Ranger: Arcane Archer Changes (Early Autumn Edition)

[Qhualor]

That's irrelevant, though. The original point is that there is a ton of interesting ammo to be used in this game, but nobody ever does because the logistics of switching ammo types is prohibitively awkward.

One simple way to make it work is to have inventory sizes stack higher than 100, and offer fletching to make all ammo into returners. This was my suggestion. Somebody replied that no, AAs shouldn't get fletching, only mechanics should and mechanics only got it because they have no way to conjure their own ammo, unlike artificers and rangers.

I was replying to that specific point (which I quoted in my reply) to point out that mechanics didn't need fletching for that reason at all. They can freely summon all the ammo they want by UMDing low level scrolls that are sold by vendors.

Whether or not the enhancement bonus from conjured bolts stacks with the weapon itself (they do not, nor do the actual effects if identical) is wholly irrelevant to why I brought those scrolls up in the first place.

that is true, I rarely ever switch ammo except for obvious reasons or I have the time between fights to do it. normally vendor off any lootgen ammo and stick with House D arrows swapping bows as needed for those affects. it is a pain to have to bring it up on your screen and manually change arrows, which is not efficient while running through a quest.

I think its a bit much to make ammo 100% returning, but I agree that Mechanics shouldn't have Fletching. I think Fletching is just as powerful as a warlock with endless blasts.

i like the suggestion made about hotbaring bow and ammo as a weapon set. i don't know if that is possible and feel its the most obvious and easiest way to do this. it would be a huge QoL fix and make those special ammos desired more.

[PermaBanned]

BTW: where do you see that MAJOR improvements?

Are +6d6 elemental damage and +1 critical multiplier is MAJOR? Are you serious?
Especially when they nerf Slaying Arrow and Manyshoot?

MS/10k issues aside, I'd call upgrading the Elemental/Force Arrows from a non-scaling 1d6 to a Spellpower scaling {up to} 7d8/7d6 and a +Crit multi a fairly substantial - or major - increase.


Related to MS/10k: should we be expecting the same treatment for Endless Fueselade (sp?) when the Arti pass comes?

[Requiro]

MS/10k issues aside, I'd call upgrading the Elemental/Force Arrows from a non-scaling 1d6 to a Spellpower scaling {up to} 7d8/7d6 and a +Crit multi a fairly substantial - or major - increase.
(...)

If +28 static elemental damage, +1 critical multiplier and nerfing Slaying Arrow was all that need AA, then I think there was no need for AA improvements from the beginning.

Devs - If you don't plan more innovation to AA so at least lower the AP cost that we can take more stuff from DWS.

[Propane]

I had a simple but good idea (at least I think) this morning...

Increase the duration of Many Shot for additional Ranger Levels.

Ranger 7-12 --> + 1 sec per level (6 sec total increase)
Ranger 13-18 --> + 2 sec per level (18 sec total increase)
Ranger 19 & 20 --> +5 sec per level (28 sec total increase)

Leave the cool down as is...

Balances out 10K stars and Monk levels by leaving them mostly untouched, reward and buffs ranger for studying harder at being a better ranger....

Thoughts?

[barecm]

Earth Stance. So, yes, Monkchers get crit multiplier.

Earth stance is only on rolls of a natural 19 or 20. The Tier 18 +1 crit multiplier is on all crits, with Divine Crusader, TF crits on 15-20. Pinion I think is 13-20, so yeah, it is a better deal with lvl 18 Ranger / Elf AA. Plus, earth penalizes movement speed (which folks are complaining about) and -2 dex which now can be both to hit and damage for rangers who select it in DWS.

[PermaBanned]

If +28 static elemental damage, +1 critical multiplier and nerfing Slaying Arrow was all that need AA, then I think there was no need for AA improvements from the beginning.

Devs - If you don't plan more innovation to AA so at least lower the AP cost that we can take more stuff from DWS.

Huh? What is this +28 static Elemental damage? I suppose the +7d8 is an ~average of 28, but scaled by Spellpower it comes out to even more (how much more is level & build/gear dependent ofc) and that's /arrow; plus the additional Crit multi...

And... "If that's all that was needed?" Really not sure where you're getting that.
From Page 1, Post 1, Paragraph 1:

Here's some changes we'd like to make to Arcane Archer sooner rather than later. We expect we may come back to Arcane Archer in the not-distant future to address additional issues we'd like to get to. ... There are some specific abilities that we consider underperforming that we want to address but may not have time to get in very soon¹.

