Ranger: Arcane Archer Changes (Early Autumn Edition)

[archerforever]

But none of this resolves the problem that Archers other than Monkchers cannot compete or compare in terms of Rate of Fire, which is very important point of this discussion.

You didn t read it : https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthrea...=archerforever

There is nothing complex in this and yes if everyone want that archers (not monk) can be as good as monkchers in some way, we must find an equivalent feat with other restrictions as 10k star.
Cause the REAL problem is that even with 100% doubleshot bonus, you ll never be as good as a monkcher.

[Arlathen]

You didn t read it : https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthrea...=archerforever

There is nothing complex in this and yes if everyone want that archers (not monk) can be as good as monkchers in some way, we must find an equivalent feat with other restrictions as 10k star.
Cause the REAL problem is that even with 100% doubleshot bonus, you ll never be as good as a monkcher.

Oh I did read it, and as far as I can see, your solution:

1. Requires you to spend another feat on a non-Monk build to achieve a similar Rate of Fire as a Monkcher
2. Requires +10 higher Dexterity over 10 Thousand Stars equivalent Wisdom score for the same number of arrows? Why penalise Dex users?
3. Requires you to wear Robes or Outfits, for the highest Dexterity bonus to apply to give the highest chance of Arrows shot? Why penalise Fighters or other heavier armour users?
4. Continues to nerf Doubleshot into oblivion. Why force a choice of Manyshot & Nimble Shots vs. using Doubleshot 100% of the time?
5. Actually shoots more actual arrows, where a stated Dev goal is to reduce the number of arrows and let Doubleshot take some of the engine work away from calculating all these arrows
6. Requires the following calculations to work out how many arrows you need:

1st extra projectile : 3 x (((Applied armor dexterity Bonus x 2)-10) / 2) + 30 percent chance
2nd extra projectile: 3 x (((Applied armor dexterity Bonus x 2)-10) / 2) -20 percent chance [minimum 34 Dexterity with a light armor 12 max dex bonus equipped)
3rd extra projectile: (((Applied armor dexterity Bonus x 2)-10) / 2) - 15 percent chance [minimum 52 Dexterity with a robe/outfit to apply your 21 max dex bonus

vs.

Looking at your Doubleshot score.

I'm sorry, but Nimble Shots isn't the solution we need.

[archerforever]

1. Requires you to spend another feat on a non-Monk build to achieve a similar Rate of Fire as a Monkcher

10k star needs zen archery, Nimble shot needs weapon focus ---> and yes 10k star or nimble shot, same investment of 1 feat

2. Requires +10 higher Dexterity over 10 Thousand Stars equivalent Wisdom score for the same number of arrows? Why penalise Dex users?

Because 10k star users are in robe so less PRR and need ki to activate (so more investment in feats, twist of fate or enhancements to have ki regen), nimble shot can be used in heavy armor so REALLY MORE PRR, no SP cost, no ki cost, no penalities in here, just different build possibility

3. Requires you to wear Robes or Outfits, for the highest Dexterity bonus to apply to give the highest chance of Arrows shot? Why penalise Fighters or other heavier armour users?

One more time, no penalities in here, just different build !!! You choose to max your DPS with robe OR you choose to have less DPS and higher PRR with light, medium or heavy armor. Don t forget that a mithral light armor doesn t have any max dex. One more time, more possibility

4. Continues to nerf Doubleshot into oblivion. Why force a choice of Manyshot & Nimble Shots vs. using Doubleshot 100% of the time?

Because everyone is crying about archers without 10k star and doubleshot is not the solution in any case cause doubleshot is BAD compared to 10k star

6. Requires the following calculations to work out how many arrows you need:

1st extra projectile : 3 x (((Applied armor dexterity Bonus x 2)-10) / 2) + 30 percent chance
2nd extra projectile: 3 x (((Applied armor dexterity Bonus x 2)-10) / 2) -20 percent chance [minimum 34 Dexterity with a light armor 12 max dex bonus equipped)
3rd extra projectile: (((Applied armor dexterity Bonus x 2)-10) / 2) - 15 percent chance [minimum 52 Dexterity with a robe/outfit to apply your 21 max dex bonus

vs.

