Multi-Patch/Update Preview: XP Changes

[karatemack]

If the Devs are recoding optionals, then it would be wise to consider:

1) renaming options to something else

2) awarding thus upon quest completion

3) making some sort of standard for optional xp which is generous but not too powerful

4) making ransack reduced by no more than 5% per time

5) stopping ransack at 25%

6) figuring out some sort of new Epic TR that if you are not on an iconic life, returns you to level 20 with all completions and flagging reset

I really like your concept here. If I understand correctly, there would be a new XP modifier called "Optionals Completed" (or whatever they rename it to) and as a percentage of the optionals in the quest are finished the players gain more XP bonus?

This would work similarly to conquest, ransack and ingenious debilitation bonuses... so quests with more optionals take longer to scale up to 25(30?)% for the full bonus?

It sounds like an interesting way to re-work optional XP to remain relevant while removing some of the less-desirable behaviors the dev team want to eliminate. A far better solution than the current plan.

[Deslen]

Full disclosure, I have not read every reply on this thread.

Changing reaper under/over level to match Bravery Bonus worries me. I fully understand the confusion the current system causes, but making them match will have a SERIOUS detrimental effect on what you're trying to achieve with the xp changes.

The reason is simple. Old Bravery Bonus method, before reaper came out? Us vets almost NEVER ran quests level 17-19. There was no point. Keep a level banked, by the time you're 18 banking 19 you're only running level 16 quests. Finish Vale quests, take 19 and 20, reincarnate or move on to epics. I don't miss that. It will come back if you make reaper match bravery bonus.

[Xgya]

I just want to confirm that the total number of quests needed to be run to reach a certain level won't change for someone that was already only running quests a single time and leaving for more fun elsewhere)

I also need someone to clarify what "100% of bravery bonus" means.
Bravery originally applied to the first time you did the quest. Now, if you do it on Hard, then Elite, you'll get part of the bravery bonus applied both times?
What about people that run normal, hard, elite (you know, people without VIP or past lives)? Will they get a bravery bonus applied?
Is that bravery bonus resetting for Epic now?

[John3000]

The only thing that will be worse is optionals assuming you have already run that particular quest many times since your last heroic, racial, or iconic TR.
...
It makes running content that you have run 10 times before worse than it is now. It increases the motivation to run everything several times rather than 10 quests countless times.

No one should be forced to redo heroics if they enjoy staying in Epics, nor should they be forced to play quests they don't enjoy. Reseting ransack+bonus flags on ETR is a minimum and it shouldn't be that hard for the devs to do. Increasing low XP quests to be on par with top earning quests should be enough to encourage more to run them without having to resort to a "no more than once" xp or optionals nerf stick.

And sure, some people will leave. Some people leave in protest after every update. Then they either come back or they don't.

More options = more ways to play = more people happy = a longer lifespan for this game. If people enjoy playing a quest only once and doing heroic TRs then that's fine. But why hurt people that enjoy staying in Epics ? There's no need to force people out of this game.

The server population data from ddoracle.com/images/serverLoadAllYears.big.png over multiple years before 2015 clearly shows the decaying trend. The more this game increases the XP grind, the more it discourages new players. The xp and power gap between a new player and a +130 lives + reaper completionist is crazy. Until that is adressed, SSG will have a hard time reversing the trend. And reversing this trend is probably the best way you'll have of filling up your LFMs.

Cheers

[erethizon]

Which is utter sadness. Heroics at normal level on reaper was already mostly zerg. Going +2 or even +3 is just silly. Clearly a huge step in the wrong direction imho. Making reaper at level rather than at level+2 did so much good for the heroic game, pugs included.

It was good for those of us that were already powerful. It can be difficult to remember back that far, but I do remember my first life character. I was lucky enough to always play with my girlfriend (so I was never playing solo) and we always put up an LFM (which usually filled back then because I played a cleric and that meant something back before epics existed and people needed healing). The game was tough for a first life character. Sure I think of R1 as relatively easy now, but for new people it is very, very difficult.

