Multi-Patch/Update Preview: XP Changes

[Cantor]

With regard to optionals XP, two quests come to mind as having a lot of XP from optionals: Wizard King and Devil Assault.

What they have in common:
Back in the old days, these were both challenging. Party wipes on tougher difficulties weren't uncommon. Both of these quests would push you as far as you could, and would reward you with optional XP at various stages during the quest. If you wiped, you had received some decent XP for what you were able to complete.

The differences:

Devil Assault -
This one is repeated on EN for Tokens of the Twelve, simply because too few quests give these, which is an entirely different subject. Devil Assault is not run as an "XP grind" daily. Why? Because of the time gates built into it. Players have to wait for a while between waves, and can't simply zerg through it to grab all of its XP quickly.

Wizard King -
This seems to be "public enemy #1" on the "XP grind" dailies list - especially due to optional XP. Why? Because power creep allows one or two players to complete each tower simultaneously, causing XP to rain down on players like candy from a busted pinata. In the old days, we slogged through one tower at a time because soloing a tower was suicide - the quest's time gate was the difficulty. Returning to DDO in 2018, I'm shocked at how easy Wizard King is now, and I just have mediocre gear and no PLs. I can leave mummy rot on because it doesn't really do much in epics, and traps can simply be walked through. Perhaps dungeon scaling isn't programmed into Wizard King? Giving some of the red names the ability to throw Disjunction, Horrid Wilting, and a way to drain our spellpoints would make things fun and interesting!

Fixing old quests like Wizard King by modernizing their difficulty to challenge players is more favorable than nerfing XP. If the goal is to reduce the XP per minute payout of these quests to bring them on par with others, increase the minutes instead of reducing the XP. I'd rather be challenged for 20 minutes and really earn the XP, rather than having to spend 10 minutes in a mindless walkthrough which hands me half the amount of XP.

Ha. You think there is outrage over a base xp nerf. If you upgraded difficulty to modern levels the outrage of I quits would be over the top. How often are there posts of new content is too hard, I cant run elite/reaper on this like I can old stuff, etc. If you brought everything up to mines/toee/slaver level difficulty the xp/min would be much worse even if they threw in a base increase. The cries of my only way to get tokens is gone... I hear it now.

Then again it's two completely different games because it's played two ways. Streak to 30 on r1 vs grind the same stuff on normal or hard.

[Feal]

another consideration/solution about the rpx topic related to 1st timers and bb..

a possibility is to switch the change. I mean, instead of lowering 1st time bonus and raising bb, inscrease 1st time bonus and lower bb.

The removal of pause and non pause is very nice, but another solution is to leave things as they are regarding 1st time bonus and bb, and just implement the good ideas, and fixing the xp of the quests that need it

[justsomeguy999]

Is it an intended result of the changes that players are heavily penalized for running quests in epics that they have already run in heroics? Shifting a large amount of xp from first-time to bravery means that content with both heroic and epic variants are much less rewarding in epics if you run them in heroics. This seems somewhat counter to the expressed goals of the changes, as running a chain once at level ~6 for bravery, then again in epics without immediate repeats or daily runs seems like the kind of pattern that is intended. There aren't that many epic quests without heroic equivalents, so as written people will need to be much more careful about what they run in heroics so as to not slow down their epic leveling.

[Iriale]

I am not using xp potions.
I do not have tomes of exp on this toon, it is brand new.
I am on the test server, and I am pretty sure the bravery bonus pause guy is ghosted (see dev post) and does not exist.
I could go look for thus and use two different toons, (that would be the only way to confirm thus on live.)

The bravery marshal is gone from the hall of heroes test server.

Looking at my numbers on the test server, the +100% must be there otherwise the numbers would be lower.

The second run is about 1/3 of first run which indicates a loss of 200% not 100%.

people are skeptical, and have reason to be, silver. When the devs created reaper they told us that BB would affect reaper. In the tests of Lamma, BB affected reaper. And then, at some point, I don't know if when the update get to the live servers or shortly after, they nerf that. The truth is that the BB does not affect the reaper experience in live, and people fear a ninja nerf like the one we had when they first took reaper.

The ninja nerfs and the lack of transparency of the devs irreversibly damages consumer confidence, silver. They need to be much more sincere if they want to recover it.

[Iriale]

I hope the devs are paying attention to this thread, and I mean REALLY paying attention. Because not only is there a near-unanimous outpouring of dissatisfaction with the ransack changes, it's opening the door to a significant amount of expressed frustration and unhappiness with the level of grind that has been put into the game. It really is reaching a breaking point, and I hope the devs start to take it seriously (instead of adding more and more PLs and other grind to the game) and restructure the things that really need it.