Looking at your Doubleshot score.

10k star working the same way and no one complain about it

I'm sorry, but Nimble Shots isn't the solution we need.

You dislike my idea, I sure dislike yours. All is fine.

[mikarddo]

Rangers, as a class, have no more access to Doubleshot than Monks, as a class, do. The Doubleshot obtainable all (generally) comes from Arcane Archer, with DWS having +20% Doubleshot in a Tier 5 ability. If this is taken, then that rules out taking Slayer Arrow, which I think most full time Archers would be loathe to do.

The classic Monkcher builds that take AA as a racial enhancement tree would have access to slightly more Doubleshot, not less, because of the change to 10 Thousand Stars, and if they really want the 20% DWS they can still take it since most Monkcher still take 6+ Ranger levels.

Using BAB follows what the Devs have already stated in their revised version of Manyshot; I'm just following on an extrapolating from that idea.

Your also welcome to come up with your own solution, if you think mine sucks.

AA Core 6 Master of Imbuement adds +20% Doublestrike which a pure ranger can get but a monkcher cannot. Killer in Deepwood needs 23 ap in that tree which may not be possible for a monkcher as the monkcher may also need ap elsewhere for healing (halfling) and/or passive ki-regen (monk tree) neither of which the pure ranger needs. If the monkcher goes the Elf route even more ap needs to be spent in that tree. Killer is debatable as a difference but Master of Imbuement isnt.

I already did post my suggestion to a solution btw several pages back in this thread thank you for asking. You are welcome to go back and read it if you missed it on your first readthrough. You will notice that I advocate Doubleshot working during Manyshot as well which means that even a modest difference in Doubleshot will be quite an equalizer. Comments are definitely welcome.

Link: https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthrea...=1#post5701337

