Eliminate Raid Prerequisites for DQ and VON

[bobbryan2]

For whatever reason, Turbine doesn't seem to like it when quests become loot runs, do they? That is my point. Changes like these would make them more about loot runs. And Turbine has shown a strong dislike of turning their game into just that.

And like people keep telling you... Turbine has shown nothing of the kind. They have no problem with loot running at all. They have a problem with loot running with little to no difficulty. They have made the end fight to PoP a bit harder because they thought it was too easy. They thought people were cheesing out the prisons in PoP with cloud spells. So they change those 2 things... but the loot is there. The run can be done just as fast (or faster now).

It's STILL a loot run... it's just more balanced. Don't mistake rebalancing for hating looting.

[MysticTheurge]

For whatever reason, Turbine doesn't seem to like it when quests become loot runs, do they? That is my point. Changes like these would make them more about loot runs. And Turbine has shown a strong dislike of turning their game into just that.

And you keep ignoring my point which is that more recent raids (Titan, Abbot) are designed to allow you to loot run them.

So please explain where you're drawing your conclusions from. You can't just say "Turbine doesn't like Loot Runs," not give any support for it and expect to be taken seriously.

[Eladiun]

For whatever reason, Turbine doesn't seem to like it when quests become loot runs, do they? That is my point. Changes like these would make them more about loot runs. And Turbine has shown a strong dislike of turning their game into just that.

A capped character team can run VoN 1-4 in an hour and DQ prereq's in about 1.5 hours. How does that tiny time sink help prevent these quest from becoming loot runs? I would think the quest repeat timer does that not the insignificant and annoying pre-quests.

[Dane_McArdy]

And you keep ignoring my point which is that more recent raids (Titan, Abbot) are designed to allow you to loot run them.

There is much more involved in the Titan and Abbot, then walking in and seeing the mob and taking it down. You still need to run through all of set up to get to the Titan, and then taking the Titan down isn't the easiest thing to co-ordinate.

Same with the Abbot as it is now. It's not a simple walk in, put the smack down and loot. There is much that can go wrong before you get to face the abbott.

So please explain where you're drawing your conclusions from. You can't just say "Turbine doesn't like Loot Runs," not give any support for it and expect to be taken seriously.

I can if I want to. Seems to be the standard quo for 90% of the posters in the forums, so I don't see why I have to be held to higher standards.

I mean after all, your response that started this new chain of dialog was, So What?

[Dane_McArdy]

A capped character team can run VoN 1-4 in an hour and DQ prereq's in about 1.5 hours. How does that tiny time sink help prevent these quest from becoming loot runs? I would think the quest repeat timer does that not the insignificant and annoying pre-quests.

That's actually my point. People are saying those are huge wastes of time. But they can be done relativily quickly, especially by the people in this thread, who have done them to death.

Two of the reasons people are supporting this are:

1. those quests are boring and not fun. But when asked why the last part is still fun, it's because of the loot. So it's not really about those quests being boring, it's about not wanting to jump the hoops to get the loot. That's fair enough, say so.

2. Those quests take to long, you have to run a group through them, then wait for another group of 6. Actually, no you dont' have to wait for another group of 6, because we all know those two raids bosses can be done with 6 people, so why wait for 6 more...oh yeah, more chance for loot. So once again it comes down to really just wanting the loot.

Because, no one is really running the Dragon and Queen for fun. No one is really taking hours on end to run the prequests.

So just say you want to run the quests every 3 days without getting flagged, because all you really want is the raid loot. Is that so hard to acutally say? What do you think Turbines response to that would be?

[Dane_McArdy]

And like people keep telling you... Turbine has shown nothing of the kind. They have no problem with loot running at all. They have a problem with loot running with little to no difficulty. They have made the end fight to PoP a bit harder because they thought it was too easy. They thought people were cheesing out the prisons in PoP with cloud spells. So they change those 2 things... but the loot is there. The run can be done just as fast (or faster now).

It's STILL a loot run... it's just more balanced. Don't mistake rebalancing for hating looting.

So you can't see requiring people to run von 1-4 or the pre quests for DQ as part of that balance?

[Laith]

So you can't see requiring people to run von 1-4 or the pre quests for DQ as part of that balance?

if they required rerunning gianthold, titan, or abbot preraids, yes: i'd count that as part of the balance.

[bobbryan2]

I can if I want to. Seems to be the standard quo for 90% of the posters in the forums, so I don't see why I have to be held to higher standards.

Heh... that made me day.

"You can't make those kinda accusations without evidence!"

"Yes I can!"

--------

Sorry Dane, but we've all backed up our arguments through Turbine design decisions, specific quest examples, and our general perception and analysis of their design approach.

You're just saying things without any kind of support.

[bobbryan2]

So you can't see requiring people to run von 1-4 or the pre quests for DQ as part of that balance?

My post was about rebalancing and its effects on loot runs. DQ and Dragon have never been rebalanced. If they were to look at it and rebalance it, it is my belief they would remove the prereqs.

I just want them to take a second look and rebalance them.

[Aspenor]

I have never seen that Turbine doesn't like "loot runs."

I have seen that Turbine doesn't like exploiting to get loot.

[Laith]

nm

[Dane_McArdy]

I have never seen that Turbine doesn't like "loot runs."

I have seen that Turbine doesn't like exploiting to get loot.

