Ranger: Arcane Archer Changes (Early Autumn Edition)

[Vargouille]

Here's some changes we'd like to make to Arcane Archer sooner rather than later. We expect we may come back to Arcane Archer in the not-distant future to address additional issues we'd like to get to. We consider this a strong basis for improvement in some of the primary Arcane Archer features. There are some specific abilities that we consider underperforming that we want to address but may not have time to get in very soon¹.

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Arcane Archer

• Action Boosts reduced to 1 AP per rank
• DC Based Arrow Stances: Includes Terror, Paralyzing, Banishing, and Smiting Arrows:
  
  • Each becomes one rank, 2 AP.
  • Each has a saving throw of 20 + Wisdom Modifier + Enchantment Spell Bonuses
  • Each enhancement taken grants +1 DC with Enchantment Spells.
  • Paralyze and Terror become short durations, but no additional save after the initial save. Short in this case is about 6 seconds. If you keep shooting one target, it can continue to be Paralyzed or Terrored. If you can keep a line going for Improved Precise Shot, you can keep this going on multiple enemies. To control maximum enemies, you'll need to frequently switch targets.
  • Paralyzing Arrows: On save, chance to apply 3 seconds of -10% Movement and Attack speed.
  • Smiting Arrows gains a chance to apply Deconstructed (slows attack speed, reduces fortification by 25%, and inflicts a 25% penalty to Repair healing)
  • Banishing Arrows gains chance to inflict Pull of Reality¹ on each hit.
    
    • Pull of Reality¹: -1 PRR, -1 MRR. Stacks up to 25 times. 5 stacks fade away every 3 seconds (if no new stacks were added).
  
  
• Elemental Arrows (Corrosive, Flaming, Frost, Shock)
  
  • Increase base damage to 1d8.
  • Damage scales with Spell Power. Exact amount TBD.
  • Each additional Elemental Arrows increases damage by +1 die.
  • Each enhancement tier from 2-5 has a new multiple choice option, "Elemental Damage", that increases damage by +2 dice (for a maximum of 7 dice if you select only one damage type).
  • Tier 5 Elemental Arrow damage (Improved) also scales with Spell Power.
  • Force Arrows scales number of dice with Elemental Arrows, and also scales with spellpower
  
  
• Shadow Arrows (Core, 18 levels of Ranger):
  
  • Gains: "Passive: Equipped bows gain +1 Competence bonus to Critical Damage Multiplier"
  
  
• Mystical Archer (Core, 20 levels of Ranger):
  
  • Dexterity bonus increased to +4
  
  
• Slaying Arrow:
  
  • Depending on DPS testing, this may be decreased or increased in power. Yes, if we've injected too much power into Arcane Archer, this is where we will probably pull back on some of it. We don't expect to fundamentally change the design of this ability, but it's not healthy or good design for so much of the power of one enhancement tree or build to be in a single ability like this. (And yes, we understand just how powerful and vital it is for certain builds, but that's part of the problem.)

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This accomplishes a few goals:

1. DC based abilities² have long been a bane of Arcane Archers. They were often extremely strong when obtained, but had no way at all to scale up towards higher levels, which has only gotten worse over time and higher levels. Reworking these abilities was a key feature we wanted to get to sooner rather than later. This has meant we've wanted to adjust how some of those abilities work as well, and in particular wanted Smiting and Banishing Arrows to feel more impactful on attacks that were not criticals (while not simply adding damage).
2. Elemental Arrows were simply too weak, and also didn't scale into Epic levels. These changes should make them feel pretty powerful in heroic while also having some good options to scale into Epic. The addition of multiple choice options gives players some meaningful choices on how to progress.
3. Those two changes, especially focusing on Spell DCs and Spell Power, help with the lore and flavor of Arcane Archer as well. While not strictly necessary for gameplay, we like to support this when we can. It also gives us a means of differentiating Arcane Archer from other potential bow users. We know this isn't a large and fully realized group of build choices, but we certainly want that open as a development path, and hopefully they won't look all that similar when we get there. Fighters focusing on bows should be viable, for instance, and wouldn't be likely to invest heavily in Spell Power or Enchantment DCs.
4. Some of the other changes are really quality of life, keeping up with the Joneses, and things we can quickly and easily do.

