Eliminate Raid Prerequisites for DQ and VON

**bobbryan2** · 01-23-2008, 09:33 AM

Originally Posted by Dane McArdy

So, because you say it was a fatal design, it was, but if I say it wasn't I'm wrong.

Very hard to have a conversation when someone when it runs like that.

Very hard to have a conversation with ME?

You just illustrated my point to perfecting with your little bulleted post. You either don't read what someone says, or you accuse them of lying, and move on to arguing what you 'think' the other person really meant.

1. They're annoying. But we all know that by annoying you mean there's no loot. But there is loot in Von 6, so you are really just in it for loot.

2. Enjoying 12 people. The raids don't take 12 people, so you're really just in it for loot.

etc etc

You break every argument down to loot and then argue against that point instead. People have given you reasons why you're completely out of your element on Whisperdoom and the Giant Caves, but you ignore those points, and highlight the one line where I said Whisperdoom is a fatal flaw. You didn't give a single reason as to why it wasn't. I could have said a lot of things: People were more than 200k in xp debt. People were crashing the NPCs in House J. The servers had to come down for a hotfix in less than a week, etc. But if I said any of those, you would have just ignored them... so... yeah.

**MysticTheurge** · 01-23-2008, 09:37 AM

Originally Posted by Dane McArdy

1. We are wasting time having to redo these quests each time. But everyone will agree that you can get through those quests no problem and quickly.

So something isn't "wasting time" if it's not wasting a lot of time?

You wouldn't mind if you had to spend 3 minutes doing the hokey pokey before your car would start?

Moreover, if they're so easy and trivial why should people have to do them?

Originally Posted by Dane McArdy

2. Those quests aren't fun, because we have run them to death. Oh but the parts that give you raid loot, those are still lots of fun! But when asked why they aren't fun, it comes out, well, no one would probably just run those parts if there wasn't raid loot.

People have answered this one already, but you're just ignoring them.

If it's all about the raid loot why is Tempest Spine one of the most popular raids in the game?

Originally Posted by Dane McArdy

3. We love grouping with 12 people! And it's hurting us that we can only do the prequests in groups of 6! But you also don't need 12 to do the raid part. We all know the end encounters don't require 12. Unless you want to maximize the amount of loot.

I'm confused here, because this seems like a rather feeble attempt at a Straw Man.

Some people have said they like to run in groups of 12 and that's why the raids are more fun for them. What the hell does the fact that you don't have to take 12 people into the raids have to do with that? And how in the heck does that convert to wanting more loot?

Originally Posted by Dane McArdy

So in the end, it really comes down to raid loot is the only thing about the raids people advocating this change. I get it.

No, you clearly don't. You think you "get it" because you've ascribed a motivation to everyone arguing this change and decided to ignore all of their arguments to the contrary.

Raid loot may be part of what's driving request for these changes, but it's not the only thing and your attempts to make it sound like it is really are quite insulting to our intelligence.

**Rindalathar** · 01-23-2008, 10:01 AM

I must say, this argument might become a bit clearer if someone at Turbine gave us an answer as to why two raids (Reaver and Titan) take minutes to get into and others (Dragon and Queen) are chores. We've never (to my knowledge) gotten any indication why it's this way. If Turbine said, "Well, we have it this way because...XXXXX", then I might feel a bit more understanding, but as it stands, keeping two one way and two another, without no comment, is NOT good community relations, IHMO.

**Cireeric** · 01-23-2008, 10:01 AM

Will give thanks to Mhykke for the thread in November. Tek just restated it.

**Gengulphus** · 01-23-2008, 10:04 AM

/signed

Especially for DQ!!! But also VON.

**gpk** · 01-23-2008, 10:05 AM

Yep it's an issue that's been reposted quite a bit, and rightfully so.

I'm lasy this morning, so here is my original post from October:

Originally Posted by gpk

Ok it's been discussed before in other ways but I'll bring it up again in maybe a new mod5 light.

It's been suggested that the mod5 Raid Loot changes are to encourage large raids.
That's all fine and dandy I'm not here to discuss that aspect. However:

Mod2, Titan: Flag once, 12 player preraid, 12 player raid
Mod4 Stormreaver: Flag once+ 6 player preraid, 12 player raid from then on
Mod5, Black Abbot: Flag once, 6 player preraidx4 , 12 player raid from then on

Mod1, Velah the Red Dragon: 4x 6 player prereqs (in order) for 2 groups of 6, 12 player
preraid, 12 player raid. Repeat process for next raid.
Mod3 Lailat the Demon Queen: 3x 6 player prereqs (out of order, bankable items) for 2 groups of 6, 6 player
preraid, 12 player raid. Repeat process for next raid.

I think in a near future patch the Velah and Lailat Raids need to have the prereqs removed once and for all, it simply isn't fun splitting into 2 groups to meet up aftwerwards for the actual raid, not to mention it can sometimes be a logistical nightmare. If we are to be "forced" to participate in large (often chaotic) groups to raid, don't force us to split into smaller groups to get there.

I realize there are bigger fish to fry atm and this will once again get lost in the shuffle, but it's something keep in mind for future ugame updates.

**Jaywade** · 01-23-2008, 10:07 AM

I guess I'll throw my hat in the ring here.....

Dragon still one of the best raid instances (von 5 & 6 ) IMO, however I too am tired from running Von 1-4 all the time,,,,currently I have 8 capped toons, they all run reaver at least twice a week, half of them run titan twice a week, the dragon I run when I can find the time (about 45 mins) to flag a toon, now I would love to be able to flag dragon and run it twice a week with all 8 of my toons but what is 16 X 45 mins = 720 min or 12 hrs ... I just don't have 12 hrs to just flag all my guys, so I don't run raid that honestly I like best, it's also why I never run DQ.....even if I only flagged 4 times that's still 3 hrs just to flag.... it's just takes too much time.

I heard question if makeing this change for be bad for the game? I ask how could it hurt the game ?....

so here's a suggestion ....make the next lvl of house k favor unlock the ability to go right to Von 5...all the quests are house k favor, this will still give a reason for us all to grind throughthem a couple of times for xp and favor but then we can by pass them when we have enough favor.....

if you could do the same w/ the DQ for free agaent favor you dev's woud become my hero's

**Aspenor** · 01-23-2008, 10:15 AM

Originally Posted by Cireeric

Will give thanks to Mhykke for the thread in November. Tek just restated it.

And the one I wrote a while back too

This is like the 5th or 6th thread to be honest.

**Cowdenicus** · 01-23-2008, 10:23 AM

Originally Posted by Aspenor

And the one I wrote a while back too

This is like the 5th or 6th thread to be honest.

Well you know what they say about #47 being a charm...... Wait n/m.

**Raithe** · 01-23-2008, 10:39 AM

Originally Posted by MysticTheurge

Raid loot may be part of what's driving request for these changes, but it's not the only thing and your attempts to make it sound like it is really are quite insulting to our intelligence.

Hey, cool, then let's compromise with the Devs. Let's add an option when speaking with Barrow d'Kundarak the first time to repeat the preraid and raid without flagging, but no raid loot chest is spawned at the end of VoN 6. That would be a decent compromise that would appeal to most of the posters in this thread, right?

Yeah, I didn't think so.

**Laith** · 01-23-2008, 10:42 AM