Um, giant caves come to mind. Wisperdoom comes to mind. How is it an exploit to only focus on one aspect of a quest, just for loot. People weren't finding ways to exploit Wisperdoom, they just weren't completing it because you didn't need to complete it to get the 3 items. That wasn't the intent of the quest, so changed the quest. They also changed the loot tables, so that the good items, like the tomes and paralyzers didn't show up like they were in the reward window.

People ran the giant caves, or cave I should say, just to get the chest. That's not cheating or an exploit, no one was bugging out the mobs or using a hack. But it was clear that people only entered the quest, ran past the mobs and looted the chest.

Now Threnal was a different story. It was both.

[bobbryan2]

Um, giant caves come to mind. Wisperdoom comes to mind. How is it an exploit to only focus on one aspect of a quest, just for loot. People weren't finding ways to exploit Wisperdoom, they just weren't completing it because you didn't need to complete it to get the 3 items. That wasn't the intent of the game, so changed the quest.

People ran the giant caves, or cave I should say, just to get the chest. That's not cheating or an exploit, no one was bugging out the mobs or using a hack. But it was clear that people only entered the quest, ran past the mobs and looted the chest.

Now Threnal was a different story. It was both.

Well, at least you used a specific quest as evidence.

Giant Caves - They released chests in 2 other caves and made the overall cave loot run more beneficial. 30 chests per ransack as opposed to 20. And it can be done in approximately the same amount of time.

Whisperdoom - Broken game design. That was a completely unintended side-effect that they didn't see coming a mile away. And they corrected the broken design while leaving most of the rest of the quest intact.

What about the loot runs in PoP, Crucible, Xorian Cipher, BAM, Gianthold Tor, BtG.

Those all seem relatively intact.

[MysticTheurge]

There is much more involved in the Titan and Abbot, then walking in and seeing the mob and taking it down.

And since the beginning I think you're the only person who's suggested you'd be able to pop right in to VoN6.

People have even suggested that AtDQ should be beefed up and made into a "preraid."

I can if I want to. Seems to be the standard quo for 90% of the posters in the forums, so I don't see why I have to be held to higher standards.

I mean after all, your response that started this new chain of dialog was, So What?

It was "So What" followed by evidence suggesting that they don't have a problem with "raid loot runs."

But if you don't want to actually listen to what people say or offer support for your arguments, then there isn't much reason to debate stuff.

[Heladron]

I'd remove them too. That means I agree with tekno. However, they do only take about 30-40 minutes total for VoN 1-4. DQ unfortunately takes a bit longer since you have to clear the freakin mountain and the Drow.

[Oreg]

Yeah i'm definitely not advocating a Reaveresque change to Velah and DQ. More of a Titanesque change.

[Hafeal]

Tekno, I am in favor of your proposal.

I have gone back and forth on it for many of the reasons being discussed. I guess I have come to conclude that making these 2 lower level raids more accessible, people will run them more often, which I think is inherently good. People will then not be killing the other constant raid runs of Titan and Reaver (and Reaver is winning that battle at least 3-1).

The Von re-runs came at a time when there was way less content. With more content now and more coming, keeping these "old" raids vibrant is important. I would love to run Vons 1-4 in under an hour; I have never been able to do so nor been in a group that does. Yes, they are out there, but they are not "common." Von5-6 is 2+ hours for most groups - that is a night's gaming for me. Adding Vons 1-4 every time, has just had me not flagging for Dragon and running the other raids when I feel like raiding.

Which is really the problem to me, I love Velah and Von 5. I just don't want to have to spend 3-4 hours over several gaming nights to flag for it. I am clearly far from alone on this, and I think the result is that some of the games great content, regardless of loot, is not being utilized and enjoyed to its maximum.

As for loot, to me, Reaver is a much bigger problem than the opening up of DQ or Velah. Having only become Reaver raid ready in the last month, I have already run it more than other raid in the game. 4 high level chests in about 20 minutes?

[Grimmlock]

The point is that if I want to loot the Reaver every 3 days, I can without spending a hour or so getting blooded again. Same with the Titan. The only way to do the Dragon/DQ is to spend 2-4 hours for both (depending on group) make sure everybody else has it then go and raid. Since they changed the VON6 from the original and such and keep tying to make it harder for 14's what will they do when we get to 16. You pug a bunch of 8-10's in there now and it's not so easy as before. Why do you think the Reaver has a 6-1 run ratio (GUESTAMTATION)than the dragon or any other? Click on it and your in. I figure and may be wrong but if you look at the quest completions of most people it would be like this;

DRAGON: 5
TITAN: 18
QUEEN: 9
REAVER: 45
ABBOTT: 3

That is just an example not true fact. Most capped people only run Reaver for the tomes anyway. I would bet that if the dragon and dq did not have the pre's to run the Raids would probably a little more even.

And Dane I run the raids for the LOOT and being able to run with 12 other people in more than just 5 quests(not including Tempest)

[akla_thornfist]

Yeah i'm definitely not advocating a Reaveresque change to Velah and DQ. More of a Titanesque change.

ya i dont want to go straight in to von 6 or dq, but make dq pre raid a 12 man and von 5 as is

[Yaga_Nub]

Yeah i'm definitely not advocating a Reaveresque change to Velah and DQ. More of a Titanesque change.

I'd even like the reaver raid combined to the Tor.