Again, we want to say that we don't think this is a perfect or even a complete pass for Arcane Archer. As an example, it pains us to leave Dispelling and Shattermantle shot as-is, and we've been discussing some other possibilities with the Player's Council. Those abilities really need a larger redesign - potentially touching on things like a redesign of Dispels across DDO, for instance, which we just don't have time for right now. But some of us having been pushing to get some of this came out sooner rather than later!

This is, of course, a design-in-progress, subject to change from testing, math, deep insights of wisdom, a million kobolds with typewriters, or designers unscrupulously trying to fit a bit more improvement in when they should probably get on with Level 30 work.



Thanks for your thoughts and feedback, and may you always be fighting in the shade!

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Footnotes, Vargouille? That's so outdated. Do you think you're in the module years?

1. (TM)

2. I'm going to recommend that when you fight in other planes, some enemy monsters should inflict Pull of Reality on player characters...

3. Developer Trivia: Some of the choices here in particular relate to technical hurdles that we've spent some time investigating working around but are probably not worth (even more) time. If you look carefully across DDO, you may note a relative lack of saving throws on most player abilities which are triggered passively. (Shiradi's Nerve Venom, for instance, was always intended to have a saving throw... it just didn't actually work, so got redesigned some at the last minute!) It's not that it's 100% impossible to do some of this kind of thing, but the amount of extra work is staggering (compared to even moderately simple abilities, can take 20-40 times as long to create). Even getting the saving throws we do have here is a bunch of extra work that doesn't really help anywhere else in the game, but at least applies to four abilities. This is also part of why they all use Enchantment Spell DC bonuses, rather than Terror Arrows using Necro... err, I mean, you are clearly enchanting your arrows in any case. So it's a lore reason! That sounds better, right? And therefore part of the flavor is that Arcane Archers specialize in Enchantment. It all comes together, somehow. (No, we're not going to base monster saves assuming you have 4 levels of Arcane Archer to get better Enchantment DCs... but if some Elf Wizard wants to go for it, well, we love somewhat crazy builds.)

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^{P.S. I probably ramble on too much even when I don't give a Trivia warning. Maybe I shouldn't use that. Maybe I shouldn't post hours after everyone else has gone home and no one can stop me. Bwahahahaha!}

[Grailhawk]

[*]Each enhancement taken grants +1 DC with Enchantment Spells.

You mean core enhancement? or is this the go to tree for a Enchantment wizard now?

O think I get it now each of Terror, Paralyzing, Banishing, and Smiting Arrow gives +1 so at total of +4?

[Vargouille]

Not quite caught up, but my posts already get too long...

I suspect the devs are aiming to make you choose between being good dps or crowd control with lower dps by forcing you to concentrate on wisdom to have the cc stances etc work. Which I think is fair enough.

Between Aa and DWS we can get +1 to both crit.multiplier and threat range which is a significant increase, plus what looks like substantial increase in damage from elemental or force arrows. So in AA id say its a choice between focusing on the special stances or focusing on elemental damage.

How good the elemental damage is depends on the scaling, but even at 100% it would be possibly up to 14d8 damage if I read it right with just 100 spellpower? And there are plenty of items that give spellpower boosts for various elements and most named bows have a red augment as well, so I don't think getting a reasonable amount of spellpower would be that difficult

With regards to requests for speed increases for ranger I don't think that its a good idea, as it is a ranger can avoid most damage by virtue of attacking at range and kiting if needs be. Increasing their speed to a point where they can simply outrun most mobs would possibly make life a little too easy for them especially when combined with the dps increase and cc elements.

We agree with many of these thoughts.

1. Getting everything shouldn't be easy. Like many casters, it's difficult to maximize Spell Power and DCs on the same character. You can make a good effort. Arcane Archers also get very strong very-low-resource physical ranged damage on top of that. Yes, it may be hard to maximize your Arcane Archer's physical ranged damage, magical damage, and DCs. Since that's more than nearly any other class or build gets, it should be terrifically difficult.
   
   1. Does this mean you are going to be forced to spec for Wisdom? Well, if you don't, your DCs are probably higher than before. Paralyzing Arrow DC on live caps out at 26. Just taking Paralyzing Arrows itself puts you at 21, with a 10 Wisdom. Putting in some effort towards Wisdom and Enchantment DCs (which applies to Enchantment spells in addition to these four stances) can help a lot.
   2. We absolutely expect some players may mostly ignore Paralyzing Arrows much of the time and focus on Elemental damage. That's fine and not a bad thing, because it means not all AAs look the same.
   
