Ranger: Arcane Archer Changes (Early Autumn Edition)

[Robai]

Just a thought.
Bow strength is a very nice bonus feat for Rangers, that means Str is a must have stat for Rangers (unless they take Improved Weapon Finesse).
So Dex Rangers have a solution.
The problem is for Wis Rangers. It doesn't look like the DC things will work in epics.

So, I came up with this idea about a new feat (a free feat to lvl 8 Rangers):
Wise Bows
At lvl 8 can use (Wis-10)/4 bonus to damage for ranged attacks (if it's higher than Str mod bonus, or Dex mod bonus if you have Improved Weapon Finesse)
At lvl 13 can use (Wis-10)/3 bonus
At lvl 18 can use (Wis-10)/2 bonus (= Wis mod bonus)
Bonus to attack is still Dex (as in Bow Strength case). Also this feat doesn't grant proficiency with bows.

There could be also a new Ranger spell that adds +2 size bonus to Wisdom and damage (similar to Ram's Might).

This feat could be useful to other classes, like Clerics (actually I've seen a Clr playing with bow, I mean it was his main dmg).

[Delacroix21]

Lag. Projectile burst is harder on the server than constant rate of fire. You'll also see us looking at auras come next year to reduce lag that way as well. We are looking at lots of way to reduce lag, from a new datacenter, to individual character abilities to monster spawns to AI pathfinding to perhaps even go so far as to reduce raid maximums to 10 players.

Lag is something we've told the players we are constantly working on.

Sev~

If this stuff happens then Shiradi will need a complete overhaul, not to mention the current garbage caster EDs. Shiradi is honestly the only viable tree for caster dps atm.

[Propane]

Food for thought and discussion...

~ Doubleshot should be worth taking for bow users

ok - let go to what ever number allowed, if 205%, fire twice with a 5% of a third shot

~ Reducing the total number of projectiles fired.

Many-shot --> less projectiles - more power per - can mix with above so might have to de-rate double shot during MS
4 arrows down to 2 arrows
6 W per arrow during many-shot (make up for lack of projectiles and procs)

~ Still allow for Monk/Ranger hybrids; a shared cooldown just removes this build.

Leave 10K stars as is or save for Monk pass
Add +3, +6, +9 W during many shot at Ranger LV 12, 18, 20 (not in core - auto grant feat at level - Improved ManyShot I, II, III)
Leaves Monk / Rangers as is more or less
The above adds a bonus to more pure rangers and doesn't hurt hybrids

@ Lag...

Assuming 1st of multiple arrows only has physics check
Assuming 1 attack roll for all arrows
Combine numbers into one display X + b + C....

[Holymunchkin]

Our DPS tests are showing some strong Deepwood Stalker Builds that can match crossbow builds in DPS tests. What are you using as the basis of your tests? I'd like to see what builds the players are testing with in case we missed anything.

Sev~

A new quest please!
Give us an hp bag kobold with a timer on live servers next to the "Hall of the Mark." This would let people measure their dps reliably.
EE: 500k
EH: 200k
EN: 100k
HE: 50k
HH: 20k
HN: 10k

[Grailhawk]

A new quest please!
Give us an hp bag kobold with a timer on live servers next to the "Hall of the Mark." This would let people measure their dps reliably.
EE: 500k
EH: 200k
EN: 100k
HE: 50k
HH: 20k
HN: 10k

You skipped casuals IMO lets future prof this thing and make some of the higher difficulty work as group tests

HC: 1000
HN: 10,000
HH: 100,000
HE: 1,000,000
EC: 10,000,000
EN: 100,000,000
EH: 1,000,000,000
EE: 10,000,000,000

Could make it a raid or at least let a raid group into it and let them test out there group DPS also.

[Emers-Lochingvyrr]

It seems that adding alot of doubleshot goes against the goal of reducing number of projectiles though. Making doubleshot work above 100% to give 3 projectiles seem very counterintuitive if the goal is to reduce the number of projectiles...

Here is what you should consider instead to reduce the number of projectiles without ruining the fun and different playstyle that comes from having large burst dps but mediocre sustained dps:

1) Allow doubleshot to work always, also during Manyshot and 10k stars.
2) Change the effect of Manyshot from 4 arrows to +300 ranged power, +100 elemental spell power, tripple proc change for on-hit effects (mortal fear being an example) and hits of 18-20 are considered vorpals. That way you get far fewer projectiles but roughly the same FUN effect from having Manyshot provide burst dps.
3) Change 10k stars from additional projectiles based on wisdom to + wis*3 ranged power, +wis elemental damage, double proc change for on-hit effects and hits of 19-20 are considered vorpals.
Now, you need to keep in mind that rangers have access to far more doubleshot from enhancements than monkchers which means they have a much higher burst dps during Manyshot and a higher sustained damage when neither MS nor 10k is running - which should even out with 10k stars.

