Multi-Patch/Update Preview: XP Changes

[Splunge]

I just listened to a really interesting interview from Gen Con that was posted in the general discussion forum:

https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthrea...=1#post6234356

Sev mentioned that one reason they're making these changes is that they looked at the data and found that people who run the same quests over and over leave the game at a higher rate than those who don't. I'd like to point out that they may have the cause and effect relationship backwards.

When I first started playing DDO, I didn't care about xp/min at all. I tried out every class and every play style. I never used xp pots, and I didn't have tomes of learning. I just really enjoyed flower sniffing my way through all of the different quests, trying out the capabilities of the different classes and play styles, and trying to make it through challenging content.

Now that I've been playing for a while, I'm more interested in raiding and playing content at cap. I have one toon that I'm trying to build up as much as I can, and I have a few alts that I'm trying to get ready for "end game". For example, I want to try out an end game bard, so I'd at least like to get the sorc and wizard PLs (+3 evocation DC and +6 spell pen), along with maybe a few highly relevant EPLs. I still somewhat enjoy running through the content, especially the lower level heroic stuff, or I wouldn't do it, but I'm really just trying to get a few PLs then get to L30. I've joined the XP/min daily running crowd now.

Instead of leaving because they've run the same quests too many times, maybe people are running the same quests over and over because they're closer to the end of their time playing DDO and are working toward different goals. If that's the case, making it take longer to grind out PLs may be more likely to make them leave than getting them to play different quests will be in getting them to stay. Please don't punish me for playing the game the way I want to play it. I promise you that I know more about what's fun for me than you do.

[Wh070aa]

BTW: Falling of the company starts always from Managers that know BETTER than customers.

To be fair customers tend not to know what they want, and listening to them leads to power creep and pay to win. Still the modern game design is not about making things that are fun, but making things that are just fun enough so people would pay money for boosts to make the grind not as bad. That is just how it works now.

Still these changes add entire additional run of the quest to get same XP as before. Combined with lack of endgame content, this will really newer, or returning players who can't do the new quests because of lack of skill, gear and past lifes, and are not running stuff on reaper.

This rebalancing around Reaper being the normal difficulty is ridiculous.

[Talon_Dragonsbane]

You have to run the quest down 4 different paths. Each of those paths have different optionals so they won't ransack each other.

Yes the optionals don't ransack each other but you still get less xp. It was possible to go REHN and get some value, but now overall quest xp goes down by 10% and first-time bonus at each difficulty goes down significantly.

You can't just ignore all the other proposed changes in this overhaul of xp changes.

[LeslieWest_GuitarGod]

Bad design here folks. Messing with the XP curve is just not good politics in today's DDO.

Why not sell it as alternating XP BONUSES each week. It will give you an opportunity to add more LORE to the series and get people excited to run it by stoking some OLD SCHOOL fires. And think of the marketing tie ins to packs for those that are not VIP!!! THAT is how you sell a hamburger on Tuesday!

1. A "Pack of the Week" +25% XP bonus for first-time play, and +5% for consecutive runs.

2."Quest of the Week" or "Quest of the Day" that offers 50% XP rewards for first-time play-through during that window.

3. LEADERBOARD with new forum section to give out special RL rewards for weekly and monthly leaders!! Free TP!! Free discount codes!!

What better way to get people to play the content you have created and has long been collecting dust.

[Grace_ana]

I just listened to a really interesting interview from Gen Con that was posted in the general discussion forum:

https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthrea...=1#post6234356

Sev mentioned that one reason they're making these changes is that they looked at the data and found that people who run the same quests over and over leave the game at a higher rate than those who don't. I'd like to point out that they may have the cause and effect relationship backwards.

When I first started playing DDO, I didn't care about xp/min at all. I tried out every class and every play style. I never used xp pots, and I didn't have tomes of learning. I just really enjoyed flower sniffing my way through all of the different quests, trying out the capabilities of the different classes and play styles, and trying to make it through challenging content.