   
2. We expect some players to try to build for all three of Physical Ranged, Magical Ranged, and DCs. That's going to be a hard build to make. Consider it a challenge. We're not going out of our way to make it easy for you. (Dexterity is probably the worst choice for the DC-driver stat for this reason, though Constitution is close.)
3. This enables a DC-based build for Arcane Archers that never existed, particular for epic. The DC formula is identical to what a level 10 (Ranger) spell would be. With a bow it's trickier, but you can probably still get pretty close to the same caster-stat and Enchantment DCs as a Sorc or Wizard (roughly). While there may yet be problems to solve with Epic DCs and monster saves, we think this is an excellent "target" to aim for with Arcane Archer DCs.
4. Movement speed is probably already fine for Arcane Archers. I'm worried I'm being too generous giving a no-save -10% movement speed to AAs!

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How will this work for the Elven version?

Most things will be the same. We are open to there being differences.

For instance, it is interesting to include Ranger level in DC calculations. And we do discuss things like pure-class Elven Monkchers (who won't get Deepwood Stalker bonuses but do get other things, etc.) Realistically, including Ranger would probably mean reducing the 20 in the DC calculations that coworkers tell me I've given out too generously - that 20 could just be Ranger level or 10 + Ranger level, etc.

But we're not firm on any definite differences right now. We're happy for players to point out places this is good or bad or interesting.

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So, kindly dont nerf (...)monkchers.

Let's re-state our stance on monkchers:

1. Monkchers should be a viable top-tier ranged DPS build.
2. Non-monkchers should also be viable top-tier ranged DPS builds.

In particular, I personally frequently bring up this goal (for instance, when discussing 10k and Manyshot): The best build ranged should not require monk levels.

I will also personally, at threat of harm from my coworkers, encourage you to discuss and math as much monkcher vs. non-monkcher as possible. I truly absolutely do not want monk levels required in all the best ranged builds. I also truly absolutely want monkcher to exist as a top ranged build. This is hard, especially with trying to keep overall changes sane and avoid breaking existing builds wherever possible.

For instance, we could make 10k & Manyshot fully exclusive timers. But then every monkcher would need to get rid of one of those, which is essentially a forced rebuild to run your existing character(s). We really hate doing those. (We do not in any way hate making new builds that are awesome and fun and may draw you away from existing builds - because usually you could keep playing your existing build and it would work as it has. If new stuff is exciting and awesome... well, that's simply not a thing to avoid, that's a goal to reach for every time. Note that this is NOT the same as "new things should be OP", which is not a goal and not desirable.)

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Rangers DUMP Wis!

(...)

The ONLY Spellpower a Ranger should have is Devotion!

That may be how some Rangers have been built in the past.

That doesn't mean it's how Arcane Archers should always be built in the future.

Especially if they want to be good at ranged physical, ranged magical, crowd control, and healing. If you want to be king of everything, that should be hard.

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Are you going to drop the AP cost of shattermantle and dispelling shot to 1 each?

Some (other) AP costs may be subject to change, yes.

O think I get it now each of Terror, Paralyzing, Banishing, and Smiting Arrow gives +1 so at total of +4?

This is correct.

I think the changes look pretty good. Some of us would like to see rangers get a bonus to run speed. Could that be put in this tree in say tier 1? Also, will rangers be getting some sort of "spell" pass? Our spells could really use a boost, revamp, redue.... Really enjoying my tempest/deepwood ranger!

There's probably no real need for additional run speed for most ranged characters, especially with the new 10% slow on Paralyzing Arrows - if that's what you need at the time.

We may look into Ranger spells at some point, but this is not that point.

Also, is double-shot working with all shots on a repeater WAI?

Doubleshot is currently intended to have a chance on each shot on a repeater at 1/3 the normal chance.

Dispelling shot: x%/y%/x% Chance to cast Silence. Target cannot cast spells for n seconds.

Shattermantle shot: Reduces MRR by x/y/z for n/n/n seconds.

Interesting ideas. We probably won't get to them Very Soon.

AA *NEEDS* steady, sustained damage in the tree (which I guess means ranged power, or bow animations being redone the way repeaters were to function in the new higher-damage environment). You keep forgetting that Arcane Archer is a racial tree for elves and half-elves and that means any class can be an AA. Sticking all the steady damage in Deepwood Sniper and presuming AA's can afford to take extra feats for ranged power (because rangers get the core archery feats for free) cripples racial builds.

