Ranger: Arcane Archer Changes (Early Autumn Edition)

[Enoach]

Our DPS tests are showing some strong Deepwood Stalker Builds that can match crossbow builds in DPS tests. What are you using as the basis of your tests? I'd like to see what builds the players are testing with in case we missed anything.

Sev~

I use a 12/8 Elf Ftr/Wiz. I use EK tree just to 2nd Core, but use the Improved Shield and the Arcane Barrier.

I use the Elf Cores to improve my Point Blank Range and to Unlock AA and for Grace (saves on needing Bow Strength)

The rest is spent in the AA Tree.

Now I like the direction of adding Spell Power to the Imbues. I like the idea of adding Enchantment to the DC bonus. I've been thinking about TOEE Bows for Spell Power and Thunderforge for DCs (being Two Handed has an advantage) - So there will still be lots of reason to Switch - Such as DC to CC the room and switch to Spell Power to grab that extra damage or kill the boss.

Now I understand if on the DCs that Dexterity may not be on the table, but please consider Intelligence and Charisma as options as well. That way the Elf AA builds can also be an option with the DC options. I ask because my main attribute is Dex but I can balance out Dex and Int to have a decent DC for CC options.

I really am looking forward to seeing how the Elf version pans out...

[Seikojin]

Lag. Projectile burst is harder on the server than constant rate of fire. You'll also see us looking at auras come next year to reduce lag that way as well. We are looking at lots of way to reduce lag, from a new datacenter, to individual character abilities to monster spawns to AI pathfinding to perhaps even go so far as to reduce raid maximums to 10 players.

Lag is something we've told the players we are constantly working on.

Sev~

Biggest fix for lag, combine components in the sent and received packets instead of having each damage effect in its own component in a packet. Make this client side and send one codified string that the server understands to turn into segmented damage for combat. I know the packets get compressed into a string, but that contains everything. I am saying to make damage and combat data smaller in that string so it takes much less space in an already small space (data packets).

Good feedback so far. We are still digesting and discussing.

We are considering a change to let Doubleshot wrap; that is once Doubleshot exceeds 100% it would start to have a chance to produce a third attack. Then Doubleshot wouldn't be wasted during high buffs.

The biggest concern is actually Doublestrike, as we wouldn't be able to make the same change to Doublestrike and we would expect players to ask for that if we changed Doubleshot.

Sev~

I have no problem with doubleshot getting over 100%, but I definitely understand the community concern over doublestrike. Why not add in doublestrike details that says it caps at 100%. Then put a cap for doubleshot, like 200%. This way there is a defined limit that can be hit.

[mikarddo]

Lag. Projectile burst is harder on the server than constant rate of fire. You'll also see us looking at auras come next year to reduce lag that way as well. We are looking at lots of way to reduce lag, from a new datacenter, to individual character abilities to monster spawns to AI pathfinding to perhaps even go so far as to reduce raid maximums to 10 players.

Lag is something we've told the players we are constantly working on.

Sev~

It seems that adding alot of doubleshot goes against the goal of reducing number of projectiles though. Making doubleshot work above 100% to give 3 projectiles seem very counterintuitive if the goal is to reduce the number of projectiles...

Here is what you should consider instead to reduce the number of projectiles without ruining the fun and different playstyle that comes from having large burst dps but mediocre sustained dps:

1) Allow doubleshot to work always, also during Manyshot and 10k stars.
2) Change the effect of Manyshot from 4 arrows to +300 ranged power, +100 elemental spell power, tripple proc change for on-hit effects (mortal fear being an example) and hits of 18-20 are considered vorpals. That way you get far fewer projectiles but roughly the same FUN effect from having Manyshot provide burst dps.
3) Change 10k stars from additional projectiles based on wisdom to + wis*3 ranged power, +wis elemental damage, double proc change for on-hit effects and hits of 19-20 are considered vorpals.
Now, you need to keep in mind that rangers have access to far more doubleshot from enhancements than monkchers which means they have a much higher burst dps during Manyshot and a higher sustained damage when neither MS nor 10k is running - which should even out with 10k stars.