They should pay attention, but they won't, ana. It is the reason why they have created these new epics PLs with no reason, since there is no new content associated. They have only put them to sell xp pots and boxes of otto, and as people buy them, they will not leave that vicious dynamic. Although they are cannibalizing the game in the process. They will focus on grind-loving whales willing to pay anything to have a superman toon, and they will forget all other consumers. Many of us have reached a breaking point, but devs are no longer interested in consumers like you or me. They are only interested in grind lovers.

[Whaldorf]

I am looking forward to some answers and clarifications once the office opens again after the weekend.

1) Is it intended that first time completions on reaper give less regular xp than om live?
.
2) Is it intended that BB is no longer limited to base quest level +2? If yes, is there a new limitation?

3) Does the 100% BB apply to rxp? If not is it intended that rxp on first time completions within BB range is significantly lowered due to the first time bonus bring much lower?

4) Could ETR atleast be made to reset the otherwise permanent ransack of optionals?

5) Will more sources of Tokens of the Twelve be added to further promote running a diversity of quests since rerunning the quests that currently drop them is being made worse xp. Terminal Delirium and other epic quests in or around the Twelve come to mind as prime candidates.

6) Do you think adding 10% xp to Tower of Frost is enough?

+1

Thank you for nicely summarizing the questions that have been popping up throughout this thread. Giving it a bump up so that it posts multiple times and has a higher chance of being noticed when they do log on this morning.

Everyone commenting on this thread I think would very much like a response to these questions.

[Caarb]

They should pay attention, but they won't, ana. It is the reason why they have created these new epics PLs with no reason, since there is no new content associated. They have only put them to sell xp pots and boxes of otto, and as people buy them, they will not leave that vicious dynamic. Although they are cannibalizing the game in the process. They will focus on grind-loving whales willing to pay anything to have a superman toon, and they will forget all other consumers. Many of us have reached a breaking point, but devs are no longer interested in consumers like you or me. They are only interested in grind lovers.

Adding new grinds is good and healthy for the game. The issue is they have not added ways for newer players (or alts) to catch up on old grinds.

[Iriale]

Adding new grinds is good and healthy for the game. The issue is they have not added ways for newer players (or alts) to catch up on old grinds.

all mmo is based on the grind, but this is only beneficial when it does not exceed a certain level, and we have exceeded and saturated that level by far. A mmo as a ddo would have been more successful if they had diversified the grind sources, instead of focusing them all on the TRs. Devs could have created challenge grinds with appropriate rewards for people who like that style of play, and maintained a vibrant end game with raids and special quests without eliminating (but also not exclusively turning over) the TR system. But not, they have bet everything on the grind of experience of the TRs, and now we reap the fruit of that decision, including a declining population, because the devs have decided to please only a sector of their consumers, and that leads to all those who feel abandoned or not represented leave the game.

More of the same to a repetitive and nauseating excess, is NOT good for the game. Grinds of varied nature to please and attract more than one group of players, they are. Because they lead to larger populations and therefore more consumers.

[Silverleafeon]

people are skeptical, and have reason to be, silver. When the devs created reaper they told us that BB would affect reaper. In the tests of Lamma, BB affected reaper. And then, at some point, I don't know if when the update get to the live servers or shortly after, they nerf that. The truth is that the BB does not affect the reaper experience in live, and people fear a ninja nerf like the one we had when they first took reaper.

The ninja nerfs and the lack of transparency of the devs irreversibly damages consumer confidence, silver. They need to be much more sincere if they want to recover it.

We really need a full break down from the Devs how to calculate reaper experience and a full break down of what applies, along with assurances that anything otherwise is a bug that will be fixed if broken.

[HungarianRhapsody]

all mmo is based on the grind, but this is only beneficial when it does not exceed a certain level, and we have exceeded and saturated that level by far. A mmo as a ddo would have been more successful if they had diversified the grind sources, instead of focusing them all on the TRs. Devs could have created challenge grinds with appropriate rewards for people who like that style of play, and maintained a vibrant end game with raids and special quests without eliminating (but also not exclusively turning over) the TR system. But not, they have bet everything on the grind of experience of the TRs, and now we reap the fruit of that decision, including a declining population, because the devs have decided to please only a sector of their consumers, and that leads to all those who feel abandoned or not represented leave the game.

More of the same to a repetitive and nauseating excess, is NOT good for the game. Grinds of varied nature to please and attract more than one group of players, they are. Because they lead to larger populations and therefore more consumers.

Oh my goodness. So much this.

Having a grind where the first half of the grind gives the most benefit and then the remainder gives the last little bit is something that lets people grind some and feel progress while the people who need ALL THE BONUSES can finish the grind.

Heck, just swapping the benefits of the #1 and #3 racial lives would go a long way toward fixing that. But that's exactly the opposite of what SSG is aiming for currently. "WHALES ONLY. EVERYONE ELSE, GTFO."