Reaper is the new normal. If you join a party it is probably going to be on reaper. As a new player you better get used to playing reaper (and start earning those badly needed reaper points) or you are going to struggle. This change is extremely welcome, not only because grouping will be easier (as you will no longer have some people playing 2 levels above base quest level while others play at base quest level), but also because newer players that need to catch up on reaper points will have a chance to play reaper more effectively. The sooner new players can get into the reaper grind the better off they will be. It takes many lives to get enough reaper points to start to see a difference. Those of us that find Reaper 1 too easy when 3 levels above the quest can also go with a higher reaper setting. But those that find R1 too difficult can't go any lower without giving up all reaper experience which they will eventually need.

The grouping thing is a big deal. I cannot tell you how many times I have seen a heroic LFM for exactly the quest I want to run but it is being run by 2 people that are 2 levels above base level for the quest (running R1 for full regular experience but half Reaper experience) and so I post an LFM for exactly the same quest at level (since I am 2 levels below the leader and want full Reaper experience). So we both end up running the quest with two people (as I usually find at least one person to join me, but can solo most heroics if not) rather than all teaming up, which would be more fun for all of us. I want to join their party. I just don't want to halve the reaper experience I am getting. This change is most welcome.

[Shadow_Jumper]

4. Move some of the XP from the First time bonus, which is per difficulty, to the Bravery bonus.

It is not our goal to increase outgoing XP; to pay for the above increases we plan on lowering the First time bonus per difficulty.

Normal difficulty will decrease from 25% to 10%.
Hard difficulty will decrease from 40% to 20%.
Elite difficulty will decrease from 80% to 45%.
Reaper difficulty will decrease from 120% to 75%.

What does this mean:
~ On Normal, Hard, and Elite the first time through a Heroic dungeon including the daily bonus will be the same as it is on live. The first time through Epic dungeons will actually give slightly more XP.
~ This makes the practice of repeating dungeons on each difficulty less attractive than finding a new dungeon.

Bravery Bonuses do not apply to reaper xp. This will be a significant nerf to players who use first time bonuses (either at cap or on the train) to gain the majority of their rxp instead of staying at cap. What changes do the devs have in mind (if any) to offset the loss of first time bonuses?

[erethizon]

I agree. We're headed back to level 17+ quests never being run. I have a path now which includes the es sagas. This change may mean that it will be more efficient to run lower level stuff instead.

That said the mismatch between reaper and bb has been tough on grouping.

The game is currently structured so that if you run every single non-epic quest (meaning every single non-raid quest that has a base level of 1 to 19, but has no epic option) on Reaper 1 you will get the 3.8 million experience you need to get to level 20. I do this every single life. I save all the quests that have an epic option for epic levels and do all the heroic only quests as I go from 1 to 20.

This update is not going to change that. I will still be running Reign of Madness, Restless Isles, everything in the Inspired Quarter (including Demon's Den), and the Devils of Shav pack. What this will change is when I will be able to start inviting level 19's. Currently I run most quests with less than a full group including Vale quests (which was unheard of in the past). Having to run Vale with a level 16 cap results in many people not joining because (and these are there words), "I am saving Vale for when I get higher because I don't want to get stuck repeating quests since there is not enough experience left."

I don't know if these people are just stuck in the past (I remember the terrible Vale grinding to get to 20 because there was not enough experience without repeating quests many times) or whether they just don't know how quick and easy it is to get to 20 even if you never run a quest with an epic option. But with this change my groups for quests below level 18 will fill faster than ever. Being able to invite level 18's (since many people hold level 19) will make running the level 15 through 17 quests so much faster because groups will fill more quickly.

The quests above level 17 are actually some of the most popular. I struggle to fill for most chains but I have no trouble at all filling the Devil's of Shav pack every life. The fact that it allows for level 19 characters even under the current rules makes it easy to fill. The more quest packs that allow all high level heroic characters to be grouped together the easier grouping will be.

