close on titan/DQ). When i run, i never expect loot. I expect to be challenged. I like a challenge.

Now you may say that nekkid TS runs are an exception to the rule that "raiding is for teh l3wtz". I have to say though, that i often have just as much fun running titan or VoN5/6 as nekkid running thru TS. Our guild really comes to life when there are a dozen of us in one party. Short raids like DQ & Reaver are kind of a waste of that IMO, which is probably part of the reason that i have fallen in love with all of the longer 12-mans.

Loot certainly is a reason that people raid... but it is far from the only reason, as you repeatedly state. If loot is the only reason you raid, well... i'm sorry.

[Yaga_Nub]

You are actually trying to bring MLK into this?

That's pretty low, you are trying to put a video game on the same level as social injustice. The change MLK was wanting had to do with justice, not fulling some persons entertainment needs. It shows a huge level of disrespect for what he did for justice, by relating it to an entertainment video game. And then you wonder why I have some of the views I do about what people really are saying and what they really mean.

And then to try and write off. You'd make a great lawyer, first you say it, then dismiss it because you know that all you have to do is say it, and then it's in peoples heads.

Absolutely, I am, because he's a great representation, and a well-known one, of what one person can do for a cause. He was on my mind because of his recent birthday. If I had used a name like Russell Means, would most people on this forum know who that is?

As I pointed out, I don't think this is even 1/1 billionth as important but maybe tekn0 and a few other do. Good for them if that's their thing. Not everyone is into big social issues.

The key point is that no one should ever be discouraged from trying to affect a change on ANYTHING if they see something as wrong.