Eliminate Raid Prerequisites for DQ and VON

[Lorien_the_First_One]

Just to answer the OP:
- I think the VoNs are fine, now any random pug can do them in about 1h, it's really not that bad, BUT it would be nice to be able to run them while on timer

lol I've seen some pugs, especially level appropriate ones, take an hour just in von3.

Von1-4 is a run that often takes longer than a pug can hold together for... being able to do them in any order, or removing the prereq of 1-4 would be nice.

[Jaywade]

I hope this is one the Dev's will "cave" on ....throw us a bone guys

[Hafeal]

Just to answer the OP:
- I think the VoNs are fine, now any random pug can do them in about 1h, it's really not that bad,

That has not been my experience. I have never had the joy of a group finishing all 4 vons in less than an hour. I have never been in a group that had the same 6 people finish all 4 vons without a substitution or two or three.

It doesn't take much planning, just make sure to keep yourself raid-ready at all times... if your guild decides to do a raid and you're not ready because you've been too lazy to do it in the past couple of weeks, it's really your own fault.

I will respectfully disagree and request that you please don't comment on my "laziness." Your comment assumes people play as much as you or that they play enough to choose to do this and that is simply not true.

[Grimmlock]

I think Tolero should put a poll on the main page about this. Should go something like this....

If you did not have to repeat the VON or DQ series flagging quests would you be more willing to run these 2 Raids on a more constant basis?

yes: 78%

no: 22%


What do you think?

[CSFurious]

your post made me wish that i also had some mustard and bread, yum-yum!

It doesn't take much planning, just make sure to keep yourself raid-ready at all times... if your guild decides to do a raid and you're not ready because you've been too lazy to do it in the past couple of weeks, it's really your own fault. The only problem really is for people raiding a lot, so that just delaying a VoN flag by 1 day may make them miss a raid. For this I think the best solution would be to remove the timer for VoN1-4 rather than removing the prereqs altogether.

[zyp]

I can't believe I read this whole thread...

...but I did. So now I feel entitled to include my little vote:

I'm totally for updating VON 5/6 and DQ 1/2 to be do-able without having to continually re-run the pre-reqs. Having to continually re-run these mindless speed-fests with no favor, no useful loot and certainly no experience just doesn't make sense. The raid loot system is such that we have to run the raids many many many times in order to obtain an item we desire. Please let us get on with our 'loot addiction' without the additional punishment.

[PhoenixRajoNight]

Good point. Pre-Gianthold, I know a lot of folks would run Vons 1-4 as soon as they could after the raid to get flagged. It didn't seem like much of an issue filling a group as a lot of people were ready to jump in a group at a moments notice. Now, some of the Velah raids (when you see the LFM up) sit for a long time before filling...if they ever do. I was going to jump in one the other night and had nobody dragon ready. I actually could have run 1-4 on normal TWICE in the time that they had that LFM up (wish I would have known). I can imagine how hard it is for 'newer' people to get enough folks to run it. That has to be pretty frustrating for a first-time dragon raider.

Good solution to doing raids is a raid guild, building up my own now, hoping to get about 18-20 good members that pair off to get flagging quests done. Only thing I wish was being able to have 12 players for flagging quests so when you go to do raid your not short 6 :-(. Hoping the raid guild thing is gonna work, but only time will tell only have 6 members right now, and mostly because I'm picky.

[Daerius of the Blessed Blades]

Add me to the rapidly growing list of supporters.
/signed

[HumanRogue]

I agree with updating these quests. I have several maxed out toons that I play and I have not set foot in these raids in over 6 months. I don't mind running the pre-raids and raids. I think they are actually pretty fun. The problem is I hate the desert quests and dont care much for the Von 1 to 3 quests. The Von raid only has a couple of items that are actually interesting anymore so why is someone going to spend all their time trying to get items that are going to be outdated almost as soon as they get them?

I would go one of two different directions with this. The first is to make the pre-raid and raid stand alone similar to the titan and newer quests so that people can play them (and only them) when they want to.

The second is simply make it so that everyone gets to chose one item from the raid loot as an end reward for completing all of the series. Face it there really isnt that much in those quests that is worth much anymore compared to the other items you can now get and will be able to get in Mod 6.

The first option would allow people to play these fun quests (like the deamon queen pre-raid) when they want to without being totally driven away by the prequests and give a chance for the raid loot in a similar maner as the new quests. The second method would make these raids more like a large quest series such as the mines (eastern, western and southern) where you get a decent end reward for finishing the complete series.

I just hate to see all the programming time that went into these dungeons go to waste as they become more and more out of date and pretty soon you wont be able to get a pug to go in cause its just not worth the effort compared to everything else out there. People spend time doing what they find either fun or profitable. These quests have pretty much stopped doing both of these for me so I dont run them. I would probably find those quests entertaining again if all I had to do was the pre-raid to do the raid so I hope they update these with the current direction of raids in the game.

Some people are afraid that if people dont have to repeat the prereq quests over and over then they wont be able to get new people into the raids and preraids. Well do you still find people to help you run the prereqs for the Titan? Do you still people playing in dungeons out in gianthold even though they are rever ready? People are always bringing up new toons and most wouldnt mind running these quests with level appropriate characters if they didnt have to do it over and over again so that they are sick of it. This is also where a good guild comes in. If you cant get them to help you get through some of these quests then mabee you are in the wrong guild!