[SiliconScout]

It was good for those of us that were already powerful. It can be difficult to remember back that far, but I do remember my first life character. I was lucky enough to always play with my girlfriend (so I was never playing solo) and we always put up an LFM (which usually filled back then because I played a cleric and that meant something back before epics existed and people needed healing). The game was tough for a first life character. Sure I think of R1 as relatively easy now, but for new people it is very, very difficult.

Reaper is the new normal. If you join a party it is probably going to be on reaper. As a new player you better get used to playing reaper (and start earning those badly needed reaper points) or you are going to struggle. This change is extremely welcome, not only because grouping will be easier (as you will no longer have some people playing 2 levels above base quest level while others play at base quest level), but also because newer players that need to catch up on reaper points will have a chance to play reaper more effectively. The sooner new players can get into the reaper grind the better off they will be. It takes many lives to get enough reaper points to start to see a difference. Those of us that find Reaper 1 too easy when 3 levels above the quest can also go with a higher reaper setting. But those that find R1 too difficult can't go any lower without giving up all reaper experience which they will eventually need.

The grouping thing is a big deal. I cannot tell you how many times I have seen a heroic LFM for exactly the quest I want to run but it is being run by 2 people that are 2 levels above base level for the quest (running R1 for full regular experience but half Reaper experience) and so I post an LFM for exactly the same quest at level (since I am 2 levels below the leader and want full Reaper experience). So we both end up running the quest with two people (as I usually find at least one person to join me, but can solo most heroics if not) rather than all teaming up, which would be more fun for all of us. I want to join their party. I just don't want to halve the reaper experience I am getting. This change is most welcome.

Realistically, if I read these changes correctly, you won't find nearly as many people running Reaper. If you are playing "end game" sure you might be running Reaper but if you are just leveling for TR's then Elite offers more experience and an lot easier run. No point in running the reaper if all you want is the XP.

Many of these changes are good, don't get me wrong, but making it harder for players without reaper points to gain them AND offering them less XP while doing so is just a bad idea.

Never mind the ransack silliness that they are adding, I expect we will lose more players than we gain/retain over these changes if they are implemented as advertised.

[SiliconScout]

This 1000 times. Reaper has its own rewards, it should not give more xp than Elite.

I am OK with this, it also shouldn't give less IMHO. If it was the same as Elite that would probably be best. The current suggestion makes it worth LESS XP than Elite so Elite is the new META / Defacto standard for anyone who doesn't already have the reaper points.

So once again the haves have the the havenots fall farther behind. It's like they don't even play their game or understand how the players play.

[erethizon]

I'm not really concerned about the overall difficulty but the disconnect between quest level and player level is getting silly.

When doing Red Fens on elite at (+3) you'd be level 12 and you would be getting level 7 items.
Gearing 'as you go' becomes worse, widening the gap between new players and TRs.

Currently we have the opposite problem. Sure, named items in Red Fens are level 7, but all the random loot you get as end rewards are level 11 to 13 (yet you are level 9 since you are playing for max reaper experience). I experience this problem every life. I don't keep a set of low level gear (mainly because of storage concerns), thus when I start a new character and am at low levels I am constantly look at the end reward list for gear I can wear. As I run the level 2 harbor quests on R1 my end rewards are for items that have a minimum level of 4 to 6. I end up picking rewards and storing them for many levels because I can't actually wear them.

This update will fix that problem nicely. Named items may not work, but most of them are terrible anyway (since most were never updated). Random loot from end rewards (which is where I get most low level gear because I get to choose from a list rather than getting a random item in a chest) will be much more useful now.