[Requiro]

~~~ The Manyshot & 10K Stars Conumdrum ~~~

I've been keeping up with the thread and I still don't see a solution to 10K Stars & Manyshot conumdrum when comparing Monkcher style builds against Pure Archers that don't take Monk levels for 10K Stars.
(...))

You must see closer https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthrea...=1#post5700788

[daniel7]

This isn't an exhaustive list, of course. Any of the "pure" builds can probably splash at least 2 levels to do other interesting things, and we'll look at those two, but this is a good sort of "outline". Many builds will be "mostly like" one of these builds. And there's lots of other Elven builds that we expect might be fine and interesting, though for some of them you are straying from the main supported pathways (usually to get something else). Warpriest AA w/ full healing, raging Occult Slayer AA, tactical? Kensei AA, etc.

I think you might see more build variation if each type of Elf got their own AA Enhancement Tree that is very similar to each other but still brings something unique. This way we get an Elf AA, Half Elf AA, Morninglord AA, and maybe a Drow AA.

Examples:
-Morninglord gets Imbued Light Arrows (maybe have this change to negative energy if in an undead form as a Wizard)
-Drow get AA shuriken version
-Elf AA ???
-Half Elf ??? Maybe have its uniqueness depend on its dilettante (is that too much to ask for?)

[Arlathen]

AA Core 6 Master of Imbuement adds +20% Doublestrike which a pure ranger can get but a monkcher cannot. Killer in Deepwood needs 23 ap in that tree which may not be possible for a monkcher as the monkcher may also need ap elsewhere for healing (halfling) and/or passive ki-regen (monk tree) neither of which the pure ranger needs. If the monkcher goes the Elf route even more ap needs to be spent in that tree. Killer is debatable as a difference but Master of Imbuement isnt.

There's absolutely no reason why an Elf/Sun-Elf/Half-Elf Monkcher couldn't pick up Master of Imbuement either. Players may prefer Halfling or another racefor there own non-DPS related reasons, but the fact is Monkchers can have access to the same amount of Doubleshot as a Ranger if they want it.

The only thing I don't particularly like about your idea is that you turn 10K Stars and Manyshot into Nuclear Missles, and not a Barrage of arrows like the theme suggests and as the feats previously played.

[Arlathen]

1. 10k star needs zen archery, Nimble shot needs weapon focus ---> and yes 10k star or nimble shot, same investment of 1 feat

2. Because 10k star users are in robe so less PRR and need ki to activate (so more investment in feats, twist of fate or enhancements to have ki regen), nimble shot can be used in heavy armor so REALLY MORE PRR, no SP cost, no ki cost, no penalities in here, just different build possibility

3. One more time, no penalities in here, just different build !!! You choose to max your DPS with robe OR you choose to have less DPS and higher PRR with light, medium or heavy armor. Don t forget that a mithral light armor doesn t have any max dex. One more time, more possibility

4. Because everyone is crying about archers without 10k star and doubleshot is not the solution in any case cause doubleshot is BAD compared to 10k star

5. 10k star working the same way and no one complain about it

6. You dislike my idea, I sure dislike yours. All is fine.

1. Poor argument, here. Theoretically Manyshot needs an investment of Point Blank Shot & Rapid Shot already, while a Monk has to take Zen archery to even be centered with Bows. There's no need to alter things to make Archery even more expensive in terms of feat requirements.

2. Between GM/Master Earth Stance, Iron Skin, Standing with Stone, Sightless or something similar, Past Lives, ED abilities, there's plenty of PRR available to an Outfit wearer. If Nimble shots magically makes it into live somehow, and I magically decide to roll a full time archer, I sure as hell wouldn't ever consider wearing Heavy Armour.

3. Seriously?! Wearing Heavy armour under Nimble shots, would be like a Monk having 10K Stars and only 12 Wisdom according to your own table. You create a character that goes all in on being a Full time archer, and then limit its chance of respectable DPS and Rate of Fire under Nimble Shots by wearing Heavy Armour?! That's not build choice, that's insanity at work.

4. Devs have already stated that Doubleshot ceiling can be potentially lifted allowing for more than one arrow to be produced. Why is Doubleshot so bad if we have enough %Doubleshot for a guaranteed 2 arrows and a good chance at 3 arrows per shot, all the while costing the engine less in terms of calculation?

5. People live with what tools their given to work with. Doesn't mean that simplification and ease of use shouldn't be a reasonable objective when there's a chance to improve a feat.

6. Its not about emotional 'liking' or 'disliking' for me. It's simply the fact that what you've suggested doesn't fit the stated design goals from the Devs.

[Arlathen]

You must see closer https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthrea...=1#post5700788

Apologies - I did skip over this a little.

If I'm not mistaken, your ideas are actually quite similar to my own. The real significant difference is I've put in a way to keep that 4 arrow, 20 second burst ability of Manyshot in while costing the engine less overall performance.

