Eliminate Raid Prerequisites for DQ and VON

[Yaga_Nub]

*thumps you all with the "be nice to each other" club*

Easy now gang. It's actually something I and the devs have been having a lot of talks about in my feed back reports. At this point in time I don't have any statements I can make in relation to the topic but the last thing I need is you all trying to kill each other over it. *sprays you all with spray bottle* No fighting folks.

Knocking us out with your club only means that we are now dreaming of killing each other rather than actually doing it..... until we wake back up.

[Mad_Bombardier]

Back on topic. I see no reason to keep VoNs 1-4 as prereqs. VoN5 is mandatory for the raid, so if VoNs1-4 were dropped, you still have something as a prereq. The mechanics would be just like raiding Titan. That's seems to me to be an easy decision.

Now, for the DQ. The quest items for DQ are a pain in the rear. Yes, you have the flexibility of running them in any order and banking the items. But, the items don't stack. So, people are unlikely to have more than 2 each or else lose valuable bank space. I'd like to see the items and those quests go away from reflagging. But, IMO, AtDQ needs to stay as a pre-req. Whether the quest is reworked to be a 12man pre-raid that leads directly to the Circle of Eternity (have the 2nd Queen battle in the mission be the actual raid), or whether it's left as a 6 man run (like Reaver & Abbot) remains to be discussed. But, we need to get rid of the 3 quest items (an overall failure as a raid flagging concept).

[Laith]

Now, for the DQ. The quest items for DQ are a pain in the rear. Yes, you have the flexibility of running them in any order and banking the items. But, the items don't stack. So, people are unlikely to have more than 2 each or else lose valuable bank space. I'd like to see the items and those quests go away from reflagging. But, IMO, AtDQ needs to stay as a pre-req. Whether the quest is reworked to be a 12man pre-raid that leads directly to the Circle of Eternity (have the 2nd Queen battle in the mission be the actual raid), or whether it's left as a 6 man run (like Reaver & Abbot) remains to be discussed. But, we need to get rid of the 3 quest items (an overall failure as a raid flagging concept).

...or just make them stack.

it seems to be by design that they don't stack, as a limiter in how many raids you pre-prep for, however i don't really see why they did it.

with all the frames and bags we've gotten recently, there is an easy way to make this a non-issue while still requiring us to run and re-run those quests.

[Tanka]

Besides, come module 6, I doubt if any of you are going to care about the raid loot from past raids, since it sounds like you will be able to make the items you want.

This could all be moot in say 3-4 weeks.

Uh, no.

I sincerely, sincerely doubt you'll be able to craft an adamantine two-hander with the damage of a greatsword (2d6), crit threat range of a falchion (18-20 base) and the crit multiplier of a greataxe (x3). I also doubt you'll be able to make Mithral Chainmail with the Max Dex of a Mithral Chain Shirt. Doubly doubtful on a pair of gloves that offer -10% Arcane Spell Failure, +5 UMD and +11 DD/OL. How about a Force Bursting small weapon with Greater Arcane Lore? Or a self-only clickie of Stoneskin? Or a necklace that procs HP loss into SP?

If any of these are actually craftable, they will undoubtedly take the most grind and the most rare recipe items to make. And just as in their relevant raids right now, they'll be the most sought after items in the raid to come.

*thumps you all with the "be nice to each other" club*

Easy now gang. It's actually something I and the devs have been having a lot of talks about in my feed back reports. At this point in time I don't have any statements I can make in relation to the topic but the last thing I need is you all trying to kill each other over it. *sprays you all with spray bottle* No fighting folks.

Thanks for letting us know you guys are at least considering something about the flagging issue.

[Jaywade]

Easy now gang. It's actually something I and the devs have been having a lot of talks about in my feed back reports. At this point in time I don't have any statements I can make in relation to the topic

thanks tolero ...you know I bet this would be a easy fix too....nice to know our feed back is getting to the right place

[Mad_Bombardier]

with all the frames and bags we've gotten recently, there is an easy way to make this a non-issue while still requiring us to run and re-run those quests.

Yes, but if they do away with VoNs1-4 for reflagging (and I see little reason not to, at this point), why leave DQ as the last holdout? It makes more sense to me convert both at the same time.

[Laith]

Yes, but if they do away with VoNs1-4 for reflagging (and I see little reason not to, at this point), why leave DQ as the last holdout? It makes more sense to me convert both at the same time.

well, of course.

just sayin: the items could easily stack, but they intentionally don't.
they're DESIGNED to take up a bunch of bank space, presumably as a disincentive for excessive pre-flagging.

compared to the 2 other raids present at DQ release: this makes it less restrictive than Velah, but still require re-flagging (unlike titan). The progression of flagging methods is pretty apparent when you really study the systems they've tried.

[Ciaran]

Yes, but if they do away with VoNs1-4 for reflagging (and I see little reason not to, at this point), why leave DQ as the last holdout? It makes more sense to me convert both at the same time.

For as long as I can remember the VONs have been a source of friction and debate in this game, specifically the need to re-run them in order to be Dragon ready each and every time. These days people blaze through them quickly (just over an hour if you get a good group that knows what to do) just to get ready for the Dragon, so the argument that "people just want to be able to get their loot faster" doesn't hold a lot of water...what's an hour of running VON 1-4 to somebody who is "after raid loot"?