Now that I've been playing for a while, I'm more interested in raiding and playing content at cap. I have one toon that I'm trying to build up as much as I can, and I have a few alts that I'm trying to get ready for "end game". For example, I want to try out an end game bard, so I'd at least like to get the sorc and wizard PLs (+3 evocation DC and +6 spell pen), along with maybe a few highly relevant EPLs. I still somewhat enjoy running through the content, especially the lower level heroic stuff, or I wouldn't do it, but I'm really just trying to get a few PLs then get to L30. I've joined the XP/min daily running crowd now.

Instead of leaving because they've run the same quests too many times, maybe people are running the same quests over and over because they're closer to the end of their time playing DDO and are working toward different goals. If that's the case, making it take longer to grind out PLs may be more likely to make them leave than getting them to play different quests will be in getting them to stay. Please don't punish me for playing the game the way I want to play it. I promise you that I know more about what's fun for me than you do.

I also suspect that the people that run the same quests over and over are simply trying to slog through the unbelievable grind in the game the best way they can. A lot of people have been left behind in that. At some point, you are grinding and realize that you aren't ever going to get where you want to get (and where a small subset of people are), they get discouraged, and they leave.

If that's the case - and everything I have heard from people in game and read here on the forums tells me it is - then people aren't going to just run a wider variety of quests and be happy. They'll either adjust their dailies list, or they will give up and leave earlier than they would have.

I really wish the devs would actually ask us why we do certain things and what we feel is frustrating instead of making assumptions. They don't tend to follow the path down to the actual causes. It's as if you went to the doctor and told him you didn't feel well. He says, "Well, you have a fever," and gives you Tylenol. Problem solved, right? Except...what's causing the fever? In the same way, people grinding dailies and then leaving the game burnt out isn't a problem of "too many dailies." It's ultimately a grind problem.

[Amundir]

Please change Devil's Assault so the optionals are not optionals.

I would also prefer the optional xp ransack to reset on Epic TRs.

[Drwaz99]

I just listened to a really interesting interview from Gen Con that was posted in the general discussion forum:

https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthrea...=1#post6234356

Sev mentioned that one reason they're making these changes is that they looked at the data and found that people who run the same quests over and over leave the game at a higher rate than those who don't. I'd like to point out that they may have the cause and effect relationship backwards.

When I first started playing DDO, I didn't care about xp/min at all. I tried out every class and every play style. I never used xp pots, and I didn't have tomes of learning. I just really enjoyed flower sniffing my way through all of the different quests, trying out the capabilities of the different classes and play styles, and trying to make it through challenging content.

Now that I've been playing for a while, I'm more interested in raiding and playing content at cap. I have one toon that I'm trying to build up as much as I can, and I have a few alts that I'm trying to get ready for "end game". For example, I want to try out an end game bard, so I'd at least like to get the sorc and wizard PLs (+3 evocation DC and +6 spell pen), along with maybe a few highly relevant EPLs. I still somewhat enjoy running through the content, especially the lower level heroic stuff, or I wouldn't do it, but I'm really just trying to get a few PLs then get to L30. I've joined the XP/min daily running crowd now.

Instead of leaving because they've run the same quests too many times, maybe people are running the same quests over and over because they're closer to the end of their time playing DDO and are working toward different goals. If that's the case, making it take longer to grind out PLs may be more likely to make them leave than getting them to play different quests will be in getting them to stay. Please don't punish me for playing the game the way I want to play it. I promise you that I know more about what's fun for me than you do.

Bingo. They may be looking at the data but they are probably interpreting it incorrectly.

Now it'd be nice for Sev to log back in (as he hasn't since the 30th and his last post) to give us his most current thoughts.

[0ldschool]

I would also prefer the optional xp ransack to reset on Epic TRs.

FYI, dev already stated that they are going to make this change earlier in this thread.

[Dreppo]

Didn't read the whole thread, but I'm not sure how Shadow Crypt survived unscathed. Its XP/min is far more egregious than any other quest in the game, and it's one of the few (probably the only one) that I still frequently see "farmed" in heroics. The ones that did get nerfed are nice XP/min quests for sure but not in the same ballpark as Shadow Crypt.

