Multi-Patch/Update Preview: XP Changes

[Dandonk]

Only things that was a bonus to base XP of a quest increase reaper XP.

That is ransack, conquest and ingenious bonus. Nothing else ever increased reaper XP as far as I know.

That is my experience as well.

Sometimes, though, doing an optional will toggle the display of the daily bonus back on, and therefore seem to add rxp. It doesn't alter the rxpp (or normal xp) actually added at completion, of course.

[Iriale]

Sounds like maybe several of my assumptions were changed over time/concept or I was simply confused about reaper xp?

EI: bravery, optionals


Again, we do need some strong Dev explanations on the matter.
I don't mind waiting till they meet, research, prepare, ect…
But I do really want the Devs to explain reaper experience in great detail along with plans for the future.




Don't mean to be pay to win, but Otto's is so outdate.
If the Devs want to pay to win, rxp would need to be included.
50% pots (I used 30% or none) are so much better now.

Optionals never increased the rpx, although it is something that was suggested before it arrived in Lammania years ago. What does increase is ransack, trap bonus, conquest.

There were two changes from what they told us about what affects the rpx, at start of the system: one is the BB (this can be a ninja nerf or a bug, I don't know) and the % they put to adjust the xp according to the length of the dungeons (announced and well explained by the devs).

[Caarb]

Optionals never increased the rpx, although it is something that was suggested before it arrived in Lammania years ago. What does increase is ransack, trap bonus, conquest.

Might be confusing it with the infamous "Chest Looted Bonus" that Sev thought applied to bonus experience from the Original Reaper Thread (edited out but can read it in some of the quotes)

You can also see that Bravery and Bravery Streak are not mentioned only the 200% First time (which people assumed at the time was 120% +30% +50%)

[Carpone]

Some context with my perspective: I've completed more than 80 heroic/racial past lives and 50 epic past lives across several characters, and my main toon has 50 reaper points (0 from Amber Temple farms). I absolutely fall within the "optimize XP per minute" camp. Time is my most limited resource.

The following quests will have a MAJOR increase (10-20%) to their XP:

Temple of Elemental Evil (both halves) - The idea that 10-20% more XP would make ToEE2 even remotely competitive with other quests shows a lack of understanding about how we actually play. You'd have to double the XP to get people to go there for XP.

Precious Cargo - 42 minute duration is the reason people don't run this quest for XP. The XP needs to be competitive to other XP/min quests, and it's going to take much more than 20% XP to do that.

Tethymar Mines chain - I never run this for epic XP; I only run it for reaper XP. Even after this change, you're incentivizing me to save this for first time bonuses to maximize RXP.

Black and Blue - Even with a 20% XP bump, it's too long to consider for epic XP. I'll run this at cap for first time RXP bonus.

The Newcomers - Slugfest. Case in point: Conquest bonus is 286 or more monsters killed. I might run this at level cap for first time RXP bonus, but never again until first time bonuses are reset.

The following quests will have a MINOR increase (5-10%) to their XP:

Carnival chain - The base XP of this entire chain is low. Big Top used to be worth running back in the day before invisible walls were added to prevent short cuts. I haven't run this in years, and have zero plan to do so even if you bump the chain by 10%.

Highroads chain - It's decent XP but I'm not a fan of it. I ran this into the ground years ago when it was fresh. I only run it when I need favor.

Slavelords chain - People run this for mats; the epic XP and reaper XP is garbage. 10% more XP doesn't change this.

Tower of Frost - Same as TOEE2 above.

LShroud flagging - I usually run these at cap for RXP. I might do these for epic XP with the changes.

Against the Demon Queen/Chains of Flame - ADQ is already great heroic XP. The problem is two fold: The run to and length of CoF. Bumping CoF XP by 10% is not enough to get me to run this in heroic. You need to look at this at how players look at this: XP/min. It's not in the same ballpark as other quests. Either bump CoF XP by a much larger amount, or remove flagging requirements from ADQ. Similar to how Litany was, ADQ/DQ is a double flagging quest. You removed the chokepoint for Litany by adopting a "one and done" approach with the sigil. Implement a cross-life sigil equivalent for ADQ. But I know you won't, because it's been asked for years. TLDR: Increase CoF XP by 40% and you'll see people run it once every heroic and epic life. Remove ADQ flagging and you'll see people running it without an XP change.

The Dreaming Dark - People run this for favor or ioun stones, not XP. Especially with U43 Sharn quests being level 17, and elite streak rules (level +2) applying for reaper XP, I won't ever run IQ again. Not unless you up the XP of the entire chain.