The actual numbers should be tweaked obviously - but the idea should be sound - keep number of projectiles as low as possible but up the damage and utility from each projectile from all different sources (ranged power, spell power, procs and vorpals) to keep the build actually fun and different from the high but flat dps of rogue mechs for example.

Just, please dont ruin the fun that comes from playing an archer with burst dps that rocks the boat! (and thats what your suggestions are doing right now).

Edit: After sleeping on it this has an issue still. With the current x4 arrows the odds of getting atleast one crit and killing a line of trash with IPS is good - with the suggestion I made here the odds of getting a crit is low and the fact that when you get a crit it hits that much harder is often wasted on trash. I will be posting a modified suggestion later on is this thread.

[Thar]

Those suggestions don't provide solutions for what we are trying to change.

~ Doubleshot should be worth taking for bow users.
~ Reducing the total number of projectiles fired.
~ Still allow for Monk/Ranger hybrids; a shared cooldown just removes this build.

Moving some of the power of bow builds out of Manyshot and into other areas such as enhancements would be a bonus.


As an aside, having 10K Stars work only with shuriken will not take away the build; it will just require a weapon swap to shuriken as part of the attack chain. We don't want to encourage constant weapon swaps as part of ongoing attack chains.

Sev~

if doubleshot caps and is useless over 100 then it's not worth adding it to a point where it will go over 100?

the projectiles fires are less than a repeating crossbow (pre update that broke them) so people are just asking for the same. manyshot was something different that made you feel uber for 20 secs. i see why you may want to change this but still disagree it's a positive change. especially since the cooldown arguement was only to nerf monchers in the first place a while back. it NEVER was said that rangers alone were too great.

a shared cooldown will adjust the build but not remove it due to AA being one of the few archer pre's. I don't see how AA Ranger competes with moncher at any level. This should be the focus of the pass AA Ranger or you need to lump all ranged into a pass together. delay this if it needs more time to do it right.

[Seikojin]

Hi,

So the claim is that manyshot causes lag. That disagrees with my own experience, and according to what some of the other people posting in this thread have said, theirs as well. If manyshot is a source of lag, why do I not see any change in game performance the vast majority of the time I use that ability?

Are you prepared to state, categorically, that manyshot is a significant source of lag for the game and that changing it will result in noticeable improvements for the whole community? This is a very strong claim and one which I think will be hard to support in view of the player experience.

On the other hand, a far more plausible claim is that manyshot does consume some additional resource when used, much like many other character abilities. Perhaps when several of these resource intensive abilities are used at once, lag will sometimes occur, but most of the time it isn't a problem. As well as a far more likely scenario, that seems like a far less pressing reason to change how one of the ranger's core abilities works.

Thanks.

I will disagree on this since I have ran several machines and in each case, doing things like manyshot or things that increase the amount of rolled attacks indeed slowed combat down and gameplay down to a crawl.

I could even be alone with a screaming machine and hitting manyshot while using items with abilities, stacked with rainbow, did cause a significant issue with gameplay.

The same occurred when doing tons of aura bursts or having many aoe dots lingering around and running through them. All things that they want to work on.

[Grace_ana]

I never see lag when I use manyshot or 10K stars. I do see immense lag when I face archer mobs. I know next to nothing about programming, so I won't pretend otherwise, but from a player perspective, I'm not really sure of the difference between archer mobs and archer players. And if there is a difference (and while playing there seems to be), how will reducing projectiles fix things? And if multiple projectiles is a serious issue, why was mechanic given such a huge boost in multiple, faster projectiles? And if reducing the number of concurrent projectiles is a goal, why is alacrity being ignored?

I really am confused.

[blerkington]

I will disagree on this since I have ran several machines and in each case, doing things like manyshot or things that increase the amount of rolled attacks indeed slowed combat down and gameplay down to a crawl.

I could even be alone with a screaming machine and hitting manyshot while using items with abilities, stacked with rainbow, did cause a significant issue with gameplay.

The same occurred when doing tons of aura bursts or having many aoe dots lingering around and running through them. All things that they want to work on.

Hi,

I'm prepared to accept your claim that you see reduced performance when using that ability, but then you also need to accept mine (and other people's) claim that I/we do not. I find lag especially frustrating, and if I seriously thought one of my character's class abilities was causing significant amount of lag for myself and/or others, I wouldn't play it.