Please read about the Elemental damage increase. It's pretty massive. Plus critical damage multiplier. Most of the changes increase damage. If there is something you are seeing here that isn't what you are looking for, or something you aren't seeing that you want, please be very specific.

I want to understand your feedback, but I just don't get what you are trying to say.

PLEASE stop dismissing racial AA's when you make these changes.

Don't panic. Our apologies for not being more explicit: Nearly all changes are expected to be done in Ranger Arcane Archer and Elven Arcane Archer. It's possible there will be some differences. It's something we've discussed but not concluded anything about.

Being AA the "caster" tree, I'm gonna ask this here aswell.

I've got it, you're not gonna add new spells, despite ranger clearly needs them.
The question is: why?

I mean, I really know how much time it takes for you, but you did it for other classes.
So why aren't you going to do this for the class that needs it more?

"Spells" are not something anyone directly needs per se. What do you want these spells to do? What are you desiring but not getting?

Rangers clearly don't need "spells" more than anything else. We're pretty confident with our priorities here. Adding new Ranger spells is not more important than any DWS, Tempest, or AA changes we've looked at recently. We understand if you disagree, but in the abstract it's extremely hard to understand why you feel "spells" generically need to be added.

2. Paralyzing Arrows
I like the on-save addition, but it would be further cool if this on-save effect stacked up to 5 times.

7. Dodge & Run speed
I was hoping to see some potential low hanging fruit in terms of Dodge or Run speed in this tree, since it didn't make it into Tempest or DWS, and on reflection I think it makes more sense for it to be in this tree somewhere?

Arcane Archers might be happy to have more run speed or the ability to reduce enemy movement by 50%... but they absolutely don't need it and it probably makes for more boring gameplay.

They also shouldn't really need Dodge the stat - they need to dodge in a more physical (digital-physical) sense.

[Arlathen]

1. Getting everything shouldn't be easy. Like many casters, it's difficult to maximize Spell Power and DCs on the same character. You can make a good effort. Arcane Archers also get very strong very-low-resource physical ranged damage on top of that. Yes, it may be hard to maximize your Arcane Archer's physical ranged damage, magical damage, and DCs. Since that's more than nearly any other class or build gets, it should be terrifically difficult.
2. We expect some players to try to build for all three of Physical Ranged, Magical Ranged, and DCs. That's going to be a hard build to make. Consider it a challenge. We're not going out of our way to make it easy for you. (Dexterity is probably the worst choice for the DC-driver stat for this reason, though Constitution is close.)
3. This enables a DC-based build for Arcane Archers that never existed, particular for epic. The DC formula is identical to what a level 10 (Ranger) spell would be. With a bow it's trickier, but you can probably still get pretty close to the same caster-stat and Enchantment DCs as a Sorc or Wizard (roughly). While there may yet be problems to solve with Epic DCs and monster saves, we think this is an excellent "target" to aim for with Arcane Archer DCs.
4. Movement speed is probably already fine for Arcane Archers. I'm worried I'm being too generous giving a no-save -10% movement speed to AAs!

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Let's re-state our stance on monkchers:

1. Monkchers should be a viable top-tier ranged DPS build.
2. Non-monkchers should also be viable top-tier ranged DPS builds.

In particular, I personally frequently bring up this goal (for instance, when discussing 10k and Manyshot): The best build ranged should not require monk levels.

I will also personally, at threat of harm from my coworkers, encourage you to discuss and math as much monkcher vs. non-monkcher as possible. I truly absolutely do not want monk levels required in all the best ranged builds. I also truly absolutely want monkcher to exist as a top ranged build. This is hard, especially with trying to keep overall changes sane and avoid breaking existing builds wherever possible.

For instance, we could make 10k & Manyshot fully exclusive timers. But then every monkcher would need to get rid of one of those, which is essentially a forced rebuild to run your existing character(s). We really hate doing those. (We do not in any way hate making new builds that are awesome and fun and may draw you away from existing builds - because usually you could keep playing your existing build and it would work as it has. If new stuff is exciting and awesome... well, that's simply not a thing to avoid, that's a goal to reach for every time. Note that this is NOT the same as "new things should be OP", which is not a goal and not desirable.)