The actual numbers should be tweaked obviously - but the idea should be sound - keep number of projectiles as low as possible but up the damage and utility from each projectile from all different sources (ranged power, spell power, procs and vorpals) to keep the build actually fun and different from the high but flat dps of rogue mechs for example.

Just, please dont ruin the fun that comes from playing an archer with burst dps that rocks the boat! (and thats what your suggestions are doing right now).

I agree whole heartedly, just because ranged damage/arrow sucks and you want to fix that doesn't mean burst archers should be inherently nerfed, they are quite different from a tactical perspective. The current proposed changes to make manyshot fire extra shots but never 4 is knee capping the burst based archers.

[UurlockYgmeov]

Good feedback so far. We are still digesting and discussing.

We are considering a change to let Doubleshot wrap; that is once Doubleshot exceeds 100% it would start to have a chance to produce a third attack. Then Doubleshot wouldn't be wasted during high buffs.

The biggest concern is actually Doublestrike, as we wouldn't be able to make the same change to Doublestrike and we would expect players to ask for that if we changed Doubleshot.

Sev~

me likey - rename doubleshot to multishot keep doublestrike the same.

[ComicRelief]

AA needs some kind of fletching. Any tier is fine, even Tier 5. Even if you don't add the +10 ranged power, though I'd prefer they get it.

Second, please increase the stack size of arrows in inventory. 1000, 500, even 200. It just needs to be (significantly) more than 100. With that plus fletching, AAs could then actually use arrows strategically. We could craft up a bunch of bane arrows and swap around depending on our target, much like how melee could craft a bunch of bane weapons and easily swap as needed.

Note that we simply cannot use quivers as they were intended, which I'm not even sure I can suss out what the actual intent was. They just don't work in the heat of battle. Instead, let us stack our arrows directly in inventory for easy hotbarring, and let us make any arrow 80% returning like mechanics can with their bolts.

In a perfect world, ammunition would be part of weaponset logic, so like I could choose an undead weaponset that would select Silver Slinger and Undead Slaying arrows, for example. Totally fine if it only works on arrows in inventory, not in quivers.

EDIT: If you wanted to add some kind of alternative to fletching, like say arrows never return but when your stack runs out, a new 100 of the same type is conjured for 20 spell points, fine by me. My main issue is that I draw closer to my next life -- pure ranger AA 100% bow user -- I really want ammunition to be a thing. It would be if I were doing a mechanic life. Seems wrong that AA doesn't get similar ranged coolness to a knucklehead with a crossbow.

AAs have "Conjure Arrows" as a tier 1 enhancement. "Conjure Arrows" creates a stack of 100, 100% returning +1 arrows. If you conjure one stack when you first log-in and slot them, you never run out of ammo...until you log-out (heck, with 100% returning, you really only need 10 [or less]; and they always 'return' to the slot, not into regular inventory, like the House D sturdy arrows). It is, effectively, "fletching". (Actually, better than "fletching", IMO.)

Granted, they are only +1 arrows and they don't have any other inherent special traits (i.e. "ooze bane", etc.), but they do take on the primary and secondary stance toggle traits, such as "elemental damage" and "metalline". I would love to see them grow in power (i.e. +2, +3, +4, etc.) with ranger level (or every "x" levels of ranger), ideally. {But then, since it is an "enhancement" bonus, and since like bonuses don't stack, the higher "+" of your ammo or bow will take precedent anyway, so might be rather moot. But I digress...} Edit: Adding "+x ranged power" would be cool, though...{end of edit}

And while I understand your reasoning for wanting to craft up a bunch of different "bane" arrows, I disagree with AA's needing "fletching". Rogue-mechanics desperately needed "fletching" because they had no way of creating their own ammo "out of thin air" like artys and AAs. Now, if you wanted to suggest that AAs get a tertiary toggle (like "bane"), I'd be all for that. But "fletching"? No, sorry - I respectfully disagree.