Anyway, that difference in our experiences poses a problem, which suggests that the claim that manyshot itself is a significant source of lag is not accurate.

And given the large number of people who regularly claim on these forums that they play DDO lag nearly or wholly lag free, this issue with manyshot seems like it's being invented or overstated to justify changes to the ability the developers simply prefer for other reasons.

Thanks.

[Blastyswa]

even go so far as to reduce raid maximums to 10 players.
Sev~

No. I know this is just something you're putting out there with no definite plans yet, but no. There's bad lag outside of raids in just 6 man instances, and sometimes even with smaller parties (Although I experience that very infrequently myself, I often see other people in parties complaining about it.) I'm personally using the best gaming hardware I can find within my price budget (Alienware) and have very very little lag outside of places like Temple of the Deathwyrm and Defiler of the Just. Reducing aura spamming and projectile count are great and all, as well as the new data center (Which I would assume will fix a vast majority of lag issues). If a solution is needed after that for lag, I'd rather just deal with a little lag in some raids than have to cut two players out of my raid group. Implementing this would be far more likely to make me quit than anything else I could imagine the developers doing (With the exception of autogranting triple completionist to everyone, or reducing max players in raids to 6 or something).

[Thar]

Our DPS tests are showing some strong Deepwood Stalker Builds that can match crossbow builds in DPS tests. What are you using as the basis of your tests? I'd like to see what builds the players are testing with in case we missed anything.

Sev~

I ran an archer 18 ranger 1 rogue 1 monk through 6 epic lives. I never experience lag from DPS. I experienced lag primarily in server i2049 and i2050 in a quest. otherwise it is mainly when cove is up or some event, and occurs in a quest or town (ie independent of combat) and when monsters 'pop' ie when things draw like in FOT when you first fall down (or any other large spawn locations) vs any full on dps mode. so in essence then i'm NOT shooting yet as i didn't get to react to the spawns yet.

one guildie says that if we don't try to move, the servers catch up and it goes away. it does seem to help sometimes. like it lost track of us somehow and has to relocate all the players.

[EllisDee37]

Our DPS tests are showing some strong Deepwood Stalker Builds that can match crossbow builds in DPS tests. What are you using as the basis of your tests? I'd like to see what builds the players are testing with in case we missed anything.

I trust that your DPS tests include crossbows getting target-specific ammo while longbows only get the cruddy +1 repeaters from AA.

Due to fletching, crossbow users can keep their ammo in inventory and switch to the best ammo for any given target. Without fletching, archers are stuck with quivers which simply do not work for switching ammo.

Here are some thoughts for fixing quivers.

Granted ammo only stacks to 100 in inventory, but fletching makes that equivalent to a stack of 500. Probably not enough for a repeater or manyshot build, but plenty good enough for a great crossbow mechanic. (This imbalance is why I suggest stack size be increased to at least 200, and that AAs should get fletching.)

[Failedlegend]

perhaps even go so far as to reduce raid maximums to 10 players.

Lag is something we've told the players we are constantly working on.

Sev~

Ok Sev I get that some people are VERY loud about the "crippling game breaking" lag they've supposedly experienced and I'm not saying that SOME lag doesn't exist but I'm already annoyed that so much dev time is dedicated to such a minor issue but i can mostly ignore it since it doesnt directly affect me too much but reducing raid size is ridiculous as it DOES directly affect me. Please don't punish the players who actually play the game instead of making 27 new threads about lag on a daily basis and whilst your at it please stop nerfing things in the name of lag reduction.

[Qhualor]

Hi,

So the claim is that manyshot causes lag. That disagrees with my own experience, and according to what some of the other people posting in this thread have said, theirs as well. If manyshot is a source of lag, why do I not see any change in game performance the vast majority of the time I use that ability?

Are you prepared to state, categorically, that manyshot is a significant source of lag for the game and that changing it will result in noticeable improvements for the whole community? This is a very strong claim and one which I think will be hard to support in view of the player experience.

On the other hand, a far more plausible claim is that manyshot does consume some additional resource when used, much like many other character abilities. Perhaps when several of these resource intensive abilities are used at once, lag will sometimes occur, but most of the time it isn't a problem. As well as a far more likely scenario, that seems like a far less pressing reason to change how one of the ranger's core abilities works.