[Boulderun]

Did you even bother to read what I said? I'll freely admit that raid loot is a part of what's happening here. Or more precisely, raid loot is why people want to do raids in the first place. But I don't think "Faster access to raid loot" is what's driving this suggestion. In reality, it wouldn't be any faster, since you can flag before the timer resets. All it would be is less annoying. And I fail to see what the problem with that is.

You can't re-flag for VoN until the timer resets, only DQ (and that only partially as well). So it would be both faster and far less annoying.

The "faster" thing itself really isn't about farming raid loot, anyway. It's about logging on and seeing your guild getting ready to do a raid, asking for more to join, and seeing that while your timer has reset it would be seriously lame to have them wait while others speed run you through the requirements. Sometimes doing that is not a problem for anybody, but it is still lame and the mechanic in place is a fundamental obstacle to enjoying the game with your friends.

And for the record, VoN 5 is and has been one of my favorite dungeons. Initially because it was complex, engaging, varied, and challenging; then later because we pioneered things like jumping around the bridges and the one-man-three-switch routine; now because I can train around bunches of zombies or warforged and see how many I can smite or disrupt in one shot/cleave.

VoN 6 has always blown chunks, though. That one I only do for the loot.

[MysticTheurge]

Yes, but if they do away with VoNs1-4 for reflagging (and I see little reason not to, at this point), why leave DQ as the last holdout? It makes more sense to me convert both at the same time.

Well, it would be an acceptable "easy" solution.

VoN: Drop VoN 1-4 prereqs, allow people to start on VoN 5.
DQ: Allow items to stack.

It's not ideal, but it would be a lot easier than

DQ: Completely rework AtDQ to be a 12-man instance.

You can't re-flag for VoN until the timer resets, only DQ (and that only partially as well). So it would be both faster and far less annoying.

Yeah but even so you're talking about the difference between 2-and-a-half days and 2-and-a-half-days-and-thirty-minutes. It's not going to make a significant difference in the speed at which people can get access to the raid loot chest. That's what the timer is there for.

The real problem is all the other stuff you (and other people) have mentioned. Having that last guildy log on, but realize he's on VoN2 and then having to run him through it real quick while everyone else starts on VoN5. Or having 7 people who need to get flagged and having to deal with the fact that you can only have 6 in a group.

Raid loot aside, that's just bad design.

[tekn0mage]

*thumps you all with the "be nice to each other" club*

Easy now gang. It's actually something I and the devs have been having a lot of talks about in my feed back reports. At this point in time I don't have any statements I can make in relation to the topic but the last thing I need is you all trying to kill each other over it. *sprays you all with spray bottle* No fighting folks.

I'm just happy that it wasn't me doing the bashing this time Thanks Tolero. BTW I saw you the other day. A TWF'er hmm? Looks like you had a Khopesh in one hand and a Sickle in the other. Pretty slick.

[Mad_Bombardier]

Well, it would be an acceptable "easy" solution.

VoN: Drop VoN 1-4 prereqs, allow people to start on VoN 5.
DQ: Drop quest item prereqs, allow people to start on AtDQ.

I'd prefer the above bolded change. 6 man pre-raids are not out of the question. I was simply suggesting that 12 man pre-raids are more fun.

[Raithe]

The "faster" thing itself really isn't about farming raid loot, anyway. It's about logging on and seeing your guild getting ready to do a raid, asking for more to join, and seeing that while your timer has reset it would be seriously lame to have them wait while others speed run you through the requirements. Sometimes doing that is not a problem for anybody, but it is still lame and the mechanic in place is a fundamental obstacle to enjoying the game with your friends.

In the last year of playing, I have never been in a situation where I didn't have at least one character flagged for the Dragon or Demon Queen. Even immediately after completing one or the other. Once again, it boils down to having the right character, who needs the raid loot, ready.

It is a valid point, nonetheless.

[Hafeal]

Tolero -

Thank you for the feedback and the acknowledgment that this idea has been discussed. If you could let us know what the outcome is, it would be greatly appreciated as well.

*thumps you all with the "be nice to each other" club*

Easy now gang. It's actually something I and the devs have been having a lot of talks about in my feed back reports. At this point in time I don't have any statements I can make in relation to the topic but the last thing I need is you all trying to kill each other over it. *sprays you all with spray bottle* No fighting folks.

[Ciaran]

You can't re-flag for VoN until the timer resets, only DQ (and that only partially as well). So it would be both faster and far less annoying.

The "faster" thing itself really isn't about farming raid loot, anyway. It's about logging on and seeing your guild getting ready to do a raid, asking for more to join, and seeing that while your timer has reset it would be seriously lame to have them wait while others speed run you through the requirements. Sometimes doing that is not a problem for anybody, but it is still lame and the mechanic in place is a fundamental obstacle to enjoying the game with your friends.