[Zakharov]

5. Optional objectives will ransack, and that ransack will not reset over time; they are essentially being changed to a play-through bonus with ransack that only resets with a Racial, True and Iconic Reincarnations. To compensate, optional objectives will ransack more slowly. With this change we can add more, or make more of them have greater rewards. Note: the reduced rate at which optional objectives ransack has not yet been changed on the test server.

What about players who stay at cap and never TR? Or are done with heroic lives and want to run 20 epic lives in a row? Won't this then be a reduction in overall XP even if they switch quests as optimally as you would like?

Quest XP used to ransack and never recover, it was horrible. Thank goodness you changed it before, this is a step backwards. Surely there are better ways to deal with whatever problem this is fixing.

[Silverleafeon]

Last I checked, doing optionals was supposed to increase rxp.
How will these changes impact thus?

[HungarianRhapsody]

Last I checked, doing optionals was supposed to increase rxp.
How will these changes impact thus?

Is that currently true on Live?

I've never seen any indication that doing optionals increased RXP. I mean, other than the fact that doing optionals will sometimes get you closer to Conquest/Ransack/etc. bonuses in the quest.

[Silverleafeon]

I could have predicted the appearance of Otto's Boxes in the store given the appearance of the rare triple bonus points sale recently.
One follows the other, and has for years.

Otto's Boxes do not add to rxp, and thereby are fairly useless to players seeking to build strong toons.
Given that players actually reincarnate with no past life bonuses, rxp is far more important than past lives.
However, using a few Otto's boxes to jump start a new toon could make sense on say life 3, 4, & 5 possibly to avoid some sort of less desirable playstyle.

The main concern for me in this change is rxp, and players seeking tons of past lives might realize when they have thus that their concern should have been the same?

[Silverleafeon]

Is that currently true on Live?

I've never seen any indication that doing optionals increased RXP. I mean, other than the fact that doing optionals will sometimes get you closer to Conquest/Ransack/etc. bonuses in the quest.

I'm 95% sure it did when we first started having reaper, I have not checked lately.
It was supposed to and seemed too.
That was the philosophy when reaper appeared.
I could be wrong on this point.

Could we have a Dev to clarify this point.

Could we PLEASE have a Dev to tell us what does and does not affect reaper xp.
PLEASE, something this important ought to have the facts and figures laid out.

[Silverleafeon]

Sounds like maybe several of my assumptions were changed over time/concept or I was simply confused about reaper xp?

EI: bravery, optionals


Again, we do need some strong Dev explanations on the matter.
I don't mind waiting till they meet, research, prepare, ect…
But I do really want the Devs to explain reaper experience in great detail along with plans for the future.




Don't mean to be pay to win, but Otto's is so outdate.
If the Devs want to pay to win, rxp would need to be included.
50% pots (I used 30% or none) are so much better now.

[LightBear]

Last time I ran a level by level comparison of number of quests and base xp there was a shortage of xp between the levels 15 and 20.
(If you remove raids from the equation the picture becomes dramatic at a few levels!)

There have been added a portion of level 15 quests in the meantime, still the xp per quest remains on the very low side on that level.
But the whole push for "End-game" has not benefited this situation, a similar thing exists in the levels 24 to 29.

For both heroic and epic there is a spike of # quests right after that level range (so 21/22 and 30/31).

My solution would be to upp the saga xp by a brand spanking amount of whoopas and come up for sagas for each and every quest in the game, esp the older content.

[SirValentine]

i said that before and i will say again, reaper should NOT give more exp over elite, that promotes REAPER as the ONLY USED difficoulty for leveling, and as such forces EVERYONE to run reaper either they are ready for or want to OR NOT, we are at the point where its either you do reaper or you play alone. i had people who apparently cant read leave party after joining because they thought its a reaper run, reaper should be optional difficoulty for those who want to feel challenged nothing more.

/signed, +1, et cetera

[Dragavon]

I'm 95% sure it did when we first started having reaper, I have not checked lately.
It was supposed to and seemed too.
That was the philosophy when reaper appeared.
I could be wrong on this point.

Could we have a Dev to clarify this point.

Could we PLEASE have a Dev to tell us what does and does not affect reaper xp.
PLEASE, something this important ought to have the facts and figures laid out.

Only things that was a bonus to base XP of a quest increase reaper XP.

That is ransack, conquest, ingenious and first time bonus. Nothing else ever increased reaper XP as far as I know.

Edit: Ah, and ofc XP potions, masters voice bonus and guild bonus.

[SirValentine]

Remake the epic xp curve. Lower the first 9 levels by 100k each adding those 900k to level 30.
This means much more time to enjoy level 28 and 29 gear during an epic life.

No thank you. Having 20-23 be real levels that people actually play is not a bad thing. They used to take much less XP, and people blew by them so quick they'd out-level the tons of quests in that range. Evening out the curve like they did was an improvement that I don't want reversed.

Actually go through All quests and add appropriately more xp to those below the curve. 10-20% is a tiny increase. Many quests need 50% higher base xp and some even more to become competitive

Yes please.