Thanks.

I'm not trying to defend Sev or be argumentative with you, but I do think he is right about lag. When I use Manyshot or any other combat maneuvers, it's common to see numbers scrolling seconds later. This is a common complaint by other players. I feel your argument might have to do more with the change to Manyshot than the reason for the change. I honestly can't come up with a viable counterargument for why Manyshot is being changed. I won't know until after these changes and try it out for myself if this will be a positive change or not. I simply suggest that it might be better to suggest giving your feedback on what you would rather see done with Manyshot than focusing more on the reason for the change.

[Lauf]

Lag is something we've told the players we are constantly working on.

Sev~

Bravo.

no cynicism. a genuine heartfelt applause.

[Robai]

Lag. Projectile burst is harder on the server than constant rate of fire. You'll also see us looking at auras come next year to reduce lag that way as well. We are looking at lots of way to reduce lag, from a new datacenter, to individual character abilities to monster spawns to AI pathfinding to perhaps even go so far as to reduce raid maximums to 10 players.

Lag is something we've told the players we are constantly working on.

Sev~

Arrows vs characters equipped with shields adds a noticeable lag (this was always reproducible when I farmed renown with lvl 15 PDK in gianthold, last time I did that was like 3 months ago).
This is what I remember:
- the main account (using an epic toon) zergs a completion in Trial by Fire on HE
- two other accounts are lvl 15 PDK piking at the start, but I move them to loot couple chests after main account is recalled (the shortcut gate is open)
- when I moved the PDK toons I used a speed boost (Rallying Cry)
- they always had 1-2 sec lag when archers tried to hit them while flying from main gate, also sometimes had some lag during movement on land (while dodging arrows or something like that).
- in some rare cases lag was much longer and I did drop down to the bottom of the pit (I think happened twice per ~60 runs).
- I've played on WinXP 32bit if that matters (usually I had much less lag than others, it was a fast performance for me, even using 3 accounts, except for game crashes when zoning to some areas like Sands/Necro4/etc.).

Sorry that this is off topic, but it looks like you are interesting in any lag reports and I don't remember if I already bug reported this or not.

[Thar]

Ok Sev I get that some people are VERY loud about the "crippling game breaking" lag they've supposedly experienced and I'm not saying that SOME lag doesn't exist but I'm already annoyed that so much dev time is dedicated to such a minor issue but i can mostly ignore it since it doesnt directly affect me too much but reducing raid size is ridiculous as it DOES directly affect me. Please don't punish the players who actually play the game instead of making 27 new threads about lag on a daily basis and whilst your at it please stop nerfing things in the name of lag reduction.

ha ha yes you cant nerf for lag reduction and make warlocks throw 14 different spells bouncing around targets. that has to slow the engine down too...

[blerkington]

I'm not trying to defend Sev or be argumentative with you, but I do think he is right about lag. When I use Manyshot or any other combat maneuvers, it's common to see numbers scrolling seconds later. This is a common complaint by other players. I feel your argument might have to do more with the change to Manyshot than the reason for the change. I honestly can't come up with a viable counterargument for why Manyshot is being changed. I won't know until after these changes and try it out for myself if this will be a positive change or not. I simply suggest that it might be better to suggest giving your feedback on what you would rather see done with Manyshot than focusing more on the reason for the change.

Hi,

I appreciate your tact.

Numbers scrolling slowly may be a symptom of lag, and I already mentioned occasionally seeing the same thing in an earlier post. However, I also mentioned that when it occurs, I can still operate my character normally. That is what really matters to me.

As for it being a common complaint, just take a look at the posts in this part of the thread. You have some people saying using manyshot causes them lag, while you have others say that it doesn't. Perhaps you are just seeing the examples that agree with your own experience and discarding the others.

I am quite willing to go on record to state that even in groups, with large numbers of of enemies around which are being affected by repeater crossbow fire and proc heavy spellcasting, activating manyshot does not frequently seem to reduce game performance at my end, nor have I noticed other people complaining about it. While I think that manyshot does consume more server resource for a short period of time, the claim that it's producing a significant effect, which is more to blame than a multitude of other sources, just seems like codswallop.