[mikarddo]

It was good for those of us that were already powerful. It can be difficult to remember back that far, but I do remember my first life character. I was lucky enough to always play with my girlfriend (so I was never playing solo) and we always put up an LFM (which usually filled back then because I played a cleric and that meant something back before epics existed and people needed healing). The game was tough for a first life character. Sure I think of R1 as relatively easy now, but for new people it is very, very difficult.

Reaper is the new normal. If you join a party it is probably going to be on reaper. As a new player you better get used to playing reaper (and start earning those badly needed reaper points) or you are going to struggle. This change is extremely welcome, not only because grouping will be easier (as you will no longer have some people playing 2 levels above base quest level while others play at base quest level), but also because newer players that need to catch up on reaper points will have a chance to play reaper more effectively. The sooner new players can get into the reaper grind the better off they will be. It takes many lives to get enough reaper points to start to see a difference. Those of us that find Reaper 1 too easy when 3 levels above the quest can also go with a higher reaper setting. But those that find R1 too difficult can't go any lower without giving up all reaper experience which they will eventually need.

The grouping thing is a big deal. I cannot tell you how many times I have seen a heroic LFM for exactly the quest I want to run but it is being run by 2 people that are 2 levels above base level for the quest (running R1 for full regular experience but half Reaper experience) and so I post an LFM for exactly the same quest at level (since I am 2 levels below the leader and want full Reaper experience). So we both end up running the quest with two people (as I usually find at least one person to join me, but can solo most heroics if not) rather than all teaming up, which would be more fun for all of us. I want to join their party. I just don't want to halve the reaper experience I am getting. This change is most welcome.

We agree some of the way here as I have been in situations similar to the ones you discribe. Infact, it sounds like we are currently in about the same state.

However, I draw a rather different conclusion. Currently, I often throw up a LFM figuring it might help with the quest more than it might slow me/us down. If I can run +2 or +3 at the same level of Reaper I would be less likely to bother with the LFM as I was already doing the quest at max speed. If I instead up the R from say R2 to R4 due to being higher level the LFM would probably also be higher level, say 16-18 instead of 14-16 for Wheloon thus not adding more grouping.

Overall, I expect such a change to create fewer rather than more groups but only time will tell.

[SiliconScout]

Announce xp nerf —-> put ottos boxes on sale. Smooth.

And I refuse to believe an accident.

I assume they are smart people and take the due diligence to do the analysis. Therefore they would know these changes are a detrimental to the "player experience" but beneficial to their bottom line ASSUMING that they sell more pots and stones which I expect is the purpose.

However, for me, it's made me annoyed enough, maybe even a little angry, that I sure as hell won't be spending DP on them. Sure I'll spend the fee points I earn but you aren't going to get a penny out of me to get around the grind you keep adding to bleed me out.

I don't mind spending money to support a game that I enjoy playing but as you bleed my enjoyment out I stop spending the money.

[erethizon]

While you are looking at xp.

2) Remake the epic xp curve. Lower the first 9 levels by 100k each adding those 900k to level 30.
This means much more time to enjoy level 28 and 29 gear during an epic life.

This is a seriously good idea.

[mikarddo]

This is a seriously good idea.

Unfortunately, they did the opposite some years ago. Lower epic levels used to be much less xp.

[monsoon22]

This one item is almost schizophrenic. On the one hand mechanics are implemented that demand insane amounts of farming, looking at you Slave Lords 5 piece sets to name just one, and the other devs are getting their panties in a bunch because players rerun quests too much in their opinion. Personally I am sick of rerunning SL, I often just stare at the ceiling at the entrance not able to bring myself to click on the portal and often just end up logging off even though with ~ 16 toons and periodic new gear I am not even close to having all the SL gear I need as filler in the borked up equipment sets. But I have gone from loving the stream to despising it as do everyone I regularly run with. Mention running it and there is silence until someone comes up with another idea. Not to mention running Ravenloft both for the xp and sword food while leveling. This change will effectively gut the xp in virtually the entire pack (Amber and Tea Party are particularly dependent on options to make them worth while) as far as xp is concerned. So basically, you want us to run quests with worthless gear not even good for sword food like tired old ES chain for xp, OR run quest for useful items and no xp, but omg don't do both. (Not mentioning that even ES is loaded with optionals that contribute to even it's pathetic xp.)