[Severlin]

Hey all,

We just got back from GenCon and we are catching up on player and Q/A bugs:

The math for XP has been adjusted so the XP matches live:

~ The first time bonus for normal XP earned on Reaper difficulty has been increased (in development) to 95% so the total XP is equivalent to what you earn on live.
~ The first time bonus for normal XP earned on Norma difficulty has been increased (in development) to 20% so the total XP is equivalent to what you earn on live.

Thanks,

Sev~

[Potatofasf]

If that's the case - and everything I have heard from people in game and read here on the forums tells me it is - then people aren't going to just run a wider variety of quests and be happy. They'll either adjust their dailies list, or they will give up and leave earlier than they would have.

That... My friends that left the game two years ago with me (We are 10... enough for a full Raid... I'm the only fool to comeback) that was the cause, we used to run maximum Favor possible every life to get DDOPoints (all VIPs subscribers, but DP is not enough). But, do that was tedious each life, after 10 TRs we wanted just to go through that Hamster Wheel, so we started to squeeze every EXP on Shadow Crypt, VoN3, WizKing, Sagas, Timer ByPass on Raids... till it becomes more of a chore than fun... results - WE left to play and spent elsewhere.

Like I said, I'm the only fool from 10 players to return. Imagine it each server, in almost each guild, how much players DDO has lost the last 3 to 5 years and how many they get new.

Edit...

Hey all,

We just got back from GenCon and we are catching up on player and Q/A bugs:

The math for XP has been adjusted so the XP matches live:

~ The first time bonus for normal XP earned on Reaper difficulty has been increased (in development) to 95% so the total XP is equivalent to what you earn on live.
~ The first time bonus for normal XP earned on Norma difficulty has been increased (in development) to 20% so the total XP is equivalent to what you earn on live.

Thanks,

Sev~

That is a joke, right?
And about the Optionals?

[erethizon]

I just listened to a really interesting interview from Gen Con that was posted in the general discussion forum:

https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthrea...=1#post6234356

Sev mentioned that one reason they're making these changes is that they looked at the data and found that people who run the same quests over and over leave the game at a higher rate than those who don't. I'd like to point out that they may have the cause and effect relationship backwards.

When I first started playing DDO, I didn't care about xp/min at all. I tried out every class and every play style. I never used xp pots, and I didn't have tomes of learning. I just really enjoyed flower sniffing my way through all of the different quests, trying out the capabilities of the different classes and play styles, and trying to make it through challenging content.

Now that I've been playing for a while, I'm more interested in raiding and playing content at cap. I have one toon that I'm trying to build up as much as I can, and I have a few alts that I'm trying to get ready for "end game". For example, I want to try out an end game bard, so I'd at least like to get the sorc and wizard PLs (+3 evocation DC and +6 spell pen), along with maybe a few highly relevant EPLs. I still somewhat enjoy running through the content, especially the lower level heroic stuff, or I wouldn't do it, but I'm really just trying to get a few PLs then get to L30. I've joined the XP/min daily running crowd now.

Instead of leaving because they've run the same quests too many times, maybe people are running the same quests over and over because they're closer to the end of their time playing DDO and are working toward different goals. If that's the case, making it take longer to grind out PLs may be more likely to make them leave than getting them to play different quests will be in getting them to stay. Please don't punish me for playing the game the way I want to play it. I promise you that I know more about what's fun for me than you do.

In my case they are getting it dead right. I have absolutely destroyed my own fun in past games by farming the exact same tiny area for experience for weeks at time. I get bored and hate the game and blame the developers for "making" me play in such a terrible way. I never even see 90% of the game and I blamed them for my terrible play style.

Something that DDO has done so right, which I am not above trying to get them to change as I actively seek to ruin my own fun (as many players do because our addiction gets us to act against our long-term self interests in favor of our short-term ones) is making favor require running different quests. If the goal is to earn the most favor, to get the most DDO store points, to buy more of the game, the best way to do that is to run everything exactly once. This forces variety on me and results in the game being far more enjoyable.