I've stated my counterarguments for the manyshot changes several times already in this thread. The reasons I am unhappy with the changes relate to consequences coming from a reduced rate of fire. I feel that the changes are very disadvantageous to melee/ranged hybrids (a style acknowledged and supposedly supported by the developers) and burst based ranged builds such as Fury archers. This is because for the period of manyshot, additional damage and effects which come from a high RoF will be halved. If you are charging a blitz, hoping for a mortal fear proc, hoping for a rainbow or nerve venom proc, then high RoF is crucial and the adding some ranged power and doubleshot is just no substitute within those 20 seconds.

My suggestion for the manyshot 'problem' is very simple; that the feat be left alone. If there are a number of potential sources of lag, then work on those first while trying to avoid ruining how certain builds work, and reevaluate the results at the end. It is just unbelievable to me that one of the possible outcomes of the ranger pass being floated is to ruin how one of the core abilities works for legitimate builds, when other solutions are available. It's particularly egregious when other playstyles which have similar characteristics (like high RoF) or use lag-inducing effects (such as warlocks, proc heavy AOE casters, etc) will continue to be supported.

Thanks.

[Yamato-San]

Those suggestions don't provide solutions for what we are trying to change.

~ Doubleshot should be worth taking for bow users.
~ Reducing the total number of projectiles fired.
~ Still allow for Monk/Ranger hybrids; a shared cooldown just removes this build.

Moving some of the power of bow builds out of Manyshot and into other areas such as enhancements would be a bonus.


As an aside, having 10K Stars work only with shuriken will not take away the build; it will just require a weapon swap to shuriken as part of the attack chain. We don't want to encourage constant weapon swaps as part of ongoing attack chains.

Sev~

Seriously i don't understand your way of thinking as a producer.
You bring forward technical arguments and the whole discussion in this thread is about bits and bytes.

Manyshots (the old version) is a core d&d feature, a very unique action for a mmo and established for years.
The new proposed substitute however feels like removing a special move from the game.
You take away the magic and plan to replace it with some boring standard mechanisms.

So ask yourself and ask the player base just one question:
How many players will stop to play a ranger because they loved the old version?

Every change which has a chance to drive away players from DDO is pure poison.

[Requiro]

Lag. Projectile burst is harder on the server than constant rate of fire. (...)
Sev~

And yet, there is none (improvements) in AA Tree

[Xionanx]

Our DPS tests are showing some strong Deepwood Stalker Builds that can match crossbow builds in DPS tests. What are you using as the basis of your tests? I'd like to see what builds the players are testing with in case we missed anything.

Sev~

You really need to stop talking about "internal" DPS testing when you refuse to give players the tools to test dps.. IE, the ability to dump the combat log to a text file.

[blerkington]

You really need to stop talking about "internal" DPS testing when you refuse to give players the tools to test dps.. IE, the ability to dump the combat log to a text file.

Hi,

I'd like for us to have that too, a larger buffer of information in the log and text file dumps. I'd also like better tools in game for us to test DPS, like enemies with larger HP totals, configurable amounts of fortification, etc. A total of damage done in the quest xp window would be nice too.

But in particular if developers are going to make claims about DPS comparisons, we need video evidence showing the results along with full information about gear and build. Showing your work, maths-wise, would also be useful.

Very recently, one developer made the somewhat extraordinary claim that a DWS ranger build in Fury put out comparable DPS to a swashbuckler bard in DC. No details were provided about build, gear or test conditions.

Now we have a manyshot proposal which will presumably reduce the damage output of the Fury based ranger because that massive burst of damage from furyshot will be reduced. Does this mean that those tests will be rerun, and that DWS will be adjusted again, so soon? Forgive my cynicism, but I'd very surprised.

Similarly, we've heard in this thread that a DWS ranger can apparently put out comparable or better damage than a crossbow rogue. But again, no evidence, no information about build and gear, and no maths to support the claims.

It's these huge black holes of information which in my view really raise questions about the credibility of these claims. If the key information is not going to be provided, the developer team might as well stop claiming test results support your desired outcomes.

We assume you do some sort of testing before making changes, but claiming success from testing is of no use without all of the information about the test and with us lacking the ability to replicate it.

Thanks.