[~Jules921]

I like that, and it would be SO much easier to deal with the quests "in any order" instead of trying to find a von group on the same step you are on.

I have done more partial runs of the von 1-4 then the entire chain for flagging. If I'm flagged for Velah I won't pug it and will hold out for a guild run instead.

Jules

[adamkatt]

You do know they changed the giant caves so you couldn't run in, and just loot the chest right? Because that's what people used to do, run in, loot the chests, safely behind the mushrooms, and you didn't have to kill a single giant. Now you have to kill the giants, and you can't hide behind the mushrooms.

They also spread the chests out, so that all the caves have some value. Because not all caves had chests.

Whisperdoom wasn't a fatal design.

Its funny that they did change those caves.. about the biggest waste of time to put a dev on those caves after all they had been the same for what almost 2 years? Some things the devs go back and change after a certain amount of time is just plain stupid.... My point here is they messed with these caves long after they were a viable loot run..

[GlassCannon]

I can't believe I read this whole thread...

...but I did. So now I feel entitled to include my little vote:

I'm totally for updating VON 5/6 and DQ 1/2 to be do-able without having to continually re-run the pre-reqs. Having to continually re-run these mindless speed-fests with no favor, no useful loot and certainly no experience just doesn't make sense. The raid loot system is such that we have to run the raids many many many times in order to obtain an item we desire. Please let us get on with our 'loot addiction' without the additional punishment.

Yup, yup, yup.

[winsom]

yes please. remove the boring grind of repeating several quests before each raid.

LOTRO has a good system of "raid-locks" where you can only do each raid every few days. If the DDO team wants to limit how often we have access to raid loot they should do something similar. Just increase the raid-lock-out time for these DDO raids.

[tihocan]

lol I've seen some pugs, especially level appropriate ones, take an hour just in von3.

Obviously level-appropriate ones take longer. But if you're doing a level-appropriate run, then you shouldn't mind doing them, because:
1. You're getting great XP out of them
2. You haven't been repeating them a lot yet

[tihocan]

I will respectfully disagree and request that you please don't comment on my "laziness." Your comment assumes people play as much as you or that they play enough to choose to do this and that is simply not true.

Whenever you login, you can choose to do what you want. If you really don't have time to do the pre-reqs for the raids, then maybe these raids just aren't for you. If you're ultra-casual, you must expect not to be able to do everything in a game that appeals to a broad audience.
From my experience, it seems the problem is mostly people who always postpone their raid-readiness run in favor of something giving more benefit in the short term, then are all sorry when they can't join a raid when the opportunity comes up.

[bobbryan2]

Whenever you login, you can choose to do what you want. If you really don't have time to do the pre-reqs for the raids, then maybe these raids just aren't for you. If you're ultra-casual, you must expect not to be able to do everything in a game that appeals to a broad audience.
From my experience, it seems the problem is mostly people who always postpone their raid-readiness run in favor of something giving more benefit in the short term, then are all sorry when they can't join a raid when the opportunity comes up.

Aaaaand... a change like removing the prereqs would open the raids up to a broader population.

That's the entire point.

If you want things to stay the same so only people that have the patience and motivation to grind away have access to the raids... that's something I suppose. I don't think the raids are some kind of right that the grinders deserve to get to run.

And secondly, most people don't post-pone their raid-readiness in favor of running something else. Most people go with the flow, and go help out with whatever the guild happens to be doing that night. So they're not sacrificing the long term over the short term, they're merely not getting as far because they're not prioritizing what they need to run ahead of time and taking iniative to set up groups and pugs and the like for it.

[tihocan]

If you want things to stay the same so only people that have the patience and motivation to grind away have access to the raids... that's something I suppose. I don't think the raids are some kind of right that the grinders deserve to get to run.

Well, that's a key point. I'd love everyone to be able to easily run raids too. I don't particularly want to exclude anyone from the fun. It would be great if we could all run any raid at any time, without any prerequisite and timer.
But let's face it, whether it's a good thing or not, it's the grinds that keep many powergamers busy with DDO.

[akla_thornfist]

hey tolero make this next months poll, would you like to eliminate the pre reqs for the dragon and DQ yes or no

[bobbryan2]

Well, that's a key point. I'd love everyone to be able to easily run raids too. I don't particularly want to exclude anyone from the fun. It would be great if we could all run any raid at any time, without any prerequisite and timer.
But let's face it, whether it's a good thing or not, it's the grinds that keep many powergamers busy with DDO.

But the grind is still there. Do you really think that gamers consider VON 1-4 to be a grind worth staying for? They still have to run VON 5-6 every 3 days. That's the real grind. You're just removing the annoying flagging before the actual grind.

I cannot fathom someone getting bored with DDO faster because they didn't have to run VON 3 again. If they were given a choice of whatever raid loot they still wanted after each completion? Sure. But because they don't have to run VON 3? No.

[MysticTheurge]

But let's face it, whether it's a good thing or not, it's the grinds that keep many powergamers busy with DDO.

Not really.

We've already covered how these flagging quests take roughly an hour, possibly less, for power gamers.

So, I find it hard to believe that that's what's really "keeping them busy."

Not to mention that I fail to see how you expect that argument to be compelling when you admit that it might fall into the "or not" category of whether it's a good thing.