I tried running dailies way back when. It was terrible. It was boring and, because no favor was awarded, it felt very unsatisfying. So I stopped trying to do two ETR's at a time and just played 1 to 30 over and over. Best decision I ever made in terms of making the game more enjoyable.


I totally agree with the developers conclusion that dailies make people leave (the number of people that complain about how much they hate dailies is incredible and running them certainly isn't helping these players enjoy the game more). Doing whatever it takes to make running a variety of quests the most palatable option is a great idea. I know people will claim that they like running the same thing and don't want it changed (I was addicted to such behavior two so I know the mindset as our desire for quick progress causes us to campaign for things that ultimately ruin our fun and make us leave), but I do support the developers standing up to such claims and making variety the best choice anyway. Players cannot always see the forest for the trees. It has happened to me enough times to know that you can't be objective when you are in the middle of it (especially if you are emotionally invested as you can tell many players are from the responses they give).


Something I think they should do to encourage variety is add to the total favor rewards list. Perhaps they could add a higher favor reward (although 5000 is already pretty high so I wouldn't make it more than 5500 at the most). A good reward that comes to mind are tomes that grant an additional +1. We already get +5 tomes at 5000 favor and get +3 skill tomes for running epic sagas. At 5500 favor there could be a big list that includes all 6 of the +5 to +6 tomes, all 6 of the +6 to +7 tomes, all 6 of the +7 to +8 tomes, and all of the +3 to +4 skills tomes, and +4 to +5 skill tomes, plus all of the UMD +1, +1 to +2, and +2 to +3 tomes. Perhaps that is too much to put on a single list in which case they could just gives us a token at 5500 favor and you could trade that in for any of the above listed tomes. This would make running a variety of quests every life very tempting for far more people.

[erethizon]

1. A "Pack of the Week" +25% XP bonus for first-time play, and +5% for consecutive runs.

2."Quest of the Week" or "Quest of the Day" that offers 50% XP rewards for first-time play-through during that window.

3. LEADERBOARD with new forum section to give out special RL rewards for weekly and monthly leaders!! Free TP!! Free discount codes!!

What better way to get people to play the content you have created and has long been collecting dust.

Your green section does actually make this interesting. I don't care about the experience bonus (I get more than enough experience just getting favor) and I would want to play a quest I already played that life even if its experience were doubled. But if, in addition to the extra experience, they also gave a DDO Store Point reward, I would be quite interested in running the quest. They already give us a free item each week. How about throwing in a quest or quest pack of the week that rewards 25 DDO Store Points upon completion (limited one per account) that is separate from the favor point reward. Other than needing to keep a character at 30 to run higher level content (having the quest pack be a level 17 chain when you are level 3 would be unfortunate) it sounds like a great idea that would certainly motivate me to play the quest or quest pack of the week.

[erethizon]

That is a joke, right?
And about the Optionals?

Why would it be a joke? It completely solves the problem from everyone saying that their once-and-done reaper runs give 5% less experience as well as the problem of Normal giving less experience than it does now. No matter what difficulty you play on you can expect the same (or higher) experience payout for the first time you run the quest. That solves the biggest complaint they were having.

The optionals still need to ransack to encourage variety. Any "fix" to that would completely destroy the entire goal of the XP update.

[Xgya]

Hey all,

We just got back from GenCon and we are catching up on player and Q/A bugs:

The math for XP has been adjusted so the XP matches live:

~ The first time bonus for normal XP earned on Reaper difficulty has been increased (in development) to 95% so the total XP is equivalent to what you earn on live.
~ The first time bonus for normal XP earned on Norma difficulty has been increased (in development) to 20% so the total XP is equivalent to what you earn on live.

Thanks,

Sev~

Thanks.
Really, as long as people that were running all the quests once and then went someplace else don't get penalized, it at least looks like you're trying to achieve the objective you stated.

It would really help if you could have Heroic and Epic bravery separate from one another too, so people could experience the differences between the two modes on that same life (like, say, how much effort was put into Epic 3BC) without having to skip it in heroics to get the full epic bonus.