Eveningstar chain 1+2+misc - This is a welcome change. +5% XP is anemic though, since this will become "mandatory" for epic past lives.

Made to Order - Never ran it.

The Cursed Crypt - Haven't run this in years since there's little point to maximizing Silver Flame favor anymore. There are way better XP/min quests at this level.

Memory Lapse/The Price of Freedom - I recently ran these once for the first time, ever. I dislike the quest design and won't be running them again, ever.

Reaver's Refuge - ETK and Monastery is already great XP and has been a leveling staple for many years. An XP buff really isn't needed for those two, but if it means more people will run them, then go for it. Prey XP is a bit lackluster unless you kill the dragons at the end (10k optional). I haven't run Stealer of Souls in seven years, because flagging for it is burdensome. That's a shame, because I like the quest design. Change the flagging to "once and done forever" like Litany, or remove it entirely, and I'd consider running SoS each life again.

Bargain of Blood chain - I already run heroic and epic for first time bonuses. The other quests in the chain are garbage XP.

Archon’s Trial chain - Already decent XP.

The Haunted Halls of Eveningstar/extended - Ran these once. Never again. I hate the quest design with a passion.

Through a Mirror Darkly (Epic Only) chain - Mirror XP is already great.

Stormhorns chain - WGU XP is already great. All of the prereqs need more than a 10% XP boost.

Red Fens chain - Fathom the Depths was already decent XP. The rest are mediocre at best, and this minor XP bump won't change that.

The Palace of Stone chain - I ran this into the ground when it was released for the no ML +6 stat items. After they were nerfed, I never stepped foot back in there. Plenty of better heroic XP/min options, even when you consider this proposed XP boost. You'd have to jack up the XP more for it to be better than other options at this level.

[Potatofasf]

The post and the preview of this was posted last Weds so there have been roughly 2 business days to at least respond to the first TEN pages of feedback. Nice try.

Yep, that changes will stick we arguing about it or not.

Looks like the DEVs want people ranting and leaving the game. It's is an agenda, I imagine the first lines of a development meeting:

"We don't need NEW or RETURNING players, how do we kick out the few last ones to close this cash cow?"

So comes those pre-patches!

Some context with my perspective: I've completed more than 80 heroic past lives and 50 epic past lives, and currently have 50 reaper points (0 from Amber Temple). I absolutely fall within the "optimize XP per minute" camp. Time is my most limited resource.

The Newcomers - Slugfest. Case in point: Conquest bonus is 286 or more monsters killed. I might run this at level cap for first time RXP bonus, but never again until first time bonuses are reset.

I've made a post about giving Individual Monster Killed EXP por those long quests, but was bashed as an animal... Some quests are not worth running at all.

[bracelet]

Last I checked, doing optionals was supposed to increase rxp.
How will these changes impact thus?

I am going to go against the tide here. If you open the XP report, scroll down to the RXP section and complete an optional, you will literally see the RXP number go up. I have checked it many times and it seems to stick. So I am going with yes, optionals do indeed increase RXP. But these changes are so complex, I would not be at all surprised if that breaks in the process.

[Caarb]

I am going to go against the tide here. If you open the XP report, scroll down to the RXP section and complete an optional, you will literally see the RXP number go up. I have checked it many times and it seems to stick. So I am going with yes, optionals do indeed increase RXP. But these changes are so complex, I would not be at all surprised if that breaks in the process.

No what you are seeing is a display bug where the daily xp sometimes shows and other times doesn't happens for normal xp too.

[Silverleafeon]

Thanks for the replies +1s where possible.


So, reading thru this quote below, there is zero mention of bravery in the xp calculations if they are correct.

This is likely why one of the closer math by me, left bravery not apply even though I did not believe thus.

IF SO, then the changes outlined at beginning of this thread are terrible and a big nerf to reaper experience.
As I have said before rxp is far more important for a toon than experience even though it might not seem so for a long time.

Greetings!

We have had some questions about how Reaper XP is calculated, so I wanted to post some details about how we award it.

First, some news:

~ Reaper XP is currently not getting a modifier for dungeon length as intended and explained below. That is a bug and will be fixed in an upcoming patch.


That said, here are some details about Reaper XP and how it is awarded.


Reaper Experience starts with a base formula as follows:

50 + (3 * Base Challenge Rating of the Dungeon/Raid * Number of Reaper Skulls)

This total is then modified by a whole slew of experience related adjustments as follows:

BUGGED: This first multiplier is bugged and does not apply until the next time we update.
1.) We multiply the base XP by a factor for dungeon length.