And for the record, VoN 5 is and has been one of my favorite dungeons. Initially because it was complex, engaging, varied, and challenging; then later because we pioneered things like jumping around the bridges and the one-man-three-switch routine; now because I can train around bunches of zombies or warforged and see how many I can smite or disrupt in one shot/cleave.

VoN 6 has always blown chunks, though. That one I only do for the loot.

Yep, this has been a problem that repeats itself quite often when it comes to running the Dragon - people forgot to advance their quest, or weren't able to log on during the week to get ready for a scheduled Dragon run that Friday/Saturday...it's frustrating to put it mildly.

I also agree that revamping AtDQ to be a 12 man raid would be difficult and probably unnecessary. We stomped through it pretty easily on normal with five people of varying levels (our poor bard was getting PL'ed, which he said he didn't mind because he was learning the quest) and only one melee. Making that quest a 12 man raid would more than likely require the quest to be closed temporarily like your favorite ride at Six Flags and that would be aggravating.

[Ciaran]

In the last year of playing, I have never been in a situation where I didn't have at least one character flagged for the Dragon or Demon Queen. Even immediately after completing one or the other. Once again, it boils down to having the right character, who needs the raid loot, ready.

It is a valid point, nonetheless.

No, it boils down to being available to run the quest with guild/friends. The right character may or may not need the raid loot, they are the right character because it's what the group lacks.

Here's a situation I've seen occur more than once:

"Hey, so-and-so, is your cleric Dragon ready? All the clerics in our level range that are flagged are already in group"

"No, I need VON 3 & 4"

"Didn't you run those last week?"

"Yes, but I ran the Dragon since then"

"Oh, that's right. ****...we might not be able to run this because some of us only have so much time before we need to log. Guess we'll try to run the Dragon later".
*Group breaks up*

So, apparently it isn't just about who's available that needs the raid loot, it's about having the right characters to fill out the party, irrespective of if they need the raid loot.

Here's a situation I personally have never seen happen:

"Hey, so-and-so, is your cleric Dragon ready?"

"Yes"

"Great! Do you want to run the Dragon with us? We need another cleric".

"No, I don't need any of the raid loot from there".

"Oh man, that sucks, I don't think we can run this with just one cleric".

"Yeah, probably not, sorry...gonna join a Reaver raid now".

[Bogenbroom]

I have to agree with Raithe here. I *HATE* doing raids. I don't like the group dynamics that develop with that many people doings quests with hoops to jump through. I haven't been in one yet where someone wasn't ****ed off.

So I think anything the Devs can do to moderate the quantity and frequency of raiding is a good thing. Raids are supposed to be special events, not loot grinds.

I would agree, however, that repetition of the same content over and over again doesn't put that content in the best light. I might suggest an approach that continued to require running other content, but created some flexability in achieving that goal. Frankly I really like the way Gianthold is setup, in terms of relics dropping in multiple quests. So what if, for DQ, instead of having to replace the end items, you had to "re-charge" them, and you could do that in the other Desert quests? Recharge the phylactery in any of the Tombs, the orb in Chains or the fallen shrine, etc...

For VON, instead of 1-4, maybe you could do Black Anvil & the other one out there....

Frankly I don't like the permanent flagging because you end up with situations like you have in the Orchard and Titan, where, once flagged, no one wants to run those quests. Since I vastly prefer 6 man quests, that causes the sad.

[MysticTheurge]

I have to agree with Raithe here. I *HATE* doing raids. I don't like the group dynamics that develop with that many people doings quests with hoops to jump through. I haven't been in one yet where someone wasn't ****ed off.

So I think anything the Devs can do to moderate the quantity and frequency of raiding is a good thing.

So because you don't like them, people who do enjoy them should be forced to jump through a bunch of hoops in order to do so?

[Grimmlock]

It's actually something I and the devs have been having a lot of talks about in my feed back reports. At this point in time I don't have any statements I can make in relation to the topic

This will probably get me into trouble but, what kind of response is that Tolero?

Nothing in that statement provided us with anything we can go on. OK so you are talking to them. At least thats something

Are they interested in implementing some kind of change?

Do they feel that if they make the changes to these 2 Raids they might be run close to the numbers of the Reaver and Titan?

I unerstand most people do not like change " if its not broke don't fix it" but can you possibly tell me that the Dragon and DQ are being run at the same rate as the other raids?

If they are please show me some proof on this. By changing the way we flag for these quests I feel as others do it will make the Raids more enjoyable to run without the 1-2 hours spent "getting ready". Instead we can take those unspent hours running the 80 other quests. People will still run the VON series thats a given, good xp in there.

The pre-raid and raids are fun, thats what this game is about "FUN". The flagging every 3 days on VON's and DQ pre's is not. I know DQ you can store in the bank.

Simple solution is to make them required like the Titan, turn in some sort of object to the pre raid and be done with it.

[Laith]

This will probably get me into trouble but, what kind of response is that Tolero?

The best one she can give, apparently.

They're discussing it, meaning that easing the re-flagging in some way or another is "on the table". Seeing as it's the only response a thread like this has gotten on the subject, it's an AMAZING affirmation that this issue isn't being ignored or hasn't been completely shot down.

A change is still possible, sometime in the future.

In effect: it's exactly the sort of answer that the OP was looking for.