[ComicRelief]

Here's some changes we'd like to make to Arcane Archer sooner rather than later. *snip*

---

Arcane Archer


[LIST][*]Action Boosts reduced to 1 AP per rank[*]DC Based Arrow Stances: Includes Terror, Paralyzing, Banishing, and Smiting Arrows:

• Each becomes one rank, 2 AP.
• Each has a saving throw of 20 + Wisdom Modifier + Enchantment Spell Bonuses
• Each enhancement taken grants +1 DC with Enchantment Spells.
• Paralyze and Terror become short durations, but no additional save after the initial save. Short in this case is about 6 seconds. If you keep shooting one target, it can continue to be Paralyzed or Terrored. If you can keep a line going for Improved Precise Shot, you can keep this going on multiple enemies. To control maximum enemies, you'll need to frequently switch targets.
• Paralyzing Arrows: On save, chance to apply 3 seconds of -10% Movement and Attack speed.
• Smiting Arrows gains a chance to apply Deconstructed (slows attack speed, reduces fortification by 25%, and inflicts a 25% penalty to Repair healing)
• Banishing Arrows gains chance to inflict Pull of Reality¹ on each hit.
  
  • Pull of Reality¹: -1 PRR, -1 MRR. Stacks up to 25 times. 5 stacks fade away every 3 seconds (if no new stacks were added).

*snip*

So...for "banishing" and "smiting" stance toggles, does that mean they would now have a change to "banish/smite" on hit (and failed saving throw), not vorpal? And though not stated, I assume the standard "extra powerful [insert appropriate mob type here] will receive 100 points of damage instead of being banished/destroyed", yes? No? Third-base?

[Boneshank]

Our DPS tests are showing some strong Deepwood Stalker Builds that can match crossbow builds in DPS tests.
Sev~

LOL.
Okay.

[Seikojin]

Aren't these two objectives a little contrary? I'm still a tad confused on why number of projectiles needs to be reduced (unless by that you mean higher damage so mobs die faster mainly because I've never noticed lag after years of playing archer builds

Just to cover some potential confusion: Doublestrike and shot do not produce extra effort because it is an on attack proc that repeats the last value.

So if you swing, crit, do 300 total damage, and your double(shot or strike) procs, it repeats the same combat values (hit, crit, and damage). This sometimes double procs effects, like lit2 from GS.

So the load on both traffic in and out as well as server load are far less than rolling separate everything for extra shots from MS and 10k.

Hi,

I'm prepared to accept your claim that you see reduced performance when using that ability, but then you also need to accept mine (and other people's) claim that I/we do not. I find lag especially frustrating, and if I seriously thought one of my character's class abilities was causing significant amount of lag for myself and/or others, I wouldn't play it.

Anyway, that difference in our experiences poses a problem, which suggests that the claim that manyshot itself is a significant source of lag is not accurate.

And given the large number of people who regularly claim on these forums that they play DDO lag nearly or wholly lag free, this issue with manyshot seems like it's being invented or overstated to justify changes to the ability the developers simply prefer for other reasons.

Thanks.

I typically have no latency or lag problems in ddo. I haven't for years. Even if damage is going star wars style, my gameplay is smooth and I do not rubberband, instant die, or anything. It is also well known that damage displayed in the game can lag behind, but it will still appear in due time, without affecting actual combat.

However, when I am kitting along and I activate MS or 10k, I pause and rubberband. Most of the time it is a short pause and a quick rebound and everything is fine. But for all my machines over the years to experience the same style of problem suggests something beyond my hardware is going on. An old bug, some sort of mechanic that makes things do that, whatever.

Now using MS or 10k to do PL rainbow and shiradi rainbow while in fatesinger running procs, using something like http://ddowiki.com/page/Item:Epic_El...ngbow_of_Earth slotted with a meteoric star... Each arrow not only rolls to attack, it rolls doubleshot, confirm crit, meteoric, greater stone prison, dinsintigration, rainbow pl, rainbow stance, harmonic resonance, determining hate for sneak die, reign, turn the tide check (to add damage). Then you have all the damage die rolls for that single attack. With ranged, you are getting around 2 shots per second with most haste setups. With manyshot, you are firing 8 shots per second for 20 seconds. Each with all those proc calculations. This typically will cause some lag you would notice.

Seriously i don't understand your way of thinking as a producer.
You bring forward technical arguments and the whole discussion in this thread is about bits and bytes.

Manyshots (the old version) is a core d&d feature, a very unique action for a mmo and established for years.
The new proposed substitute however feels like removing a special move from the game.
You take away the magic and plan to replace it with some boring standard mechanisms.

So ask yourself and ask the player base just one question:
How many players will stop to play a ranger because they loved the old version?