• Short dungeons have a multiplier of 0.9
• Medium dungeons have a multiplier of 1.0
• Long dungeons have a multiplier of 1.1
• Very Long dungeons have a multiplier of 1.2

2.) We take the level of the highest party member and compare it to the base challenge rating. This creates a “spread” between the difficulty of the dungeon and the highest party member.

Once the spread is determined we apply the following penalty:

• If there is a 1 level difference: -20% of base XP.
• If there is a 2 level difference: -50% of base XP.
• If there is a 3 level difference: -70% of base XP
• If there is a 4 level difference: -80% of base XP
• If there is a 5 level difference: -90% of base XP.
• If there is a 6 level difference: -95% of base XP.

Note that this is not a multiplier to all XP, but rather a penalty to total XP based on the base XP. It works the same way as the normal XP penalty.

3.) Like normal XP, we modify the XP to account for power leveling if players are below level 20. We determine the spread between your level and the highest level in the party; if the spread is 4 or more, then a penalty is applied equal to 50% of base XP per level of difference.

4.) Reaper XP is modified for repetition. This is basically the Reaper version of the Ransack bonus.

First, if this is your first time completing this dungeon on Reaper mode we apply a 200% bonus. Like other XP bonuses, this bonus is not a multiplier to total Reaper XP, but rather an addition of 200% of the base Reaper XP.

If this is not your first time completing the dungeon, then we apply the same ransack penalties to Reaper XP that we would for normal XP.

5.) We modify the XP for Reaper XP during group bonus events the same way we increase normal XP. This means that during group weekend events, Reaper XP will be increased as your group size increases just like normal XP.

6.) We modify the XP for bonus Reaper XP events.

7.) Reaper XP is modified if a player enters well after the start time just like normal XP.

8.) Reaper XP is modified by various progress made in the dungeon.

• Players get the monsters killed bonus.
• Players get the traps disabled bonus.
• Players get the secret doors found bonus.
• Players get the breakables smashed bonus.

10.) Reaper XP is boosted by items that provide a permanent XP boost.

11.) Failed quests add no Reaper XP.

12.) If this is the first quest you have run today, you get the same bonus to Reaper XP that you would get to normal XP.

The following bonuses are not applied as additions or penalties of base Reaper XP like the above, but instead are multipliers to total Reaper XP applied after the fact.

13.) Any XP items that boost normal XP also boost Reaper XP. This includes web store items, in game items like Voice of the Master and Mantle of the World Shaper, and the Shrine of Experience from your guild Air Ship. This bonus is applied to total Reaper XP, and it is shown as a message in the chat log.

14.) The VIP bonus applies to Reaper XP is the same way as normal XP. This bonus is applied to total Reaper XP, and it is shown as a message in the chat log.

Sev~

[Rull]

Step 1: Add a 100% first time bonus to optionals instead of a ransack penalty to later runs.

Step 2: Where needed, decrease the xp of the particular optionals that give to much xp for their effort. Step 1 will keep them kind of interesting the first time.

[Iriale]

Thanks for the replies +1s where possible.


So, reading thru this quote below, there is zero mention of bravery in the xp calculations if they are correct.

This is likely why one of the closer math by me, left bravery not apply even though I did not believe thus.

IF SO, then the changes outlined at beginning of this thread are terrible and a big nerf to reaper experience.
As I have said before rxp is far more important for a toon than experience even though it might not seem so for a long time.

yeah, it's a nerf, for that people are worried.

In general, all in this update is a nerf. They should named it "Multi-Nerf/Update Preview" :P

[Cantor]

yeah, it's a nerf, for that people are worried.

In general, all in this update is a nerf. They should named it "Multi-Nerf/Update Preview" :P

The quoted post makes it sound like reaper xp should be unchanged except by the daily change. It got it's own 200 and never saw the 120 first time and bravery. The changes outlined read as is they only affect normal xp. I wish I had been able to log in and complete some quests to check. The only thing I saw posted compared normal xp only.

Did anyone actually complete some quests to see what the rxp was? I was on vacation and couldn't log.

[Thrudh]

6. The over and under level bonuses for Reaper will be changed to be the same as Elite. This will reduce confusion and provide a wider grouping level.

By the way, I forgot to thank you guys for this.

Excellent change.

[Silverleafeon]

Did anyone actually complete some quests to see what the rxp was? I was on vacation and couldn't log.

I did, and quoted the results.
Ran out of time to do more.
I can gather them up and repost them.
Not sure if part of them are on the changes to reaper thread?

[Cantor]

I did, and quoted the results.
Ran out of time to do more.
I can gather them up and repost them.
Not sure if part of them are on the changes to reaper thread?