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Arcane Archers might be happy to have more run speed or the ability to reduce enemy movement by 50%... but they absolutely don't need it and it probably makes for more boring gameplay.

They also shouldn't really need Dodge the stat - they need to dodge in a more physical (digital-physical) sense.

This is all interesting feedback, Varg. Some further tidbits for myself:

1. AA play style - DC 'Casting'
I'm actually enthused to make a "DC-Caster" style Arcane Archer, in all honesty. There's a lot to build for with this approach, and lots of interesting abilities to acquire on a Ranger that I simply wouldn't have bothered with before.

2. AA play style - Magical Damage
With Spell Lore effects be able to make the Elemental Damage crit if Spell Power also affects them?

3. Monkcher vs Pure Ranger
This is really heartening to hear, and I have to agree - the last thing I want to see is a build completely obsoleted by enhancement and feat changes.

4. Run Speed
I hear you on this, I really do. Personally as an FPS player I find quick movements & tumbling not a problem to action to 'digitally-physically' dodge Mobs and incoming projectiles. However, what about the more 'keyboard challenged' players out there? A little extra dodge and perhaps trading out Paralyzing Arrows easy debuff for a permanent 10% Run speed increase in the cores?

And in all honesty, Monkchers are already enjoying some form of run speed increase anyway. The varieties I've played in the past have been 12 Monk / 6 Ranger variants that had an effective +10% run speed after Earth stance and access to Abundant Step for quick escapes.

[Thar]

[QUOTE=Vargouille;5700265]Not quite caught up, but my posts already get too long...



We agree with many of these thoughts.

[LIST=1][*]Getting everything shouldn't be easy. Like many casters, it's difficult to maximize Spell Power and DCs on the same character. You can make a good effort. Arcane Archers also get very strong very-low-resource physical ranged damage on top of that. Yes, it may be hard to maximize your Arcane Archer's physical ranged damage, magical damage, and DCs. Since that's more than nearly any other class or build gets, it should be terrifically difficult.

1. Does this mean you are going to be forced to spec for Wisdom? Well, if you don't, your DCs are probably higher than before. Paralyzing Arrow DC on live caps out at 26. Just taking Paralyzing Arrows itself puts you at 21, with a 10 Wisdom. Putting in some effort towards Wisdom and Enchantment DCs (which applies to Enchantment spells in addition to these four stances) can help a lot.
2. We absolutely expect some players may mostly ignore Paralyzing Arrows much of the time and focus on Elemental damage. That's fine and not a bad thing, because it means not all AAs look the same.

so max dc would be something like 20 + wisdom mod (16+6 tome + 2 ship + 12 item+3 exc +1 insight+2 litnany= 42 =+16 mod) + enchant 6 (4 arrows + 2aug) = 42 dc. please advise how many in the new content pacts would save vs this on EE? granted 16 may be a little weak for starting dc but it's reasonable for the class to be spread out on stats and it's only -1 dc to start from max on most races. Similarly with dex to damage available +7 to stats on levelup may go to wisdom but more practically would be dex. even so that's only +3.5 dc. most applicable dc's are 50s to 60s on EE. so a rangers cc would be useless. a stacking - 1 or 2 save on hit would be a good addition for those arrows.

[Vargouille]

so max dc would be something like 20 + wisdom mod (16+6 tome + 2 ship + 12 item+3 exc +1 insight+2 litnany= 42 =+16 mod) + enchant 6 (4 arrows + 2aug) = 42 dc. please advise how many in the new content pacts would save vs this on EE? granted 16 may be a little weak for starting dc but it's reasonable for the class to be spread out on stats and it's only -1 dc to start from max on most races. Similarly with dex to damage available +7 to stats on levelup may go to wisdom but more practically would be dex. even so that's only +3.5 dc. most applicable dc's are 50s to 60s on EE. so a rangers cc would be useless. a stacking - 1 or 2 save on hit would be a good addition for those arrows.

This is equivalent to a level 10 Spell. Which is to say it's already slightly better DC than casters generally get. If it is not good enough for casters, then we'll look at addressing DCs/saves for everyone. There is no new problem here that doesn't exist already for casters. We certainly don't want to put AA DCs even higher than casters. Surely they shouldn't be +10 or +20 points better than a similar Wisdom-based caster?