And then again towards the closing of the OP:

Again, we want to say that we don't think this is a perfect or even a complete pass for Arcane Archer. As an example, it pains us to leave Dispelling and Shattermantle shot as-is...

So, um yeah... not sure what you're on about there; this isn't intended to be a complete pass. Now, if you want to say an incomplete pass is a bad idea given their track record of starting and abandoning things I'll gladly agree

[FestusHood]

Doubtful. The secondary shots (and strikes when considering melee doublestrike) can skip hit collision testing, which is likely much more expensive than all the dice rolls combined. That's the whole reason that doublestrike causes less lag than alacrity.

I would be surprised if manyshot is conducting a collision check for every attack either. The attacks are simultaneous, just like doubleshot procs. That's why effects like adrenaline proc on all four arrows of manyshot, and also on arrows/bolts produced by doubleshot. A repeater seems to be firing consecutive projectiles with high proximity. I've never tried this, but i wonder if you could actually cause individual shots from manyshot or a repeater burst to hit different targets by rapidly rotating using mouselook.

If manyshot really is causing separate collision checks where doubleshot isn't, then a solution would be to actually get this doubleshot wraparound thing working, and change manyshot to provide 300% non stacking doubleshot for it's duration.

[Faltout]

I think there is a big difference between manyshoot and doubleshoot

Manyshot = multiple attacks. That means multiple to hit calculation AND multiple "line of fire" calculation (ie : does the projectile hit an obstacle (wall), hit a target and continue (IPS),...)
Doubleshot = ONE attacke, but damage can be applied twice

I guess that calculating the "line of fire" is rather CPU intensive and must be handled on the server (if it is done on client, it can be hacked and changed for cheats programs)

So changing manyshot from mulitple attack to doubleshot (multiple damage) could reduce server lag
But that means less procs on "to hit" for players

If that was the case, fix is indeed easy: Just code manyshot the same way as doubleshout regarding any physics checks or damage/effect rolls.
But no, doubleshot is not "one attack". It rolls a separate attack roll, separate damage roll and of course procs all the on-hit/on-crit/on-vorpal effects again.

However, what Sev says is "burst projectiles". As in, sustained doubleshot is not an issue for arrow copying (*) but situational manyshot is. However, I still don't agree with this. If they use some kind of optimization for sustained projectile copy, why don't they use the same optimization for the situational? What's different between sustained and situational?

(*) Picking up clues from several developer posts in the past, I guess that each time a projectile fires they make a temporary copy of the projectile with all its effects and pass it to the attack process. That's why they mentioned at some point that it was hard to add augments to throwers because the technology would not allow them to copy the augment to the temporary projectile.

[Bennum]

So as a melee focused Ranger I can just destroy my two greensteel bows and the thunderforged one I just started when this goes live. If manyshot is narfed so goes my only reason to ever pick up a bow. These changes could only benefit those who are ranged focused but as is on live manyshot is a melee rangers only way to do ranged atm.

[ComicRelief]

Those are the "cruddy +1 returners" I repeatedly referenced.

True, and understood. But I think giving the "conjure arrows" some love would be, at least me, preferable than scraping it in favor of "fletching" (honestly, I think "fletching" is lacking...especially considering it's a tier 4 EN. But I digress...). Let them grow in power like "conjure bolts" do and/or give AAs a 3rd toggle stance.

Sure they can. Rogues get UMD natively, and can buy both Conjure Bolts (+1) and Flame Arrow (Flaming) scrolls from vendors to create 1000 and 500 bolts repectively.

Well, I wouldn't exactly say "natively" as that implies they're 'given' UMD w/o having to work for it. They do have to dump skill points into it to build it up (yes, yes - most, if not all, rogues will do this). But, yeah, that's true, too.

But they do have to know the scrolls are available ("Arty scrolls are available from a vendor? Really?" hehehe - my reaction when I finally found this out, not too long ago...). Not to mention that it was only (relatively) recently that the "conjure bolts" scroll was finally fixed to actually, well, conjure bolts. And while I cannot say for certain, I would expect that most rogue-mechanics (at least, until the rogue EN pass) use x-bows, not short bows, so arrows are(were) of no use.