Every change which has a chance to drive away players from DDO is pure poison.

Old manyshot is not DnD 3.5. If it was a clicky with a 12 second timer that did 4 attacks, then yeah. But then again, we wouldn't be having this situation if that was the case I know I won't stop playing my ranger even after these changes.

And yet, there is none (improvements) in AA Tree

I see some major improvements. Especially with damage.

You really need to stop talking about "internal" DPS testing when you refuse to give players the tools to test dps.. IE, the ability to dump the combat log to a text file.

Lamannia has tools. The dps kobolds do plenty. You get a time to get their 100k. That is more than enough to tell you what you are doing.

I agree whole heartedly, just because ranged damage/arrow sucks and you want to fix that doesn't mean burst archers should be inherently nerfed, they are quite different from a tactical perspective. The current proposed changes to make manyshot fire extra shots but never 4 is knee capping the burst based archers.

They are increasing damage for ranged while you shoot maybe half. I think as long as it scales the ranged power, the drop in dps won't be enough to force a reroll in anyone's eyes. Every monkcher, ranger, and manyshot lover knows how strong MS is and how powerful ranged is. So whining about nerfs to it are a little light considering the basic facts surrounding ranged and its inherent power.

[UurlockYgmeov]

Is there anyway we can get Million HP kobolds on Lamania? 100K isn't enough HP for an accurate measure considering some build's burst damage.

Or put a 5 million hp portal in the Dojo.... since portals have been used for DPS testing since land before time. ;p

[Emers-Lochingvyrr]

They are increasing damage for ranged while you shoot maybe half. I think as long as it scales the ranged power, the drop in dps won't be enough to force a reroll in anyone's eyes. Every monkcher, ranger, and manyshot lover knows how strong MS is and how powerful ranged is. So whining about nerfs to it are a little light considering the basic facts surrounding ranged and its inherent power.

I'm not talking about a drop in dps, I'm talking a drop in burst based archery (which could care less about dps). Ranged is a lot of fun in this game for some people just because it can be played in a more involved fashion than typical style (IE pressing and holding M1 until something dies.) Something that makes archery so fun for me is that I can plan, IE: Entering this room there will be a boss/champ that needs to die STAT, all the other trash is negligible, therefore a burst of damage will suffice, kite until done, move on to next plan. The increase of damage of every single arrow I fire is less important than being able to make one shot count when it really matters.

[maddong]

So assuming 20 ranger 60 dex (in LD or FOTW) 49% doubleshot with slaying arrow and core 4 dws (for shurikens I will assume elf 17 ranger 3 monk even though a jakeela build would be superior):
Bow bab 28 22% alacrity attack rate (with rs) = 76.9
76.9 * 1.49 = 114.6 shots/minute * 1.6 (crit profile 17-20/x4) = 183 * base damage per minute

Repeater bab 28 20% alacrity attack rate (I don't have the 22% attack rate but it hardly changes with repeaters, with rs rr) = 52.9 *3 = 158.7 shots/minute
158.7 * 1.16 (fixing doubleshot) = 184 shots/minute * 1.3 (crit profile 15-20/x2) = 239 * base damage per minute

Shuriken bab 28 alacrity capped attack rate = 84 (caps at 3*bab 0 attack rate)
84 * 2.69 (60% shuriken expertise + 60% shuriken expertise + 49% doubleshot) = 226 shots/minute * 1.2 (crit profile 17-20/x2) = 271 * base damage per minute (and much better on proc damage given the shots/minute)


Looking just at furyshot (slayer arrow adrenaline) itself:
Bow manyshot 2 arrows * 4 crit = 8 base + extra ranged power during manyshot
1.49 arrows * 4 crit = 5.96 base without manyshot

Repeater 3 bolts * 2 crit = 6 base

Shuriken 2.69 * 2 crit = 5.38 base


----
So for proc damage (mortal fear, etc): shuriken >> repeater >> bow
So for base damage (how much your dex damage adds): shuriken >> repeater >> bow
So for furyshot damage (slayer arrow adrenaline): manyshot bow > repeater > bow > shuriken


Conclusions:
So for furyshot (FOTW) you are best off using a bow for manyshot then switching to a repeater.
Without furyshot (LD) you are best off using a bow for manyshot then switching to shurikens (add monk to your build).
If you stay pure bow (even though it is less than ideal when not furyshotting) you are better off with 10k stars (add monk to your build, elf ranger 12/monk 6).