Going by your garrisons run... 235/56= 4.2 so you are getting a 320% boost. So we just have to work that out. I only see 200 from the above quote +10+10+10 From the in quest bonus + daily run bonus. It doesn't add up. We just need to figure it out.

Fix: It's also listed as long so should have a 1.1 multiplier. 4.2/ 1.1 = 3.8. Which means it's a 280% boost not 320.

When I get home I'll go run it on live and see what it gives.

[Silverleafeon]

My test server figures, along with flaw and confusion in figuring out this new system:
Pardon there were not more.
I could not copy my main (guild leader).

My toon is on the test server at level 19 inside rainbow of the dark, receiving bravery bonus.

That is level 16 dungeon with level 19 toon.


This dungeons listed bravery base as 471 rxp for toon at character level 18 and 19.
Bug reporting.

I think this one, I stepped in, killed 10 monsters then looked at the xp report.
This level 19 toon has Greater tome and 50% pot on this toon, vip

Test server bug report:

Went into dungeon base level 2 (missing in action) on reaper 1. Character level 4. Showing bravery bonus +100% Summoned level 4 hire showed same. Summoned level 5 hire showed same. Summoned level 6 hire still listing bravery bonus +100% in xp log, but now with -10% xp for over level player.


EI: Bravery showing at all sorts of levels not proper ones.

Reaper was reduced when the level 6 hire appeared by 10%

This one stepped in killed 10 monters and looked at xp report I think.
The level four toons have No tomes, no xp pots, vip

Garrison's missing pack level 4 toon, first time thru:
Base xp 879
Base rxp 56

VIP (not included in this copy from xp chart) +10%
Flawless +10%
Persistence +10%
Aggression +10%

Daily +25%
First Time Reaper +75%
Bravery +100%


XP awarded in xp box: 2,678
RXP awared in xp box: 235

Optional xp included ?


……………………..


2nd run thru same day:



Garrison's missing pack level 4 toon, first time thru:
Base xp 879
Base rxp 56

VIP (not included in this copy from xp chart) +10%
Flawless +10%
Persistence +10%
Aggression +10%


XP awarded in xp box: 1,140
RXP awared in xp box: 85 (actual rxp awarded via chat window with vip = 93

Optional xp included 144 (showing that optional ransack is going to be slow?)


………………………………………



Now I am having a little trouble making all the number line up, likely due to the optional xp.

But the 100% bravery must be applied to this dungeon.

So, whoever is claiming that rxp is not gaining bravery needs to relook at their numbers at least on the test server.
Will try to get more numbers as time permits.

Relooking at your numbers

Old daily = 20%
New heroic = Daily +25%
New epic = Daily +30%


Old Reaper Bravery and First Time = Reaper (200%) = First time bonus (120%) + Bravery (30%) + Streak (50%)
New Reaper Bravery and First Time = 75% +100%


So we have

Old Reaper done at character level = 2 for base dungeon level = 2 with +220%

New heroic Reaper done at character level = 5 for base dungeon level = 2 with +200%

New epic Reaper done at character level = 25 for base dungeon level = 22 with +205% ??? or is it double that ???

Level cap new Reaper allows more dungeons due to farming up to lower base level without penalties.
Level cap new Reaper gains +10% with the new daily system over previous.
So there is a big gain in level cap reaper farming in more than one way.


Also, the fact that players will be approaching the same reaper xp with a toon that is 3 levels higher in power will influence the speed and difficulty that can be applied to these dungeons.


So far I am finding the claim that this new bravery % will not be applied to rxp to be false.
Time will tell..

Durk's got a secret R1 with level 4 toon plus hires
could have approached this with a level 5 toon

First time reaper +75%
Bravery +100%
Aggression +10%
Persistent +10%
Daily playthru +25%
vip +10%
No flawless - trap got me
No optional

xp 3,704
rxp 251



…



Second run with flawless (rogue hire got trap)
no optional
rxp 93

I am not using xp potions.
I do not have tomes of exp on this toon, it is brand new.
I am on the test server, and I am pretty sure the bravery bonus pause guy is ghosted (see dev post) and does not exist.
I could go look for thus and use two different toons, (that would be the only way to confirm thus on live.)

The bravery marshal is gone from the hall of heroes test server.

Looking at my numbers on the test server, the +100% must be there otherwise the numbers would be lower.

The second run is about 1/3 of first run which indicates a loss of 200% not 100%.