As mentioned in the first post, Paralyze, Smiting, and Banishing are all gaining new on-save effects (or just on-hit, which is mostly the same for Smiting and Banishing -- if they didn't save vs. the vorpal they are dead!)

[Thar]

This is equivalent to a level 10 Spell. Which is to say it's already slightly better DC than casters generally get. If it is not good enough for casters, then we'll look at addressing DCs/saves for everyone. There is no new problem here that doesn't exist already for casters. We certainly don't want to put AA DCs even higher than casters. Surely they shouldn't be +10 or +20 points better than a similar Wisdom-based caster?

As mentioned in the first post, Paralyze, Smiting, and Banishing are all gaining new on-save effects (or just on-hit, which is mostly the same for Smiting and Banishing -- if they didn't save vs. the vorpal they are dead!)

casters have to get their level x spell to those levels to work? my necro caster has to hit mid 50s at low 20s to 60+ at end game to make it effective. perhaps if this is a will dc it will be lower? what is your expections for saves vs these? What are common trash mobs saves vs? my lvl 25 wizard has a 43 dc with dancing ball and it works 10%-20% of the time. how will these arrows be different? how is that fun? imo adding "caster level" would help these be effective for primary ranger builds. even 1/2 caster level would help. please compare with epic mobs and advise?

just want them to be viable on EE, not necessarily no miss on ee, but if never viable at that level then what's the point for endgame? ie if you can't paralize, yes the on hit is a nice perk but wouldn't then another option be better (ie elemental arrows, etc that do some dps vs a non paralizing shot. 26 currently is useless except on a save of 1 so maybe only while your manyshotting will you see something stop, and not for long till 2nd save kicks in.


Vargouille

Quote Originally Posted by Thar View Post
most monchers are 12 monk 6 ranger.
Which means they don't get any of the Core crit bonuses from AA or DWS, unless Elven. As mentioned there are many options.


they get this a bonus of earth stance so that's ok, no? or will be reviewed with monk pass?

[Vellrad]

This is equivalent to a level 10 Spell. Which is to say it's already slightly better DC than casters generally get. If it is not good enough for casters, then we'll look at addressing DCs/saves for everyone. There is no new problem here that doesn't exist already for casters. We certainly don't want to put AA DCs even higher than casters. Surely they shouldn't be +10 or +20 points better than a similar Wisdom-based caster?

As mentioned in the first post, Paralyze, Smiting, and Banishing are all gaining new on-save effects (or just on-hit, which is mostly the same for Smiting and Banishing -- if they didn't save vs. the vorpal they are dead!)

This is 10-20 less than casters get in their prefered schools.
42 was my DC when level cap was 20.

[Aletys]

so max dc would be something like 20 + wisdom mod (16+6 tome + 2 ship + 12 item+3 exc +1 insight+2 litnany= 42 =+16 mod) + enchant 6 (4 arrows + 2aug) = 42 dc. please advise how many in the new content pacts would save vs this on EE? granted 16 may be a little weak for starting dc but it's reasonable for the class to be spread out on stats and it's only -1 dc to start from max on most races. Similarly with dex to damage available +7 to stats on levelup may go to wisdom but more practically would be dex. even so that's only +3.5 dc. most applicable dc's are 50s to 60s on EE. so a rangers cc would be useless. a stacking - 1 or 2 save on hit would be a good addition for those arrows.

This is equivalent to a level 10 Spell. Which is to say it's already slightly better DC than casters generally get. If it is not good enough for casters, then we'll look at addressing DCs/saves for everyone. There is no new problem here that doesn't exist already for casters. We certainly don't want to put AA DCs even higher than casters. Surely they shouldn't be +10 or +20 points better than a similar Wisdom-based caster?

As mentioned in the first post, Paralyze, Smiting, and Banishing are all gaining new on-save effects (or just on-hit, which is mostly the same for Smiting and Banishing -- if they didn't save vs. the vorpal they are dead!)

Two concerns:

• I think the assumption of a 16 base wisdom is way too high for a Dex based character (12 or 14 is more reasonable). Also, the assumption that they will have a +6 tome is not a good one, as most players don't have any on their toons, and are lucky to have any +4's or +5's on them. And assuming that every AA is going to have an Epic Litany is also a bad assumption. Right now, only third life toons are going to be able to spec for that much wisdom without seriously gimping their build in other areas. That means at 3-5 less DCs, or 37-39 dc. That means a large portion of the player base will not be able to effectively use these stances.