The only reasonable bow option is monk and this is only when in FOTW.
A pure ranged ranger will need to use repeaters.
With repeaters being fixed shurikens rule.

[blerkington]

With manyshot, you are firing 8 shots per second for 20 seconds. Each with all those proc calculations. This typically will cause some lag you would notice.

Hi,

No, manyshot doesn't do that for me. And also apparently not for some of the other people who have spoken up in this thread. So I wouldn't describe the effect you're claiming as typical at all. It is very intellectually dishonest to claim something is a fact and use it as a premise for an argument when this 'fact' is not established.

I have literally spent thousands of hours on this character now since I started playing, mostly as a ranger. So please don't tell me what my game experience is, and I won't tell you what yours is. It's no way to make progress in this discussion. I can't speak for 10k stars as it's not a build I've spent much time using.

I'd also like to point out that there is very little complaining on these forums about manyshot or 10k stars being a source of lag. Now, with the forum population being at least partly composed of inveterate complainers, I would expect that if manyshot and /or 10k stars was a reliable cause of significant lag we would have heard no end about it here, like we do about other broken abilities negatively affecting people's play experience. But it isn't, so we haven't.

Significantly, I notice that the developer dropping hints about lag being caused by manyshot has so far declined to answer my questions in an earlier post (#321) about it. It really is time for them to pony up about how significant a lag problem manyshot is when you have a number of people in this thread saying it is never a problem for them.

These are the reasons why I'm calling shenanigans on the claim that manyshot causes an amount of lag which is significant enough to justify a change to how the feat works. Now, if we were being presented with an alternative which did not have the serious consequences identified for hybrid and burst builds, I'd be far more inclined to get on board with a change. But the alternative being proposed now is really only useful to some full-time archery builds, but not others. It really messes up certain builds which have been supported until now and should have a place in the game.

I think Mikarddo has made some very good suggestions about solutions, as have some other posters. I also made a suggestion far back in this thread about splitting the Tier 5 slayer arrow enhancement into two parts, leaving it as it is for burst builds, and offering the alternative of a substantial bonus to doubleshot (possibly also including a reduction or removal of the doubleshot penalty after manyshot). With that, if manyshot were left as is, it could be a solution allowing people to choose between burst and more consistent damage output, so full-time archers, burst archers, and hybrid melee/manyshotters are all supported. The only issue left would be to work out how balance it for 10k stars builds, which is hardly insurmountable.

Thanks.

[EllisDee37]

AAs have "Conjure Arrows" as a tier 1 enhancement.

Those are the "cruddy +1 returners" I repeatedly referenced.

Rogue-mechanics desperately needed "fletching" because they had no way of creating their own ammo "out of thin air" like artys and AAs.

Sure they can. Rogues get UMD natively, and can buy both Conjure Bolts (+1) and Flame Arrow (Flaming) scrolls from vendors to create 1000 and 500 bolts repectively.

[Holymunchkin]

You skipped casuals IMO lets future prof this thing and make some of the higher difficulty work as group tests

HC: 1000
HN: 10,000
HH: 100,000
HE: 1,000,000
EC: 10,000,000
EN: 100,000,000
EH: 1,000,000,000
EE: 10,000,000,000

Could make it a raid or at least let a raid group into it and let them test out there group DPS also.

Ermahgerd amazing idea.

[PsychoBlonde]

Do you want to kill things faster with DPS play a pure Ranger AA.

Do you want to be a CC Archer play a monkcher, or a pure Ranger who won't be as good at cc but will do more damage. Crit multiplier is a big deal most monkchers won't have that and a lot of the current monkchers builds won't even have crit threat from Stalker.

Earth Stance. So, yes, Monkchers get crit multiplier.

[blerkington]

Earth Stance. So, yes, Monkchers get crit multiplier.

Hi,

Good point. Plus, a crit multiplier is likely to be available from the elf AA tree too.

And as someone with a very good understanding of ranged builds has already pointed out, the proposed changes may just make the ideal archer build an elf or human 12 ranger/6 monk/2 whatever. Crit range extension, crit multiplier, high RoF from 10k also leading to the most benefit from imbues, and good arrow DC by being WIS based.

That looks suspiciously to me like an archer build which can have it all, despite our developers' assertions having it all is a bad thing and should not happen, for some classes anyway. Unless I am missing something, it looks better than a pure ranger.

Thanks.

[HernandoCortez]

Right now ranger wisdom is useless. It looks like you want people to invest on wisdom, but I don't think that is the way to go. You should add useful ranger spells.