My biggest pet peeve with ranged toons is running out of ammo. And I have. And it sucks. And I'd rather have an "endless supply" of arrows in one stack, than rely on a percentage chance of returning. (Because anything less than 100% returning will mean that if you shoot long enough, you will run out of ammo. )

But, admittedly, that may just be me.

[PermaBanned]

So as a melee focused Ranger I can just destroy my two greensteel bows and the thunderforged one I just started when this goes live. If manyshot is narfed so goes my only reason to ever pick up a bow. These changes could only benefit those who are ranged focused but as is on live manyshot is a melee rangers only way to do ranged atm.

Interesting reaction. Pending the ability (as they're only "investigating" and not commited to it) to "wrap around" the Doubleshot, a Melee focused Ranger is who might actually get the better benefit from the nerfed Manyshot. Not to mention that burst or sustained, and even nerfed Manyshot will likely always be a better ranged option for a Melee Ranger than no Manyshot... (To be clear: I'm not saying the nerfed MS will be good for him like a buff. I'm saying in it's nerfed form, MS will {possibly} provide greater benefit to him than a Range focused because he'll likely have much less Doubleshot to begin with.)

[Requiro]

(...)So, um yeah... not sure what you're on about there; this isn't intended to be a complete pass. Now, if you want to say an incomplete pass is a bad idea given their track record of starting and abandoning things I'll gladly agree

Well... Maybe I put it on wrong words. You are right. I saw these changes and lost hope for any more good one.

I think capstone is the one that washed my hope for good pass on AA. With Pure Ranger, there is no brainer between DWS and AA Capstone:
20% doubleshot vs 20 Ranged Power + always in PBS range (thus ALWAYS: +1[W] and + 6d6 Sneak Attack) + some minor other bonuses.

I had a simple but good idea (at least I think) this morning...

Increase the duration of Many Shot for additional Ranger Levels.

Ranger 7-12 --> + 1 sec per level (6 sec total increase)
Ranger 13-18 --> + 2 sec per level (18 sec total increase)
Ranger 19 & 20 --> +5 sec per level (28 sec total increase)

Leave the cool down as is...

Balances out 10K stars and Monk levels by leaving them mostly untouched, reward and buffs ranger for studying harder at being a better ranger....

Thoughts?

While idea is ok, it's not what Devs aiming for.
They want (probably) remove old, laggin mechanic and replace it by new non-laggin doubleshoot mechanic.

The problem is that right now doubleshoot, have cap at 100%. With new hope, they debating to remove that cap.

But their solution have plenty of problems:
- Nerf to Burst damage (400% vs (200% + RP) or with hope (264% + RP))
- Nerf to on hit effect because lower amount or Arrows in total
- Massive Nerf for leveling (Number of arrows: lvl 6 1,24 vs 2; lvl 11 1,44 vs 3; lvl 16 1,64 vs 4)
- Massive Nerf for new players (above AND no doubleshoot Past Lives)
- Still the best, miles away then other build will be monkcher (+1 critical multiplier is just not enough...)

IMO they should concentrate on these problems. Some (like much much other in this threat ideas) suggestion:

For Burst damage:
- Remove Cap with Double shoot (and call it Multishoot)
- Add +1[W] while Manyshot is Active

For New players:
- Add Ranged Alacrity 5% on level 12 Ranger, 10% on level 16 Ranger and 15% on level 20 Ranger. It's not stack with Haste, so most Veterans will ignore that bonus, but New players will be happy to have one.

For Leveling:
- Add new spells, that will improve QoL for Rangers, when leveling (there are some suggestion around, mine is here: https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthrea...y-2-new-Spell))

For on hit effect:
- Adjust number of Arrows in total 120 second to be close that we have today by adding passive Doubleshoot in Manyshot feat.

For remove so huge gap between Monkcher and rest:
- Add something on Ranger levels 13-20. Some ideas: Propoane above idea, Passive +1 Ranged Power per Ranger levels 13-20, additional Feat slot on level 16,19 (new wildness feat list) ect.
- Add in high AA Core ability 18 and 20 some bonuses like: Active Manyshoot produce also Spell Power with the same amount like Ranger Power (for new Elemental Arrows), Capstone give access to 3rd stable Imbues ability ect.