And I haven't even mentioned the soul sucking grind which is the hallmark of the DDO endgame, TR'ing, but that is so well known as shown by the other posts that I will just add my support to their statements that point out how you are just kicking us in the nuts if we don't get the xp the way YOU want us too. Because obviously packing off a couple hundred k of xp on a build I didn't want in the first place before switching to another toon to do what I do want so I can at least keep progressing is obviously being exploitive in your books. Perhaps you people should sit down and decide how you want us to play your game since despite what you say, us deciding on our own what we want to do seems to put you devs into apoplectic shock. If you don't want us grinding STOP putting grinds in the game, or how about not punishing us for grinding. Pick one please. At least we can make an informed decision on whether the game is worth putting our time and money into it.

[hp1055cm]

The following quests will have their XP lowered.

The following quests will have a MAJOR increase (10-20%) to their XP:

Please bump the XP in Druid Chain.

Please don't nerf Von 3 xp again... It is a nice bump in heroics and it is a tough quest at level.
Besides Shadow crypt is now the king of xp at 9 and if you think you have to flag to run it you haven't been paying attention.

Chains of Flame needs a Major boost to xp.

There needs to be a better relationship between quest difficulty and xp - not just how long it takes to run. Most quests have short cuts anyway.

______
Reaper xp: I have been running Reaper at level for over a year, and NOW I can run 2 levels over... can you say easy?
Reaper will need an overhaul soon... and newer rewards.

[Elearim]

One thing about the late underwhelming lfm experience is the loss of players. While im in a max level guild we are quite few aktive players.most quit the game and only about 12 players are still around.I really enjoy it,when i can group up with a guild mate,but that is quite rare for ppl beeing on different lvl due to different time bases they can play. We all have jobs and familys which bring a big divergence in our time base.

That all said i think the player base is to small to allow an XP nerf on any working playstyle as long as you dont start merging servers to get more player on a single server and by that automatically increase the number of lfms. When you are a (semi-)casual player and only have a few hours to play,you might wanna run a fast daylie instead of waiting to fill an lfm for the more challenging quests and run out of time while waiting to fill for your 1st time run at level.

In my experience that is the most important reason next to the afforementioned XP per time which should be addressed by increasing XP on rare completed quests instead of decreasing XP on often completed ones those seem to work fine.

sers

[HouseAtreides]

And I haven't even mentioned the soul sucking grind which is the hallmark of the DDO endgame, TR'ing, but that is so well known as shown by the other posts that I will just add my support to their statements that point out how you are just kicking us in the nuts if we don't get the xp the way YOU want us too.

They will never, ever acknowledge how deeply TRing has damaged moral in the game. Every guild that dies and every player that leaves that I know tells me they're just tired of the ENDLESS SLOG of past lives in order to max literally anything about a character.

Wanna start an alt? Get ready to grind 1.6 BILLION GD XP, loser.

[Sho-sa]

For Pete's sake look at the good quests and emulate those in terms of XP and content. Look at the bad quests and FIX them!

Don't punish us for enjoying the good quests and don't try to force us to suffer through the bad ones while telling us how we SHOULD enjoy the game.

It looks like the Devs read Harrison Bergeron by Kurt Vonnegut and thought it was a promoting a good idea.

The problem with Socialism is that eventually you run out of other people's XP.

[Captain_Wizbang]

They will never, ever acknowledge how deeply TRing has damaged moral in the game.

+1

IF the PL power creep wasn't put into every update, TR's could have been good for the game.

Maybe ONE skill point, or 1/2 AP per life. but not this hamster wheel we have.

Reaper enhancement trees and PL power creep have driven more players away than they will admit to.