[mikarddo]

There's absolutely no reason why an Elf/Sun-Elf/Half-Elf Monkcher couldn't pick up Master of Imbuement either. Players may prefer Halfling or another racefor there own non-DPS related reasons, but the fact is Monkchers can have access to the same amount of Doubleshot as a Ranger if they want it.

The only thing I don't particularly like about your idea is that you turn 10K Stars and Manyshot into Nuclear Missles, and not a Barrage of arrows like the theme suggests and as the feats previously played.

You are right about Elves and Master of Imbuement - I stand corrected. Not sure why but I had the Elf AA tree wrong for some reason. The ap looks very tight though, 41 in AA, 21 in Deepwood for the 4th core and 14 in Elf doesnt leave enough to get passive ki regen from the monk tree or KtA. Also, elves are taller than halflings meaning worse IPS though definitely better single target dps or dps against taller mobs.

Wrt Nuclear missile vs Barrage I dont understand your point though. If the barrage of 3-4 arrows always hit the exact same target anyway there is no practical difference between making it one huge hit with a larger chance to crit/vorpal/proc etc vs 4 smaller hits that combined equal the one larger anyway.

[Emers-Lochingvyrr]

Well, i appreciate the reflexion and the work, but i really dislike the mechanic you are talking about in your suggestion.

1-Don t change manyshot, it s very good as it. Just remove the doubleshot penality.
2- 10k star is really good as it, because it s a lot of work and investment to hit this goal with armor restriction, ki, feats ect...
3- I already did a suggestion about it, to get a dex based feat similar as 10k star ---> https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthrea...=archerforever

And here, we r talking about new Arcane Archer enhancements so let s talk about it and not monkcher

Hear hear! Cheers to this

[Mindos]

Our DPS tests are showing some strong Deepwood Stalker Builds that can match crossbow builds in DPS tests. What are you using as the basis of your tests? I'd like to see what builds the players are testing with in case we missed anything.

Sev~

You do know that crossbow users CAN and DO use the elemental imbues from Arcane Archer, right? I don't know if it's working as (you) intended, but I do know that it HAS been working and for quite some time now. It is very easy to make the imbues work- I'm sure someone can tell you.

My point is this: When testing one class/build against another, I want you to make executive decisions with all the knowledge you can. I am NOT advocating a nerf to crossbows or advertising an exploit. I AM hoping you will address just which class you wish to be the ranged-damage superior? With much lower rate of fire, bow users need a little help...https://www.reddit.com/r/ddo/comment...and_crossbows/

[Ganak]

To incentivize a 50/50 ranged/melee ranger, would you consider a high melee bonus to AA capstone or level5 tier ability?


Thus u aren't saying im a 90% ranged b/c my tree cap forced it

[maddong]

Yeah crossbow can use arrow of slaying and most imbues but not the bludgeoning/etc 2ndary imbue.

Shuriken can use slayer arrow but not imbues.

[IBCrabin]

Have the AA core provide more double shot % to help reach the 100% double shot cap in epic levels.

10k star and many shot primary function is to provide range power boost rather than double shot boost.

Make many shot have a chance to proc another arrow based on dex. Similar to how shuriken expertise and advanced ninja training have 2 different calculation to produce extra shuriken.

Make the Elven AA Core a bit different than the Ranger AA Core by giving ranger 12 18 and 20 Core Range alacrity / reload speed to balance out the 10k star range power boost and the mobility (run speed and abundant step) of 12 monk build.

[Angelic-council]

How about this for the capstone; Mystic archery: +2 DEX, +2 WIS, 10% double shot, +1 DC to all arrows and you gain arcanic shot. Arcanic shot: you inflict 100 force damage (scaled with force spell power), must have bow equipped (5% chance to trigger per shot).

[Requiro]

Apologies - I did skip over this a little.

If I'm not mistaken, your ideas are actually quite similar to my own. The real significant difference is I've put in a way to keep that 4 arrow, 20 second burst ability of Manyshot in while costing the engine less overall performance.

Well... Our ideas are quite different.

First, in yours, Pure Monk Archer without Ranger levels (or Manyshoot feat) is garbage using Bow and Arrow. In my idea, Pure AA (Manyshoot feat only) is only small ahead then Pure Monk specialized in Bow and Arrow (10K Stars + Zen Archery only)

Second, in your idea Ranger with free Manyshoot and AA Tree is the best archer with no drawback, while Monkcher, must somehow managed to have full BAB, and one of: acquire about 15% more double shoot or pick Elf and spend 14 AP to get racial AA - just to be equal. For me with so much more cost, they should be better, at least like 10% more DPS.
In my proposal, Monkchers are better if they managed to have high Wisdom (>65) full BAB (Tenser) and same Double shoot as AA. Then they get about 10-18% more DPS, depend on RoF.