[Grailhawk]

Interesting reaction. Pending the ability (as they're only "investigating" and not commited to it) to "wrap around" the Doubleshot, a Melee focused Ranger is who might actually get the better benefit from the nerfed Manyshot. Not to mention that burst or sustained, and even nerfed Manyshot will likely always be a better ranged option for a Melee Ranger than no Manyshot... (To be clear: I'm not saying the nerfed MS will be good for him like a buff. I'm saying in it's nerfed form, MS will {possibly} provide greater benefit to him than a Range focused because he'll likely have much less Doubleshot to begin with.)

UMM but if he does less damage then he does with his melee weapons whats the point in using manyshot. Even if he gets more benefit then an Archer he would still get no benefit.

[PermaBanned]

UMM but if he does less damage then he does with his melee weapons whats the point in using manyshot. Even if he gets more benefit then an Archer he would still get no benefit.

How much damage does your {melee weapon of choice} do against the Demon Queen when she's across the chasm? Or the Storm Reaver when he tosses you to the roof? Or against the optional dragon (while it's flying) in HHoE? Or... you get the idea. It's to those types of situations I was referring when mentioning ranged damage on a melee Ranger and Manyshot in any form being obviously better than no Manyshot. My bad, thought such scenarios were implicit when mentioning a need for ranged damage on a Melee ^^

[Basura_Grande]

How much damage does your {melee weapon of choice} do against the Demon Queen when she's across the chasm? Or the Storm Reaver when he tosses you to the roof? Or against the optional dragon (while it's flying) in HHoE? Or... you get the idea. It's to those types of situations I was referring when mentioning ranged damage on a melee Ranger and Manyshot in any form being obviously better than no Manyshot. My bad, thought such scenarios were implicit when mentioning a need for ranged damage on a Melee ^^

Since they added ranged-power, and even after the recent buffs to tempest where stuff got much better, it was worth throwing a manyshot into a pile of mobs every time it was off timer. IPS hits more targets than Dance of Death.

With these new changes I'm not so sure.

[barecm]

Well... Maybe I put it on wrong words. You are right. I saw these changes and lost hope for any more good one.

I think capstone is the one that washed my hope for good pass on AA. With Pure Ranger, there is no brainer between DWS and AA Capstone:
20% doubleshot vs 20 Ranged Power + always in PBS range (thus ALWAYS: +1[W] and + 6d6 Sneak Attack) + some minor other bonuses.



While idea is ok, it's not what Devs aiming for.
They want (probably) remove old, laggin mechanic and replace it by new non-laggin doubleshoot mechanic.

The problem is that right now doubleshoot, have cap at 100%. With new hope, they debating to remove that cap.

But their solution have plenty of problems:
- Nerf to Burst damage (400% vs (200% + RP) or with hope (264% + RP))
- Nerf to on hit effect because lower amount or Arrows in total
- Massive Nerf for leveling (Number of arrows: lvl 6 1,24 vs 2; lvl 11 1,44 vs 3; lvl 16 1,64 vs 4)
- Massive Nerf for new players (above AND no doubleshoot Past Lives)
- Still the best, miles away then other build will be monkcher (+1 critical multiplier is just not enough...)

IMO they should concentrate on these problems. Some (like much much other in this threat ideas) suggestion:

For Burst damage:
- Remove Cap with Double shoot (and call it Multishoot)
- Add +1[W] while Manyshot is Active

For New players:
- Add Ranged Alacrity 5% on level 12 Ranger, 10% on level 16 Ranger and 15% on level 20 Ranger. It's not stack with Haste, so most Veterans will ignore that bonus, but New players will be happy to have one.

For Leveling:
- Add new spells, that will improve QoL for Rangers, when leveling (there are some suggestion around, mine is here: https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthrea...y-2-new-Spell))

For on hit effect:
- Adjust number of Arrows in total 120 second to be close that we have today by adding passive Doubleshoot in Manyshot feat.

For remove so huge gap between Monkcher and rest:
- Add something on Ranger levels 13-20. Some ideas: Propoane above idea, Passive +1 Ranged Power per Ranger levels 13-20, additional Feat slot on level 16,19 (new wildness feat list) ect.
- Add in high AA Core ability 18 and 20 some bonuses like: Active Manyshoot produce also Spell Power with the same amount like Ranger Power (for new Elemental Arrows), Capstone give access to 3rd stable Imbues ability ect.