On test server:


Level 19 with hires
No overlevel penalties

Rainbow in the dark on R1

Base reaper xp 98
Base xp 9,099
No optionals

Flawless +10%
Persistence +10%

Tome of learning first time completion bonus +50%
50% xp potion running
Guild buffs running +5% xp
First time reaper +75%
Bravery +100%
First daily +25%
VIP +10%



Xp window (did not have chat set to achievement/advancement

total xp awarded 31,389 xp
daily playthrough bonus 33,663 xp

total reaper xp: 471


trying the math to work it out (which I so far cannot figure perfectly)

base rxp 98
bonuses if lumped together (excluding vip which will not show in window) 325% bonus
4.25 * 98 = 416.5

quest bonuses lumped together = 220%
3.20 * 98 = 313.6
exterior bonuses lumped together (excluding vip) = 105%
2.05 * 313.6 = 642.8

Obviously both of these are wrong.


Let us see if bravery removed and lumped all yields a close number
3.35 * 98 = 328.3 additive all %

1.20 * 98 = 215.6
2.05 * 215.6 = 441.98 multiplicative all %

These also are wrong but the last one is close.
But I don't think percentages would be multiplicatively applied.



…. 2nd run thru

+20 tome of learning
+10 persistence
+10 flawless
+5 ship
+50 xp potion
+5 vip

base reaper 98
reaper xp box 163 xp
reaper chat: 89+16=268

Going by your garrisons run... 235/56= 4.2 so you are getting a 320% boost. So we just have to work that out. I only see 200 from the above quote +10+10+10 From the in quest bonus + daily run bonus. It doesn't add up. We just need to figure it out.

When I get home I'll go run it on live and see what it gives.

Thanks!

[Fedora1]

It seems that if you want to get people to run a wider variety of quests, you could do things like update the older named loot, add teleporters to quests that are way out, add tokens of the twelve to more quests, update loot and drop rates of Scroll/Seal/Shard variety, reduce flagging requirements for some of the older content, etc.

By all means, increase the xp on the quests that need it (some need WAY more than 20%), and make the changes to reaper level runs, etc.

Then all you have left is to change the opt xp in maybe TWO quests rather than change the whole system for the worse.

[Cantor]

My test server figures, along with flaw and confusion in figuring out this new system:
Pardon there were not more.
I could not copy my main (guild leader).

I think this one, I stepped in, killed 10 monsters then looked at the xp report.
This level 19 toon has Greater tome and 50% pot on this toon, vip

This one stepped in killed 10 monters and looked at xp report I think.
The level four toons have No tomes, no xp pots, vip

Thanks!

There might be enough data with what you completed to figure out what is going on. At least we can compare to live and see if it's a nerf or not. If the only change actually affecting it is the daily increase then it's a buff.

Thank you.

Please tell me you had a lesser tome of learning on the garrison run... that makes it work.
4.20/1.1= 3.8
Minus base is 280. 200 first time plus 10+10+10 in quest +25 daily +25 tome adds up.
I checked against your second garrisons and it is consistent if you have the tome. Yeah, I think we have it figured out.

[Haphazarduk]

The main concern I have is that it becomes easier, not harder to get on the reaper ladder.

At the moment the game is designed in such away that the gap between hardcore players and others is ever expanding. You get more reaper points you get tougher you do higher skulls you get more points and the gap between me and you gets bigger. I try to lead groups on elite or sometimes even R1 but most players are well beyond that already Even in the last year the average difficulty seems to have crept up to R3/4. If I do joing a group like that I generally eat their Rez scrolls

We need something that allows more grouping across difficulty. Don't suppose we could do scaled damage based on PLs and Reaper points? Mixed ability groups (or any at all) would be ace.

Hap












Thanks![/QUOTE]

[Talam]

to encourage more variety in the quests people play, would it perhaps be feasible to implement a special "quest of the day" every day that gives a hefty +50% xp bonus on first completion (in addition to any daily or other bonuses)?

If a different quest got this bonus every single day, and if it the quest was listed on the login screen, that would surely result in a wider selection of quests being run.

excellent idea!

[Rull]

The main concern I have is that it becomes easier, not harder to get on the reaper ladder.

At the moment the game is designed in such away that the gap between hardcore players and others is ever expanding. You get more reaper points you get tougher you do higher skulls you get more points and the gap between me and you gets bigger. I try to lead groups on elite or sometimes even R1 but most players are well beyond that already Even in the last year the average difficulty seems to have crept up to R3/4. If I do joing a group like that I generally eat their Rez scrolls

We need something that allows more grouping across difficulty. Don't suppose we could do scaled damage based on PLs and Reaper points? Mixed ability groups (or any at all) would be ace.

First life grouping bonus, where a group of level 8's (doing a level 6 quest on reaper) can take a level10 first-lifer along without incurring a penalty.