• You are essentially saying that you are willing to introduce a tree with enhancements that you know will not be viable from the get-go because you don't want to make the DC's higher than casters currently have. While I agree that caster DC's need serious work, based on that reasoning, the new trees for bards, paladins, barbarians, mechanics and warlocks should never have been introduced in their current forms because they are much, much stronger than the other melee/ranged/caster classes. Do what needs to be done to make the AA DC's viable now, then go back & fix the caster DC's (which do indeed need to be fixed).

[SirValentine]

Let's re-state our stance on monkchers:

1. Monkchers should be a viable top-tier ranged DPS build.

Hey, I'm all for "viable", but what's the reasoning behind having Monks archers be "top-tier"?

[Xionanx]

[/LIST]

Hey, I'm all for "viable", but what's the reasoning behind having Monks archers be "top-tier"?

Because monks melee are super weak, its the only viable monk build.

[Vargouille]

[/LIST]

Hey, I'm all for "viable", but what's the reasoning behind having Monks archers be "top-tier"?

One reason is to not take that away from current players who have often invested years into those characters. It's something we sometimes feel necessary to do but we avoid that when we can.

Another is that it's a moderately complex build that rewards a good player who's paying attention. While monks get some bonuses other ranged characters don't, it goes the other way as well, which means we don't see a reason for it to not be top tier. Again, not everything has to be - while I would love to see an amazing Elven Occult Slayer Arcane Archer make it work, it's not a priority for us to change things to make that top tier. But we're not going to intentionally try to push down existing fun characters any more than absolutely necessary (if necessary at all).

[Lonnbeimnech]

If you are going forward with this many shot nerf/buff can we maybe add some ranged alacrity to its duration so you can still notice an increase in dps while its up?

[Mindos]

One reason is to not take that away from current players who have often invested years into those characters. It's something we sometimes feel necessary to do but we avoid that when we can.

Another is that it's a moderately complex build that rewards a good player who's paying attention. While monks get some bonuses other ranged characters don't, it goes the other way as well, which means we don't see a reason for it to not be top tier. Again, not everything has to be - while I would love to see an amazing Elven Occult Slayer Arcane Archer make it work, it's not a priority for us to change things to make that top tier. But we're not going to intentionally try to push down existing fun characters any more than absolutely necessary (if necessary at all).

If a bone breaks, and heals incorrectly, you MUST break it in order to set it properly. Is this game broke? To some degree, yes. Why else would we be making changes? And if changes are warrented, then perhaps some breakage is needed as well. Snapping off the abominations that have festered over the years so that the game can heal and grow properly is what you should be doing. Making excuses about the proliferation of such builds when they should never have existed for this long to begin with? Wag of the finger!

And why are we talking about Monk at all? This is the RANGER pass for Bhaal's sake! With such fretting around and constant concern for the other classes, playing this what if game is exausting. Why don't we focus on ranger now and worry about the other classes when we get to them? Do you view Ranger as a full and proper class? Or is it just a splash class to you? Make decisions based on it being a strong and proper class of its own, not based on what some other class might take from it?

Why isn't the question instead how much of another class will a ranger be tempted to splash instead of how much ranger will the others take?

[dng242]

Not quite caught up, but my posts already get too long...

"Spells" are not something anyone directly needs per se. What do you want these spells to do? What are you desiring but not getting?

Rangers clearly don't need "spells" more than anything else. We're pretty confident with our priorities here. Adding new Ranger spells is not more important than any DWS, Tempest, or AA changes we've looked at recently. We understand if you disagree, but in the abstract it's extremely hard to understand why you feel "spells" generically need to be added.

I agree with a lot of people on the spell subject. But then I'm a bit of a DnD homer. In PnP spells are important and make a difference. Between the enhancement system and available gear a huge number of spells (on all classes) are redundant or simply useless. With the massive exception of that one Paladin spell you used to basically rescue that class, your answer to everything tends to be enhancement based. That is one answer, but I would love for more of your answers to class balance to revolve around the core of DnD flexibility, spells and feats.

Don't get me wrong, the enhancements are cool, but don't forget spells and feats.