Third in you proposal you kept old mechanic that grant same as today Burst damage, but only for Manyshoot feat. I decided to give one time clicky with different cooldown for both feats, just to keep the balance.

In shot: Your idea is good, but need more balance. The worst part is that you made Manyshoot feat even more OP, the best and "must have" feat for all archers in game. And keep old, laggy mechanic in Burst version.

[CrackedIce]

This isn't an exhaustive list, of course. Any of the "pure" builds can probably splash at least 2 levels to do other interesting things, and we'll look at those two, but this is a good sort of "outline". Many builds will be "mostly like" one of these builds. And there's lots of other Elven builds that we expect might be fine and interesting, though for some of them you are straying from the main supported pathways (usually to get something else). Warpriest AA w/ full healing, raging Occult Slayer AA, tactical? Kensei AA, etc.

I just want to point out that I do no see Occult Slayer as a viable mix with AA - none of its clicky attacks are ranged - melee only. Plus the increase to the passive damage is all using melee power and not ranged power. Arcane encumbrance is nice on a ranged character, but the price is a bit excessive for racial AA to obtain. Now if some of the other enhancements there were ranged compatible, I would hear this.

If you are taking the uniqueness of an existing racial AA tree "seriously", I would consider taking a look at some of the other class trees to see whether you want to add some ranged power are allow some of the special attacks to work ranged as well.

[Vargouille]

A reminder that we don't expect this to be the last time we touch the Arcane Archer tree. We are sad we can't get to everything we'd like to right now, but realistically we're looking at a lot of work for update 29 coming soon, and we didn't want to push Arcane Archer entirely out of 2015. We do appreciate the many ideas here, though (some of which mirror ideas we've been thinking of anyway, or which are better than ideas we'd been thinking).

Slaying arrows are tier 5. They are the heroic equivalent of an epic moment. Don't pull back their power. If you make tier 5 abilities meh, there's no point in taking them at all, as you give up other tier 5 abilities in other trees for them. Anything you wait for, build for, and give up other options for should be powerful.

Slaying Arrows are so ridiculously powerful that we're pretty sure there's range somewhere between for "pulling back" and "meh". We also don't have any specific plans for Slaying Arrow right now - any changes to it are going to be dependent on DPS testing. Part of the reason for this is because we feel having so much of the power of AA in this one ability isn't healthy and also makes it harder to balance the tree. We would not want to have to nerf everything else in the tree just to make Slayer Arrow extra super powerful. (For instance, if we find we have to drop 250 to 200... it's still going to be incredibly awesome.)

Devs - If you don't plan more innovation to AA so at least lower the AP cost that we can take more stuff from DWS.

As mentioned several times, we have more changes planned. Just not Soon^tm, unfortunately.

I had a simple but good idea (at least I think) this morning...

Increase the duration of Many Shot for additional Ranger Levels.

Ranger 7-12 --> + 1 sec per level (6 sec total increase)
Ranger 13-18 --> + 2 sec per level (18 sec total increase)
Ranger 19 & 20 --> +5 sec per level (28 sec total increase)

Leave the cool down as is...

Balances out 10K stars and Monk levels by leaving them mostly untouched, reward and buffs ranger for studying harder at being a better ranger....

Thoughts?

An interesting idea, but Manyshot is intended to be essentially class-agnostic. That doesn't mean it's entirely impossible, but we wouldn't want to the word "Ranger" to show up anywhere directly in the ManyShot feat.

We could add new automatically granted feats to the Ranger class that affect Manyshot, but we tend to shy away from that if there's another way. Still, duration of abilities another interesting knob we could adjust, and it's good to remember all the tools in the toolbox.

I would be surprised if manyshot is conducting a collision check for every attack either.

Doubleshot and Manyshot both create additional real arrows in the world, each making their own separate, constant collision checks as they fly through the air.

It's not ideal. It's also deep in the code and risky to touch.

Additionally, it's not merely the collision checks that cause issues. Adding all of the extra on-hit effects (including damage effects) is not insignificant, and something we try to cut down on when we can. (For instance, in designing new items and abilities, etc.)

[barecm]

Hi Devs.

Can you please post a consolidated list of where we are with the proposed changes to AA? A list of things scheduled for the pre-update 29 update and what is scheduled for the future (update 29+)?

Also, if you know the time lines, when we should be able to see this on Lamannia and which update we are targeting for the first round of AA changes.

All of these ideas shooting back and forth, it would be nice if we reset to see where we are in the process.