I like some of the ranger level suggestions, particularly the increased rate of fire. It would need to be a source other than enhancement or competence bonus so it does not clash with current bonuses. The suggestions to add into the AA cores will actually backfire as Elf monchers will get access to that via the Elf enhancement tree. So, AA should really focus on the damage and should have put the crit multiplier into DWS.

[Lonnbeimnech]

I had a simple but good idea (at least I think) this morning...

Increase the duration of Many Shot for additional Ranger Levels.

Ranger 7-12 --> + 1 sec per level (6 sec total increase)
Ranger 13-18 --> + 2 sec per level (18 sec total increase)
Ranger 19 & 20 --> +5 sec per level (28 sec total increase)

Leave the cool down as is...

Balances out 10K stars and Monk levels by leaving them mostly untouched, reward and buffs ranger for studying harder at being a better ranger....

Thoughts?

Manyshot is not a ranger specific feat and should not have any must have freebie upgrades to it that can only be had by being a ranger. Making an enhancement that upgrades it after spending AP, that's a different story.

[CeltEireson]

Once again, I would like to point out that these issues could be worked out if there was an enhancement added too the Arcane Archer tree that allowed for using wisdom for damage with bows, similarly to Improved Finesse from the Deepwood Stalker tree. Also, this would allow for better splashes for people who want to be Warpriests of the Silver Flame (Clerics or Favored Souls, or even Paladins for that matter), but have to use bows as their favored weapon. Wis-based Rangers could be pretty awesome if this was added, and the magic aspect of the tree would be much more promising.

Edit: Is there any reason that this would be problematic? Also, Zen Archery allows for wisdom bonus to attack.

Because using the current formula it would be overpower - given the firing rate of arrows and doubleshot youll be getting a lot more chances over time to paralyse mobs than a DC caster can get off CC spells, and unlike spells there is no resource cost to use this ability. So the DCs don't need to be close to those of a caster otherwise the ability will be overpower and youll basically be able to keep mobs paralysed practically permanently. Its a choice - do I focus on dps and therefore max out dex and go for other dps related enhancments, or do I focus on special stances and wisdom and be good at cc.

I think that if they ever do allow dex to be used, which I hope isn't the case, that they'll have to adjust the formula quite a bit.

Plus giving wisdom to damage benefits monkchers more than anyone else.

[nibel]

No, if ddo follows the rules of dnd in this regard *and I THINK it does* the bows enhancement bonus determines TO HIT and the arrows determines the DAMAGE. I am not 100% this is the case but if it follows dnd rules that is how it works. If anyone knows for sure other wise and can cite it let me know.

Rules

The enhancement bonus from a ranged weapon does not stack with the enhancement bonus from ammunition. Only the higher of the two enhancement bonuses applies.

[CeltEireson]

MS/10k issues aside, I'd call upgrading the Elemental/Force Arrows from a non-scaling 1d6 to a Spellpower scaling {up to} 7d8/7d6 and a +Crit multi a fairly substantial - or major - increase.


Related to MS/10k: should we be expecting the same treatment for Endless Fueselade (sp?) when the Arti pass comes?

My level 25 ranger with nothing invested in upping spellpower, either item, skills, enhancements or epic destiny , has 66 spellpower in each of acid, fire, cold and electric (22 int and guild buffs including the elemental shrines). If I was reworking him - you can add +11 skill, +15 from skill augment (or +20 from items), +4 from GH, he only has +4 int tome so can get another one there, +5 from an int item or +4 from int augment (has +2 insight item on him). So that's between 101 and 107 without too much investment. Or in other words double damage from the elemental arrow enhancements.

Its not that difficult to find items with between 100 and 150 elemental damage, or red augment with up to 138 (and most named bows have or can have red slots). That's not taking into account spellpower increases from epic destinies some of which can be twisted in. Shiradi gives a total of 25 universal spellpower, 30 fire spellpower can be twisted in from divine crusader or get +50 from divine zeal if you're in the actual destiny. or +30 to the element of your choice from draconic incarnation.

Basically if you want to you can probably hit 200 spellpower without too much trouble - so triple the base damage of your elemental arrow enhancement, so 3 x 7d8 or about 95 damage extra per shot, which I wouldn't exactly call peanuts.

An elven int based wizard using elven AA could obviously get that a good bit higher given that some mages can round around with close to 400 not including empower and maximise - speaking of which does maximize/empower count for spellpower for elemental arrows?