To give examples

• Why can't barkskin stack? All of a sudden it's useful and not overpowered
• An equivalent barkskin for dodge?
• Also, spells for your new concepts you have added (MRR, PRR, Spell Power, Melee Power, Ranged Power, Doubleshot). (Do have SLA that do this.... why not a few Spells!)
• Heck, even the stat buffs could stack. With people running around 60 - 80's... probably not going to break anything, but adds just a little.
• How about that 3.5 feat called Manyshot? What used to be the power attack of ranged. Vs the thing you made into Manyshot. Given your desire to address performance issues you could basically treat it like a [w] increase.
• A resist spell that give a percent reduction, allowing for better scaling to Epic
• Make the DC based spells more "range lvl +" DC. I doubt any would be so powerful as to be OP.
• Make Diehard actually relevant in Epic... like when you get a killing bow it only incaps you?

Just some ideas, and not all of them are perfect or should be used, but you get the point.
I know you want to re-invent everything. But you have done so much work just adding what we have. Why not just make it work in a way consistent with the state of the game?

[Qhualor]

There's probably no real need for additional run speed for most ranged characters, especially with the new 10% slow on Paralyzing Arrows - if that's what you need at the time.

We may look into Ranger spells at some point, but this is not that point.


"Spells" are not something anyone directly needs per se. What do you want these spells to do? What are you desiring but not getting?

Rangers clearly don't need "spells" more than anything else. We're pretty confident with our priorities here. Adding new Ranger spells is not more important than any DWS, Tempest, or AA changes we've looked at recently. We understand if you disagree, but in the abstract it's extremely hard to understand why you feel "spells" generically need to be added.

just noticed this. finally got some feedback on this. when Lama is up again, expect a video from me in a PM showing how useless ranger spells are. I would do it on Live right now if I had a ranger, but he is a level 28 warlock at the moment waiting his turn for his next past life.

I will say this though

yes. I consider improving ranger spells to be a quality of life fix. you disagree? heres what I would take for a pure ranger

level 1:

resist energy
jump
rams might
empty

level 2:

protection from elements (never use it though)
barkskin (you need extremely high AC for it to actually be useful)
empty
empty

level 3:

neutralize poison (don't use it because its a mana drain and can just drink pots)
remove disease (don't use it when I can drink pots to save sp)
cure moderate wounds (back up to the back up to the back up)
empty

level 4:

freedom of movement
cure serious wounds
empty
empty

everything else is useless, needs a DC raise to be worth slotting, doesn't stack with gear, pointless or something that makes them not worthy of a spell slot. some, as I have pointed out, I slot more for just in case. there are no hard choices and the all 3 spells that a ranger has for spell damage and/or CC are useless, even with investment.

[Basura_Grande]

Doubleshot is currently intended to have a chance on each shot on a repeater at 1/3 the normal chance.

Then it's bugged as it's working much better than that.

As stuff's looking now repeater and thrower rangers will be much better than bows, and thats' really dumb.

[Holymunchkin]

Then it's bugged as it's working much better than that.

As stuff's looking now repeater and thrower rangers will be much better than bows, and thats' really dumb.

ya repeaters get 100% of doubleshot on each bolt.

you should consider nerfing this. (I play a pure ranger repeater right now in DWS and it is arguably slightly better than mechanic.)

Devs PLEASE keep in mind how imbues currently affect shuri throwers. Buffs to imbues are more-so beneficial for a shuri than they are for a pure ranger AA.

The nerf to manyshot and its burst ability is IMO very wierd.

Why not just leave the ability as is---and find another way to buff bows?

Its an old feat and nerfing it seems very strange and unnecessary. I don't think you guys need to fix what isn't broke. lol

[Severlin]

ya repeaters get 100% of doubleshot on each bolt.

Repeaters divide Doubleshot by 3 before they check to see if the crossbow got another shot. If that's not working it's a bug. I'll test it.

Edit: It was indeed not working. Should be fixed in the next build.

Sev~

[EllisDee37]

[*]Movement speed is probably already fine for Arcane Archers. I'm worried I'm being too generous giving a no-save -10% movement speed to AAs!

How is this justified when a pure rogue mechanic using great crossbows gets +40% rate of fire from mechanic and +20% run speed (for 3 AP!) from acrobat?

EDIT: Great crossbow mechanics appear to be superior to longbow users in every way: faster run speed, much higher rate of fire, plus they get to use situational ammo thanks to fletching. Bow users only ever get to use their crappy returners.